Parents... WWYD???

[brockash]

ugh....so my 7 year old was at school last week and and a 14 year old was teasing him and pretty much up in his face... he got frustrated with the 14year old and told her to leave him alone (multiple times) eventually pushed her away from him (did I mention my 7 year old is a peanut of a kid (around 40 pounds) and the 14 year old is about 5'2 and about 125 pounds?) anyway the 14 year old stumbled (I think she was sort of caught offguard), stumbled and ended up tripping over another kid and fell and hit her face.. and fractured her nose! the school ruled it an accident (teacher witnesses) and did not take any action against our son other than to talk to him about not pushing other kids and actually addressed the bullying/teasing from the older kid as that is what sort of esclated the situation.. (and from what I understand from other mothers, this 14 year old has developed quite the reputation of bullying)

While I can see how the maturity of a 7 year old would commonly react this way, we have still addressed this with our son... in our family, you DO NOT put your hands on someone (much less a girl!) unless it's to get them off of you... someone using ugly words in an ugly way do not justify physical contact. he has NOT been a happy camper getting his first real taste of being grounded. (because of his age, to reinforce the lesson, we talk each day about why he has these loss of privilages and how to handle this type of situation in the future) I do recoginize that he is 7 and she was 14 and more than twice his size, however, DH & I felt it very important to make sure our son knows that we do not find it acceptable for him to use physical contact to resolve a problem. (use your mind.. thats what makes us different from the animals!). Don't get me wrong.. I feel a child should always be able to defend themselves but they should not let "words" be the catylist to physical violence... afterall they are just words... someone saying them does not make them TRUE!

well, frankly, I'm surprised at the # of people (friends/family/coworkers) that all have commented that they would NOT have punished DS if he was theirs... keep in mind, we did not beat him or anything..he has lost some privilages(no tv, electronic's etc for a week) and that's all... so I guess my question is how would you have addressed this had you been the mom of the 7 year old?

Honestly, you're the parent and I think what you're doing isn't too extreme one way or the other. If it was me, honestly I probably would have talked to him about it, but that would have been it. He wouldn't have been punished, if what you say is exactly what happened, with teachers backing it up. However, a lot of that has to do with the kind of kid my ds is. He's very non-confrontational, and puts up with a lot from other kids. It's just who he is, and who he's been his whole life. My dd, on the other hand, well so far, she's certainly shown that she's not afraid to stand up for herself, so I may think differently when it comes to her. The fact that the other kid involved was twice his age, over 3 times his size...well I'm sure her bullying him in his face, made him feel threatened, and it's not like he tried to hurt her, he just tried to get away from her, and you probably wouldn't have even known about it, had the 14 year old not tripped over someone else and fallen. Like I said, every parent is different, and I don't think what you're doing is extreme in any way, so I'm sure it's fine. I'm a pretty strict parent (many times have been told I'm too strict,) but knowing my ds and his character and the fact that I know his first instinct certainly isn't to fight back with someone, I would've just talked about what happened, and left it at that. It'd probably be different if I knew my child was more of a "fighter" type or at least not one that avoids conflict.

ETA: If the girl had been in the same grade/age as my ds...I'd probably feel differently, and he probably would have gotten in some trouble for pushing a girl his same age. Mainly, because I don't think he'd really feel threatened, more just annoyed, which is different IMO.

 

[pilesoflaundry]

I don't punish my kids for stuff like that. I used to take the high road, there are too many bullies in our neighborhood and in this school and I have told my kids to take the no prisoners approach and I will deal with the school if necessary.

Nothing is done. We have a very kumaya type of principal and the brats know how to work it and tell him it was a misunderstanding or they did't do anything and then it's all "oh ok kids are kids, no biggie."

He didn't push her to hurt her like that. He didn't punch her in the nose. He hit is point and well she got what she had coming to her.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Well... I wouldn't have punished my kids, but that's because I'd be more worried that the 14yo might be out for revenge once she gets back to school. I'd be working with my kids to have a plan in place for the next time this kid gets in their face.

I don't want my kids to get hurt, and I think that might be a real possibility in this case. I also don't want my kids to stop telling me about conflicts at school, and I'd be worried that if I punish them in circumstances like this - they just won't tell me the next time it happens.

Also, I happen to know that MY own kids would be horrified at having actually hurt another kid bad enough to make them bleed. So really, that'd be punishment enough in my mind. I'd still have a chat with them about unintended consequences, "see what pushing people can lead to?" and responsibility, of course.

But - he's your kid, and your parenting style is different from mine. You didn't do anything wrong. I just would have handled it differently.

I agree.

I would not have punished my 7 yo in any way. I don't condone getting physical, but someone is "up in his face", I think he had every right to push her away.
I want to teach my kids to stick up for them selves and not be bullied.
I would have handled it differently but like another poster said, we all have our own style, and you did nothing wrong, just different than what I would have done.

MTE.

Huge difference between 14 and 7. I wouldn't have punished him- it was self defense, frankly maybe she'll think twice before messing with younger smaller kids again.

I hope that is what the 14 year old learned.

But I'd be concerned that the bully would be plotting revenge. I bet she was embarrassed that a 7 year old was able to defend himself against her, especially if other people saw her fall. Bullies don't usually handle "one-upmanship" (for lack of a better words) very well. So I would be helping my child anticipate a retaliation (stay near teachers and/or walk with buddies).

I don't think your DS meant to hurt the 14 year old. I think intention is key. He wanted her out of his face (to me it wasn't just about words, being in his face was very aggressive). It's instinctive to either move away (which he might not have been able to do) or push back. Fight or flight. He was being defensive.

OP as others have stated, people have different parenting styles. But I would let him know it's okay to defend yourself using a variety of methods and circumstances are important. Sometimes you may have to resort to being physical if your safety is on the line. In our house, that is okay.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

I will say with all honestly that I have no idea how I would handle this situation. My son got in trouble once for roughhousing with a girl his own age (who started it). We were vehement about "you don't hit girls".

At the same time, this kid is twice his age.

But I do have a question: How did your son get into a situation where he was in school and interacting with an 8th or 9th grader? Especially in a way where the older girl is intimidating your son?

Our school district is in one big campus, but the high schoolers and the elementary kids don't see each other (besides going to see the high school play or band or something).

 

[ccgirl]

As I was surprised myself, I just wanted to clear up the misconception that intent does not come into play with simple battery. A little OT but, I'm sure most of us have heard stories of adults that got into fights where one adult punched another and they fell, hit their head, and died. The inflicting adult was charged with manslaughter even though it was an "accident." Once he pushed her, he commited simple battery. I would definitely be at that school questioning why the 14 year old was not punished. Or, why there were teachers around but the 14 year old was still allowed to "bully" him. Did the teacher's not intervene?

Op - you obviously care very deeply for your son and his well being. Don't let other people make you feel bad because they have different parenting styles.

 

[2disneyboys]

OP - I think you handled it correctly. Although, silently, I would have been proud of my DS for standing up for himself words are not a reason to lay hands on anyone ...ever. We teach our kids to walk away. Spoke to my family member that is a school resource officer and was told that your son could have actually been charged with battery and you could have legally been responsible for any medical bills. Had he been hit first that would have been self defense but pushing someone that did not physically touch you first would not have been considered self defense. As others, we teach our children to defend themselves, when appropriate. Although words are hurtful, we teach the turn the other cheek approach. If they are hit first, then than may hit back. Just another side of thought here.

This was actually mine & DH's biggest concern with this and or future incidents. We have stressed to our boys that they are not to stand there and "take" it, however, I don't want my kid to be the one who initiated the physical contact. I know that he is 7 (turned 8 a few days after the incident) and that is a big difference in being an adult.. but when you are an adult standing in front of a judge because someone brought you up on battery or assualt charges.. the judges does not care who "said" what.. it's who "did" what first that allows you to use the self defense argement or lose the right to that argument. While he's a ways off from that adult, we have always had the rules in our house that hands to yourself and another PP mentioned consistancy.. when my boys have pushed each other (or cousins) .. you know... typical sibling behavior... they are punished by losing a privilage. which is the reason we felt it necessary to remain consistant and have some sort of punishment (please read my prior comment's regarding the punishment that was choosen... it was not a "painful" punishment for my child.. there were lots of worse privilages I could have taken from him had the incident been different.) Lord knows I hope my child never has to stand in front of a judge though!

After reading everyones opinions/perspectives (thank you all for sharing your thoughts, its really given me something to think about!) I am still ok with having "punished him" however, in retrospect, I would have maybe made the grounding for just a day or 2 vs 5 days. I talked with him this morning and he told me that he understood that it was ok to tell the girl to leave him alone and that he should have called out to the adult that was nearby or just yelled louder to "leave me alone" so the adults nearby would realise that they were not just playing or something. the school is a very small school (aroudn 250 students from K - 12th grade) and while my boys have gone there a combined 8 years (older brother in older grade and preschool etc) I can count on 2 hands the number of times all the kids were in the same area vs seperated by "group" it just happend to work out this way on that day during that 15 min time bracket! . everyone was excited about superbowel weekend and all the kids hand on the team jerserys (which was actually the source of the teasing.. he likes redskins, and the girl likes some other team and she was picking on his team and him for liking the team.) That morning when I went to the school to talk to him and the principal after the incident we reminded him then that is it ok to defend your self, but that he should have handled it differently rather than pushing the kid. and we actually don't differentiate between hands off girls vs boys because the only time I want your hands on someone is if you are defending yourself from a physical attack (or when your married in like 30 years, but that's a whole different thread that I hope to have MANY years before I have to write!!)

Thanks again everyone...

 

[Magpie]

I know that he is 7 (turned 8 a few days after the incident) and that is a big difference in being an adult.. but when you are an adult standing in front of a judge because someone brought you up on battery or assualt charges.. the judges does not care who "said" what.. it's who "did" what first that allows you to use the self defense argement or lose the right to that argument.

I'm thinking any judge sitting behind his or her bench, looking at a great hulking 14yo girl and your little peanut of a boy, would probably throw the case out. Once he quit laughing, anyway.

I know there's some bad ones out there, but most judges in my experience are not unreasonable people.

 

[StitchFanZ]

Since there is a chance they may be close during parent drop off time as the weather gets better, I think I'd stay around and chat with another parent or just watching the kids play until they go into thier classroom for the rest of the school year.

 

[2disneyboys]

I'm thinking any judge sitting behind his or her bench, looking at a great hulking 14yo girl and your little peanut of a boy, would probably throw the case out. Once he quit laughing, anyway.I know there's some bad ones out there, but most judges in my experience are not unreasonable people.

LOL.. ITA!!! to be honest, my mother even said (between snickers) I know "what" you have to do, I'm just glad it's YOU that has to do it. and yes, I know if "his current case" were to esclate to court under it's current conditions, the judge would prob invite my little guy up to the stand to witness fussing @ the bully, but honestly, our intentions were for future behavior... it would not be fair to start out with the "training" when he's a teenager so we always try for consitancy.

As I told my MIL... I work in an office and DH works down on the docks and just about every day there are coworkers or customers that we just want to SMACK and lots of times would be totally justified in doing so.... however... you can't just go thru life not knowing how to practice self control...and that was our goal.. to make him think about the situation and think of other solutions other than the choice he made. I think he "got" it just based on the responses we have gotten from him in our conversations over the past week.

<whew>now if we can just get through to the next crisis!

 

[Trish Bessette]

OP - I think you're a great Mom who really took the time and effort to turn this into a life learning lesson for your DS.

And I appreciate how calm you were about the whole event. I think I would have wanted to go have a little chat with that bully!!

My DD's were in a small school too - K-8th grade with only 120 students so I know exactly what your situation was like.

Hopefully this is a closed case and nothing else will come up!

Great job once again

 

[ccgirl]

I'm thinking any judge sitting behind his or her bench, looking at a great hulking 14yo girl and your little peanut of a boy, would probably throw the case out. Once he quit laughing, anyway.

I know there's some bad ones out there, but most judges in my experience are not unreasonable people.

Actually, I'm willing to bet the judge would ask if he was hit first?? She was making fun on the sports team on his jersey as she preferred another team. Last time I checked; that was not grounds for laying your hands on someone (although, it is not nice). Size would not matter in this case.

 

[disneyfreakk]

My Dad always told me that boys shouldn't hit girls, but also a girl should not put herself in a boys position by hitting him either. And that if I hit a boy, I should be fair game. That always made sence to me and I still live by this today. (not that I have ever been in a fight, regardless of gender... lol)

I think your son had a fight or flight moment, and that pushing her was his gut reaction. No, I would not have punished him. But I understand why you did.

 

[15isto2]

I agree with this post. I'm sure that at 7 yrs old, having a much older person in his face made him feel defensive and scared and he reacted instinctively by trying to distance himself from his aggressor. He tried using words but she ignored them. I think he reacted as well as he could have so I would not have punished him. I would also be afraid that the next time he is bullied, he would submit to the bully because he'd be worried about being punished if he stood up for himself.
BTW - I'm very small and was in similar situations as a child where I've felt threatened enough to push or even hit people to get them to get away from me. Sometimes you can't just walk away (like when you're cornered).

Exactly my thoughts

 

[2disneyboys]

Actually, I'm willing to bet the judge would ask if he was hit first?? She was making fun on the sports team on his jersey as she preferred another team. Last time I checked; that was not grounds for laying your hands on someone (although, it is not nice). Size would not matter in this case.

exactly... even though she was right in his face and according to everyone involved saying stuff like your team is a loser team and your a loser because you like them...and just generally being ugly and obnixious, it was still just WORDS. While she does have a rep for bullying and teasing etc, to my knowledge she does not have a rep for getting physical with other students.. just being nasty with them.

 

[ccgirl]

I think the difference is there is a difference between standing up for yourself and laying your hands on someone. Did he try to walk away? Again, the 14 year old should not have been making fun of the sports team on his jersey. The other difference is that she did not commit a crime and he did. It is not against the law to make fun of the team on someone's jersey (not nice, but not illegal) but it is against the law to push someone because you don't like what they were saying.

OP - I agree with you 100%. I wouldn't worry that he wouldn't stand up to someone next time. I think next time he will make a different choice and instead of pushing someone maybe he will just walk away??

ETA: Sorry, OP. We were posting at the same time.

If she has a reputation for being nasty to others; is anything ever done? That would be quite a concern of mine.

 

[ZellyB]

I'm surprised the school didn't issue a punishment. Regardless of the provocation, at my kids' schools, if one student resorts to physical assault, they receive consequences. The severity and circumstances do play a role in determining the punishment, but there is always some kind of consequence.

I would likely have done some sort of punishment at home, although it would have been probably just some removal of privileges given the provocation. But, intimidated or not, if my child instigated physical confrontation (particularly given that the other child got a broken nose from it, intended or not) then I would want him or her to have some sort of consequence from me.

 

[2binak]

I think the difference is there is a difference between standing up for yourself and laying your hands on someone. Did he try to walk away?

There is a difference, but I'm not sure that a 7 yr old, who has a much bigger person yelling in their face, can think calmly enough to discriminate that difference. Imagine someone twice your size yelling in your face.

We don't know what type of words she was using or if he was cornered. It may have started out as teasing about teams, but did it escalate to something else? Did she use threatening words? Did he not have a physcial way out other than to push her?

 

[ccgirl]

I'm surprised the school didn't issue a punishment. Regardless of the provocation, at my kids' schools, if one student resorts to physical assault, they receive consequences. The severity and circumstances do play a role in determining the punishment, but there is always some kind of consequence.

I would likely have done some sort of punishment at home, although it would have been probably just some removal of privileges given the provocation. But, intimidated or not, if my child instigated physical confrontation (particularly given that the other child got a broken nose from it, intended or not) then I would want him or her to have some sort of consequence from me.

Yes. Great post.

OP - thanks for posting this. I, too, am surprised by the amount of people that say not to punish.

Although many posters state punishing a child will teach them to be afraid to stand up for themself, I think that if the child is not punished you are teaching them it is okay to resort to physical violence if you don't like what is being said. There are other ways to stand up for yourself without laying your hands on someone.

 

[ccgirl]

There is a difference, but I'm not sure that a 7 yr old, who has a much bigger person yelling in their face, can think calmly enough to discriminate that difference. Imagine someone twice your size yelling in your face.

We don't know what type of words she was using or if he was cornered. It may have started out as teasing about teams, but did it escalate to something else? Did she use threatening words? Did he not have a physcial way out other than to push her?

This is a quote from the OP:

exactly... even though she was right in his face and according to everyone involved saying stuff like your team is a loser team and your a loser because you like them...and just generally being ugly and obnixious, it was still just WORDS. While she does have a rep for bullying and teasing etc, to my knowledge she does not have a rep for getting physical with other students.. just being nasty with them.

It doesn't mention if he tried to walk away.

 

[Mermaid02]

I think a much larger and older child getting in his personal space like that must have been very threatening and scary for him. He probably had the fight or flight instinct going on and just reacted to the threat.