OT - Puppy snapping and growling at my kids (update on post #54)

[100AcreWood]

Update Post #54


Hoping for some advice, words of encouragement, good stories maybe?

Our 11 year old golden retriever died three years ago and we finally decided to get another golden. He is 4 months old now and in the last two weeks his personality has shifted terribly. I expected him to be great with kids like our last golden but he has started growling and snapping at my kids. They are 10, 5, and 3.

We have a dog trainer coming to our house and he is in puppy classes. So we're doing our job training him. The strange thing is, in puppy class the other dogs literally beat him up. He is a total wimp.

He was trained and now he started jumping on us again. Also he's taking everything he can get his mouth on. Two weeks ago he would have never touched our clothes, toys, paper towels, etc. When he gets something that isn't his or could be dangerous, the kids ask him to "drop it" and he growls. We know his "play growl" and this is a serious I'm warning you growl.

He snapped last week at my son when we were at the vet because he saw a cat and he is crazy intense about cats. Twice this week he has snapped at my 10 year old dd. She only petted him and told him he was a good boy and he snapped.

Today he actually bit her on the lip but thank goodness he didn't draw blood. I heard him growl and told her to back away and before she could he went for her. He refused to go to his crate after that so I tried to pick him up and he became as stiff as a board. Feeling intimidated for the first time, I put him down and decided to seek more advice.

Has anyone experienced this? It will get better right? I supervise the dog with the kids always BUT he is very unpredictable right now.

 

[mom2val]

.

 

[jennylyn_b]

Sometimes if a dog isn't getting enough exercise he can be aggressive. Also check with the vet for an illness because a dog in pain or sick can lash out. You cannot let him intimidate you. They are pack animals and he will consider himself higher rank than you if you do. Consider keeping him away from the kids until you get him straightened out for their safety. Good luck.


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[100AcreWood]

Thank you for your responses. He was recently at the vet and we talked about this behavior. The vet said it wasn't medical. He was thoroughly checked out. He did have some stomach issues recently but it was related to his food. The vet thought his behavior has a lot to do with not respecting the kids in the pack. He follows me around the house and the trainer said he sees me as the pack leader. But he even growls at me now. No snapping at me, but he is giving me warning growls when I take stuff out of his mouth.

We're following the suggestions from the trainer and having the kids control his food. The trainer said to make the dog eat out of the kids' hands one piece at a time. Our kids don't have much patience for that and ewww, it's icky.

As far as exercise, we have a big fenced in backyard so he has lots of room to roam. The kids are always throwing his balls and toys for him to fetch. He tires out pretty quickly though. And I play tug with his rope. I really hate that game because he growls the entire time he's tugging but the trainer said it doesn't cause agression. We are working with her to walk him. It's very hot here even at night and if we take him out on a walk he sits on the sidewalk and refuses to move. Our dog trainer said it's the strangest thing she's ever seen. Most dogs pull like crazy and our dog refuses to walk.

 

[ncmickeyluvr]

If I were you, I would seek out the opinion of a different trainer. Someone with a different method that might approach things differently from the current trainer.

I also want to add that, while most people assume Goldens to be a great breed around families, that's not always the case. The dog that I fear my children around the most is my sister's male Golden. She has 3, one male and two younger females. The male is older ( approaching 12 ) so he's mellowed but he's always been a handful. I'll never forget the 4th of July that I spent with my niece in the ER when he bit her hand when she tried to put his leash on. He only listens to my BIL and bullies the rest of the family. Last year, BIL and my Sis separated and he finally started following her because she was suddenly the alpha.

Her other two dogs are completely docile and I trust them completely.

I'm glad that you're trying to get a handle on this while the dog is still young.

 

[deva]

I would not keep a dog that is growling and snapping at my children. This sounds like a horrible accident waiting to happen. I would return to breeder or perhaps find him a quiet home with no children.

 

[maxiesmom]

It has been very hot here too, and they are actually telling people to not walk their dogs without putting something on their paws to protect them from the pavement. Go out and put your hand on the pavement by you and you will see, it is hot! I wouldn't want to walk barefoot on it either. You can actually burn their feet by walking your dog on such hot pavement.

The comment about not wanting to follow what the trainer is telling you to do with the food really worries me. Controlling how your dog is feed and who gives your dog food is a huge thing. If you don't want to follow you trainer's advice on that, you are making it very hard on yourselves. Would your kids rather deal with icky food, or have a dog that is aggressive when it comes to food? That is the choice you have to make, and right now, you are making the choice to have a dog that is food aggressive. Not good!

 

[dragonfly08]

Definitely check with the vet and look into another trainer.

But, to be devil's advocate, I have to say that sometimes it doesn't work out. When DD #1 was born, I had a Sheltie who had been my baby for 11 years. We worked to help them get along for almost a year, but it just didn't happen...she was too active and inquisitive, he was too used to sleeping most of the day and being right next to me. It was a horribly difficult decision for me but in the end the only way to be fair to them both and ensure DDs safety was to give up the dog. Fortunately, there is an amazing Sheltie rescue group here and they were able to find him a foster home and then a permanent (non-child household) placement almost right away. They kept me in the loop for a while at the beginning just so I knew that he was adapting well and living happily with his new family.

Good luck!

 

[Happyjen27]

Seek out a board certified behaviorist. This would be someone who has completed veterinary college and then studied an additional 4+ years to become a specialist on behavior. They would have had to take and pass the boards. If you have a veterinary college nearby, you're sure to have one. 4 months is incredibly young for this type of behavior, and if this is starting at 4 months, it makes me very scared for your children when he reaches social maturity at age 2 years.

Although there are medicines and training tips you can try to work with this dog, if it were me, I would place him in an adult only home and then adopt an adult golden. Adult dogs are less predicitable as far as what their personality will be like.

Before I had kids I knew my dog would have issues with children, so before we started our family we drove 2 hours to a board certified behaviorist at a local vet college. We put him on meds and worked with him. I went back when I got pregnant for advice on how to introduce the children to him. The doctor expressed serious concerns as to whether given his diagnosis this dog would be able to make the transition to a family dog, even on prozac and training. This type of medical advice is what you need in this situation.

 

[jennylyn_b]

Thank you for your responses. He was recently at the vet and we talked about this behavior. The vet said it wasn't medical. He was thoroughly checked out. He did have some stomach issues recently but it was related to his food. The vet thought his behavior has a lot to do with not respecting the kids in the pack. He follows me around the house and the trainer said he sees me as the pack leader. But he even growls at me now. No snapping at me, but he is giving me warning growls when I take stuff out of his mouth.

We're following the suggestions from the trainer and having the kids control his food. The trainer said to make the dog eat out of the kids' hands one piece at a time. Our kids don't have much patience for that and ewww, it's icky.

As far as exercise, we have a big fenced in backyard so he has lots of room to roam. The kids are always throwing his balls and toys for him to fetch. He tires out pretty quickly though. And I play tug with his rope. I really hate that game because he growls the entire time he's tugging but the trainer said it doesn't cause agression. We are working with her to walk him. It's very hot here even at night and if we take him out on a walk he sits on the sidewalk and refuses to move. Our dog trainer said it's the strangest thing she's ever seen. Most dogs pull like crazy and our dog refuses to walk.

My dog wouldn't walk with a collar or leash so we got her a harness and it worked great. She didn't like the pulling on her neck. Also, our vet told us playing tug of war can cause aggression and since ours was already being a bit aggressive not to do it. It's basically a power struggle. Your kids need to show they aren't below him in the pack by disciplining him like you do and not letting him get away with growling or snapping. It's tough I know. Good luck


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[benniecooper]

You also need to keep in mind, a 4 month old puppy is like a toddler in the 'terrible two' & 'mine' stage. He will need some work so that these behaviors don't escalate. Since he is a young dog, does he have a crate, a bed or other 'safe zone'? Dogs are like us, they need their own place, like we have bedrooms.

I also agree about a different trainer. Having your kids hand feed the pup can be good, however it distorts his pack view. If he is looking to you and them for his food, it confuses him. You should do the feeding and let the kids work on a treat reward system for good behavior.

I am a responsible American Pit Bull Terrier owner. I work with local rescue organizations and shelters.

 

[nilseks]

Seek out a board certified behaviorist. This would be someone who has completed veterinary college and then studied an additional 4+ years to become a specialist on behavior. They would have had to take and pass the boards. If you have a veterinary college nearby, you're sure to have one. 4 months is incredibly young for this type of behavior, and if this is starting at 4 months, it makes me very scared for your children when he reaches social maturity at age 2 years.

Although there are medicines and training tips you can try to work with this dog, if it were me, I would place him in an adult only home and then adopt an adult golden. Adult dogs are less predicitable as far as what their personality will be like.

Before I had kids I knew my dog would have issues with children, so before we started our family we drove 2 hours to a board certified behaviorist at a local vet college. We put him on meds and worked with him. I went back when I got pregnant for advice on how to introduce the children to him. The doctor expressed serious concerns as to whether given his diagnosis this dog would be able to make the transition to a family dog, even on prozac and training. This type of medical advice is what you need in this situation.

This, this, this! I am not a trainer. I am a pet sitter and have worked in dog rescue for many years, fostering over 30 dogs in my home. I have seen dogs come out of the absolute WORST conditions and be rehabilitated. However, what I have NOT seen is a positive behavior change in a dog that starts acting like yours at this age. I am very sorry, I am not being blunt, just realistic--odds are whatever you do as far as training, you will end up rehoming that dog. If he is rehomed to the right place (quiet adult home?) he may have a chance at a good life. But if he continues this behavior and you keep him in your home, realize that you are putting him at risk for euthanasia. You have already discussed the problem with your vet. In most states, he has an obligation to write that in the pet's file. If he now causes injury to your children that requires medical care, there's that previous written record of the problem. It all depends on how your county or municipality handles it, but it's not a good situation for the dog or your children.

I know you are in a tough situation right now and I wish you all the best.

 

[MSSANDRA]

I know this sounds harsh but I would let the dog go now while he is still young enough to find good home without children. Some dogs just do not do well with children no matter what breed they are. We adopted a puppy when my oldest was 5. She has some behavior issues and she just never really liked our child. We just kept trying to deal with it and not have to get rid of her. We could never let her around other children at all and she snapped at several people. FF 15 years and she has gotten worse as he has aged. She is never allowed around our 5 year old which means a lot of confinement. No one would take her at this point and we refuse to put her down as she is quite healthy, and is very loving to my oldest DS (now that he is grown), my DH and myself. We just wished we had relinquished her to a good adult home when she was a puppy.

 

[mukorasirish]

I would question your trainer's idea about playing tug of war with any large dog. First of all if you do that you need to win every time to show pack dominance. But the more important issue is in one instance you are allowing him to growl and fight for an object you are trying to take and then you turn around and expect him to obediently drop something without putting up a fight. It's confusing for him and sets a bad precedence where he is allowed to exhibit bad behavior.

 

[jrmasm]

I would question your trainer's idea about playing tug of war with any large dog. First of all if you do that you need to win every time to show pack dominance. But the more important issue is in one instance you are allowing him to growl and fight for an object you are trying to take and then you turn around and expect him to obediently drop something without putting up a fight. It's confusing for him and sets a bad precedence where he is allowed to exhibit bad behavior.

That's what I was taught as well. Generally speaking, tug of war with a large breed dog is very a bad idea.

Another idea, instead of having your kids hand feed the dog, make him wait until they have all had something to eat. The dog always eats last.

 

[100AcreWood]

Thanks for your replies! I am reading every suggestion so please keep them coming!

We eat before the dog does. Our trainer gave us a list of things we should do like that so he knows who is in charge. Also, we had my 10 year old hand feed him yesterday after our dinner. She made us completely nervous though because she jumped every time he came near her hand. I'm sure he can sense her fear.

So the dog LOVES tug. I told the dog trainer I thought it promoted aggressiveness and she disagreed. She said it was a great way to get out his puppy energy.

As far as rehoming him, I know the breeder will take him back. I feel bad doing that and my dh doesn't think our dog would ever bite anyone so he keeps saying don't worry it will get better. He is convinced this is a puppy thing but I'm freaked out that it's starting this early. But I'm not sure I'll ever be able to trust the dog and I don't want to keep going if this ultimately leads to us finding him another home.

Sigh. I'm working with our breeder and she is VERY concerned about his behavior. She said he will only continue to get more aggressive if we don't get him under control now.

 

[maggs1035]

If your breeder is willing, I would return the dog to her, and get another one out of a different litter! We bought 2 boxer pups from two different litters (same breeder at the same time) and one of them had developed a problem with his front legs, and we had to return him after 8 weeks with us (it was heartbreaking) but we took him to her so he could get the $4000 surgery he needed, and picked out another pup from a different litter (same litter as the other pup, so now we have sisters) It really was the best for the dog, hard on us, but it's 2 yrs later and were all happy!

Seriously think about returning to the breeder!

 

[nadira36]

Well, I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is we've been there - and saw a HUGE difference. You can change the behaviours.
The bad news is you're likely causing them. From what you've written I can see a few things happening that would cause the behaviour.

I highly recommend looking up Dr. Ian Dunbar - his website has tons of info for how to train your puppy using dog behaviour - not alpha stuff - that alpha dog stuff tends to cause more problems than it fixes.

In Jan we rescued a large bree d puppy - at 4 mos he was 50lbs (at 11 mos he's 90lbs) he was a sweet puppy, but he jumped, he growled, he lunged, he nipped, and he even bit me a couple time (not enough to draw blood, but he left bruises).

First, you need to train your puppy - not the kids, once he's more predictable, then get the kids to help. Second - do NOT play tug-of-war. Tug-of-war is a game that establishes dominance. Until your puppy will drop whatever you have as soon as you tell him, do not play this game. it DOES create aggression - at the very least it lets your dog believe he's boss.

Also, if you're not already crate training - do so. It'll really make a huge difference. If he's not behaving crate him. If you can't watch 100% crate him. Get a few kong toys - he gets his kibble from toys or hands only. Not a dish. This rewards him for playing with his toys - not the kids toys.

When giving treats by hand - close your fist - he does not get the treat until he stops touching your fist. At first he will lick, and paw at your hand - as soon as he takes his nose away from your hand open your hand - after he starts to get the idea, then keep your hand closed until he doesn't touch you for 10 seconds, then 15 then only if he doesn't try touching you at all. If he jumps, turn your back and cross your arms. Don't say anything, just turn around give him a treat when he puts all 4 feet on the floor.

To inhibit bite - grab his mouth and force your hand in - so you're circling his lower jaw with your hand - he will push your hand out - when he does reward him with a treat.

Teach him to sit, lie down, roll over. If he's sitting, he's not jumping, if he's lying down he's not jumping. If you don't know anything else to do - make him sit/lie down and reward him for that vs accidentally reward him for a bad behaviour.

Attention is reward - so if you yell at him - it's a reward.

If he's gotten a toy, chewwed a shoe - it was your fault for leaving it out - do NOT pull it away from him. Everytime you pull it away from him gives him information. It lets him know he must defend everything from you b/c you steal things from him. Teach him drop-it/off/leave-it some command that lets him know not to touch. Everytime he drops what he has, reward him - it rewards the drop - he will eventually only get his toys, then you can move on to games like tug-of-war where the game is enough reward to drop-it and get-it.

anyhow - this is basic information - I am not a dog behaviourist - but this is what's worked for us. I think you should (at the very least) ditch the trainer you have - but better yet find an actual dog behaviourist to help you out. but look at the credentials - you want someone who actually has the education to back up their claim to the title.

 

[StitchFanZ]

If the breeder is willing to take him back, I would seriously consider it. He is still young enough to be easily placed in a home that would be a better fit for him. Often times breeders will have an older dog that needs to be placed in a good home. Given the ages of your kids, an older dog might be a better fit.
Especially if you want a dog that can hang out with everyone when the kids have friends over. Sounds like he is growing into a dog that will always have to be on leash around groups of kids unless things change drastically.

 

[Samar]

Well, I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is we've been there - and saw a HUGE difference. You can change the behaviours.
The bad news is you're likely causing them. From what you've written I can see a few things happening that would cause the behaviour.

I highly recommend looking up Dr. Ian Dunbar - his website has tons of info for how to train your puppy using dog behaviour - not alpha stuff - that alpha dog stuff tends to cause more problems than it fixes.

In Jan we rescued a large bree d puppy - at 4 mos he was 50lbs (at 11 mos he's 90lbs) he was a sweet puppy, but he jumped, he growled, he lunged, he nipped, and he even bit me a couple time (not enough to draw blood, but he left bruises).

First, you need to train your puppy - not the kids, once he's more predictable, then get the kids to help. Second - do NOT play tug-of-war. Tug-of-war is a game that establishes dominance. Until your puppy will drop whatever you have as soon as you tell him, do not play this game. it DOES create aggression - at the very least it lets your dog believe he's boss.

Also, if you're not already crate training - do so. It'll really make a huge difference. If he's not behaving crate him. If you can't watch 100% crate him. Get a few kong toys - he gets his kibble from toys or hands only. Not a dish. This rewards him for playing with his toys - not the kids toys.

When giving treats by hand - close your fist - he does not get the treat until he stops touching your fist. At first he will lick, and paw at your hand - as soon as he takes his nose away from your hand open your hand - after he starts to get the idea, then keep your hand closed until he doesn't touch you for 10 seconds, then 15 then only if he doesn't try touching you at all. If he jumps, turn your back and cross your arms. Don't say anything, just turn around give him a treat when he puts all 4 feet on the floor.

To inhibit bite - grab his mouth and force your hand in - so you're circling his lower jaw with your hand - he will push your hand out - when he does reward him with a treat.

Teach him to sit, lie down, roll over. If he's sitting, he's not jumping, if he's lying down he's not jumping. If you don't know anything else to do - make him sit/lie down and reward him for that vs accidentally reward him for a bad behaviour.

Attention is reward - so if you yell at him - it's a reward.

If he's gotten a toy, chewwed a shoe - it was your fault for leaving it out - do NOT pull it away from him. Everytime you pull it away from him gives him information. It lets him know he must defend everything from you b/c you steal things from him. Teach him drop-it/off/leave-it some command that lets him know not to touch. Everytime he drops what he has, reward him - it rewards the drop - he will eventually only get his toys, then you can move on to games like tug-of-war where the game is enough reward to drop-it and get-it.

anyhow - this is basic information - I am not a dog behaviourist - but this is what's worked for us. I think you should (at the very least) ditch the trainer you have - but better yet find an actual dog behaviourist to help you out. but look at the credentials - you want someone who actually has the education to back up their claim to the title.

This

We adopted my black lab/great dane mix when he was a few months old and he was a tough pup to train. He bit me at one point and drew blood but I defended him to my parents so they wouldn't take him back to the shelter.

Definitely get a 2nd opinion, that could make a big difference in your pup's fate <3