OT - Kindergarten for my 4 yo this September

[princessmom29]

OK - something we can agree on!

Let's change the cutoffs....I'm all for that. Let's get every expert on the subject in one room to come up with the best date for that/age to begin. But then, let's enforce them too - so that all the kids in the classroom have an even playing field to start.

ITA! This is what needs to happen. A set date to enter K at which almost all children can be expected to be ready. Put them all in the program, and as children show a need for something different, meet that need. You will have the fewest possible number of children in need of special assistance, and will be much better able to meet their needs.

 

[DisneyMomma81]

My B~day is 8/8 ~ I started K shortly after my 5th B~day, school was never hard and socially elementary and middle school were fine ~ but I hated not being able to drive till 2 weeks before my Jr. year, also I chose not do date till my 16th B~day. I would've much preferred to be the oldest instead of the youngest - I imagine for boys that's even more important. My sister who's B~day is 7/27 repeated K ~ she was so small and not quite there academically after the 1st year. My DD who's B~day is 7/3 started K (1/2 day) at 5 ~ she's now in 1st grade and doing well, if I didn't work I probably would've kept her home for 1 more year ~ she's teeny, her cousin who's B~day is in May *so a couple months older than DD* waited to start K for a year, so while he could be in the same grade as DD he's a year behind ~ I'm not sure why they had him wait, I think he would've been fine, but I do have a nephew who's B~day is in Aug. and he would've definitely benifited from waiting till his 6th B~day to start K but he didn't and I suppose he's fine (in 2nd grade this year). It was weird graduating @ 17 - all my school friends are so old ~ their B~days are in the fall and winter.

 

[Aristomommy]

Cleary, sincey you have spoken to hundreds of educators, and clearly because you have done your research, you are aware of the numbers then??

high school drop out rates, teen pregnacy, suicide, drinking, smoking, not going onto college..you then know that the numbers reflect that the younger a child is when they start school, the more likely they are to fall into those bad things, and its not by a little bit, its by almost 70%.

And what research is out there for advanced learners and their motivation to be in a classroom that's lacking in challenge? If you have never read research about the drop out rates, suicide rates etc. of gifted children who are held back (didn't you say that holding back NEVER hurts a child???) and under perform compared to gifted peers that are allowed to start school when ready (often at 4) and challenged at their own pace, it certainly is worth looking into. I have read many studies that describe what you state about the risks for younger students, but I choose to rather work on strategies to prevent this in my child than create an environment where she is the oldest. School is about learning first and foremost and if that is addressed appropriately, other things can be worked out as well. But a bad educational fit is a bad situation all around.

The difference here is that parents have the choice to redshirt their children, but not to send their kids to school early. One must wonder why that is. If school was so concerned about ALL students, there would be a good percentage of kids starting at 4, majority at 5 and a good percentage at 6. Sort of like a bell curve of age distribution. But the schools know that by having more 6 year old start, they play the NCLB game better and that is a shame.

 

[Mickeypooh99]

And what research is out there for advanced learners and their motivation to be in a classroom that's lacking in challenge? If you have never read research about the drop out rates, suicide rates etc. of gifted children who are held back (didn't you say that holding back NEVER hurts a child???) and under perform compared to gifted peers that are allowed to start school when ready (often at 4) and challenged at their own pace, it certainly is worth looking into. I have read many studies that describe what you state about the risks for younger students, but I choose to rather work on strategies to prevent this in my child than create an environment where she is the oldest. School is about learning first and foremost and if that is addressed appropriately, other things can be worked out as well. But a bad educational fit is a bad situation all around.

The difference here is that parents have the choice to redshirt their children, but not to send their kids to school early. One must wonder why that is. If school was so concerned about ALL students, there would be a good percentage of kids starting at 4, majority at 5 and a good percentage at 6. Sort of like a bell curve of age distribution. But the schools know that by having more 6 year old start, they play the NCLB game better and that is a shame.

Yes. Holding a child back can hurt. I remember my DS's doctor asking me one time - if he was learning to walk at 9 months would you push him down and say he couldn't learn to walk until 12 months since that is normal? Of course not. If they are ready to learn then they should have the opportunity to learn. Every child should be able to have challenges along the way. The advanced child should not be made to sit in a class where he is not learning anything new.

 

[Tinkmom75]

And what research is out there for advanced learners and their motivation to be in a classroom that's lacking in challenge? If you have never read research about the drop out rates, suicide rates etc. of gifted children who are held back (didn't you say that holding back NEVER hurts a child???) and under perform compared to gifted peers that are allowed to start school when ready (often at 4) and challenged at their own pace, it certainly is worth looking into. I have read many studies that describe what you state about the risks for younger students, but I choose to rather work on strategies to prevent this in my child than create an environment where she is the oldest. School is about learning first and foremost and if that is addressed appropriately, other things can be worked out as well. But a bad educational fit is a bad situation all around.

The difference here is that parents have the choice to redshirt their children, but not to send their kids to school early. One must wonder why that is. If school was so concerned about ALL students, there would be a good percentage of kids starting at 4, majority at 5 and a good percentage at 6. Sort of like a bell curve of age distribution. But the schools know that by having more 6 year old start, they play the NCLB game better and that is a shame.

This is very well put.

 

[Mickeypooh99]

I don't have a school age child yet, and I'm sure every district is different, but reading these posts has made me curious - do schools not differentiate by ability within classes any more?

I distinctly remember all throughout elementary school there being different "reading groups" within each class. Even in Kindergarten (and mine was only 1/2 day) - the children who could read already were given a reading book (I even remember the name of it, "One Potato Two") and the children who couldn't read yet must have done pre-reading activities. I don't remember differentiation for any other subjects, but there were definitely different groups for reading in every one of my classes from K-5. In middle school obviously the structure changed, and we were differentiated by ability for every subject. (This was in public schools in the 1980s-90s.)

To answer your question, at our school the teachers are supposed to differentiate. However, it is easier said than done. In my son's K class he was the only child reading chapter books at the beginning of the year. In fact he was the highest reader in the school by far. The teacher told me they would put together a group of the best readers from each class. As the year progressed it never happened. They were looking for a volunteer to run the group. There were no teachers available. All the teachers and aides were working with the average and below average kids.

There were no groups for other subjects. Now that he is in 4th grade, he is in the highest reading group, but again it isn't on his level (and he has already skipped one grade.) As I said before for math they just put him in the hall to do enrichment work.

There just isn't funding for a gifted program in our district.

 

[princessmom29]

I don't have a school age child yet, and I'm sure every district is different, but reading these posts has made me curious - do schools not differentiate by ability within classes any more?

I distinctly remember all throughout elementary school there being different "reading groups" within each class. Even in Kindergarten (and mine was only 1/2 day) - the children who could read already were given a reading book (I even remember the name of it, "One Potato Two") and the children who couldn't read yet must have done pre-reading activities. I don't remember differentiation for any other subjects, but there were definitely different groups for reading in every one of my classes from K-5. In middle school obviously the structure changed, and we were differentiated by ability for every subject. (This was in public schools in the 1980s-90s.)

With the advent of inclusion, confidentiality laws, ect. You cannot, at least n our district, let the kids know what you are doing if you differentiate based on ability. A child's parent can choose to have them leave their regular classroom for differentiated instruction, but when it it is done "push-in" you cannot just divide the groups based on ability. You must pull a small group with the child to be helped, plus other children who do not need help so that no one is singled out as "different". No more reading groups based on ability ect are allowed. I was in 3rd grade when they stopped allowing us to have in classroom reading groups that operated above grade level. We were in the 5th grade reading series and they just took the books away from us and handed us 3rd grade readers. I suspect now that there was probably a lawsuit. The only way to get more advanced work at that point was TAG.

 

[Mickeypooh99]

With the advent of inclusion, confidentiality laws, ect. You cannot, at least n our district, let the kids know what you are doing if you differentiate based on ability. A child's parent can choose to have them leave their regular classroom for differentiated instruction, but when it it is done "push-in" you cannot just divide the groups based on ability. You must pull a small group with the child to be helped, plus other children who do not need help so that no one is singled out as "different". No more reading groups based on ability ect are allowed. I was in 3rd grade when they stopped allowing us to have in classroom reading groups that operated above grade level. We were in the 5th grade reading series and they just took the books away from us and handed us 3rd grade readers. I suspect now that there was probably a lawsuit. The only way to get more advanced work at that point was TAG.

I have never heard of that. Our school has differentiation. Both my sons are in the highest reading group. They reads books above grade level. My oldest does above grade level math also (although he has to go into the hall for that.) Both my boys are in the highest spelling groups for their grade. I think the teachers have 3 different spelling groups. I can't spell some of the words my boys bring home. Some I have never even heard of. The school is always bragging about how the teachers have differentiation training. They make a big deal out of it. My complaint is that it doesn't really do enough for the extremely bright children.

 

[formill]

My youngest will be starting Kindergarten this September, he will make the age cut-off by a week so he'll be 4 when he starts. Does anyone else have a 4 year old starting this fall or who started this year? I am just wondering how they adapted to a 5 day schedule along with taking the bus to/from school.

He currently goes to Pre-School 3x a week, 6 hours a day and loves school and would want to go every day if it was offered. He is right on track with his development and reading skills.

I will probably be going back to work FT as i've been working PT jobs for the last 3 years, which in a way i'm excited about as well.

Bigger concerns for me when my kids started school at 4 were things like who watches them get off the bus, who watches them at lunch and in our school the answers were disturbing......my twins were still only 3 (for a month) when they started what we call Junior Kindergarten......due to staff shortages and how much time they have to spend on yard duty etc......there was no one to see them get off the bus- they were expected at 3 years old to get off and go around to the back of the school on their own.....same with lunch....one teacher roams the halls and "watches" several classes.........the school doors are always locked......children are expected when out at recess to get a key pad to unlock door from the person on yard duty to go in and use the washroom and the same if they are in the class out in the portable- they walk to the school on their own and use this key pad to get in the school- no washroom in the portable. Our school yard is not fenced and there is one staff member for about 80 children....all the kids are in grade 2 and under. So while all the conversation seems focused on the learning they will do at such a young age.......for me the issues were more about safety and supervision. We made it through that year when they were 4 but I would not in hindsight have sent them. The next year was much much better.....they could talk more about their day etc.

 

[princessmom29]

Bigger concerns for me when my kids started school at 4 were things like who watches them get off the bus, who watches them at lunch and in our school the answers were disturbing......my twins were still only 3 (for a month) when they started what we call Junior Kindergarten......due to staff shortages and how much time they have to spend on yard duty etc......there was no one to see them get off the bus- they were expected at 3 years old to get off and go around to the back of the school on their own.....same with lunch....one teacher roams the halls and "watches" several classes.........the school doors are always locked......children are expected when out at recess to get a key pad to unlock door from the person on yard duty to go in and use the washroom and the same if they are in the class out in the portable- they walk to the school on their own and use this key pad to get in the school- no washroom in the portable. Our school yard is not fenced and there is one staff member for about 80 children....all the kids are in grade 2 and under. So while all the conversation seems focused on the learning they will do at such a young age.......for me the issues were more about safety and supervision. We made it through that year when they were 4 but I would not in hindsight have sent them. The next year was much much better.....they could talk more about their day etc.

Wow!!! That sounds like a tragedy wating to happen. Here teachers are required to eat lunch with their class, and no child goes anywhere outside the building alone. They can go down the hall to the bathroom from their classroom, but if they go in from PE they go with a buddy. All play yards are fenced. I think regardless of wether they were 4,5, or 6 when starting I think I would have issue with safety here!

 

[dogluva]

There is a difference between being outside the norm and being LD. There are children outside the norm. Of course there are, but how many others in her class were not reading in 3rd grade? Definitley not the majority of the class. It is not the norm in our society for a child not to read until 3rd grade.

Six outside the norm? All my kids read late. I also had late walkers and one early walker. Yes, there were some kids in her class not reading in third grade. Don't know how many but a few. My daughter is very normal and she was normal then.

 

[TheWags]

I work in education in a high poverty district, and have three fairly different learners in the same district.

All of our kindergardeners are coming from different places. Some have been in high quality preschool, some show up two days (or 20) into the schoolyear never having had a book read to them. One parent may want to hold their newly 5 year old back a year so that she isn't 13 in high school, another may want their smaller than average son to be able to play football later. Then you have the kid whose parent doesn't want to pay for daycare any longer so wants them in school as early as allowable and another that doesn't want to take responsibility for getting their kid to school every day, or else is afraid of the school system's built in mandated reporters, social workers and/or psychologists will look too closely at their home life. None of these cases are unusual and none are academic.

For us personally, I have a highly gifted kid who was underserved in elementary to the point of developing anxiety problems. Gifted programing is not mandated in most states, but bringing up the scores of the lower third is. We had the ability and resources to advocate for her to a degree, but another kid with the same profile and no advocate would be a scary statistic by middle school.

So I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. There should exist a hard deadline where kids are in school. Once these kids are there, they need to be assessed as to where they are at currently and a plan should be made for each as to what the goal is, and how they will meet it. Quarterly, they should be reassessed to see if they are improving staying the same or losing ground. Parents need to be involved and valued. Teachers need to be given the tools aids and resources to accomplish this, instead of having one generic cirricula jammed down their throats. I truly believe that doing this for PK-GR3 would save a tremendous amount of money both in educational services at the higher grades, social services later, and is in our national interest.

Tracy

 

[princessmom29]

Six outside the norm? All my kids read late. I also had late walkers and one early walker. Yes, there were some kids in her class not reading in third grade. Don't know how many but a few. My daughter is very normal and she was normal then.

I went by the fact that you siad she was almost in 3rd grade before she started reading. Thati s absolutley outside the normal range. I am nor calling you daughter "not normal", but her skill level in reading is certianly outside the norm if she is a cronological third grader and not reading. How can she be 6 and almost in 3rd grade if she didn't start school early? She would have had to have benn early entry even with a december cutoff.

 

[dpknoll]

My daughter was 4 when she started kindergarten and turned 5 a few weeks later. She was the youngest in her class then and continues to be one of the youngest every year (she is in 2nd grade now). She was in pre k 5 days a week and stayed for before and after care due to our work schedules so in pre k she was in school from 8-4(at least). She adjusted nicely to the schedule of school since it was not that different - we had her in a private school for kindergarten so she had a long bus ride (30 min each way) - that took some getting used to for her. She switched to public school for first grade and now has a 5 min bus ride and she loves it. I am a teacher and looked long and hard at sending my 4 year old to kindergarten until I stopped looking at her age and started looking at her - she was ready and wanted to go so who was I to hold her back...she loves school and I don't regret sending her at 4 at all. Good luck with your decision making =)

 

[jodifla]

I went by the fact that you siad she was almost in 3rd grade before she started reading. Thati s absolutley outside the normal range. I am nor calling you daughter "not normal", but her skill level in reading is certianly outside the norm if she is a cronological third grader and not reading. How can she be 6 and almost in 3rd grade if she didn't start school early? She would have had to have benn early entry even with a december cutoff.

I think dogluva may have six children, not age 6. All read late.

 

[dogluva]

I think dogluva may have six children, not age 6. All read late.

yes, this is correct.

Third grade is outside the norm. She was reading somewhat but she really didn't start reading-reading until third grade. She is a great reader now so in the end it didn't matter when she read.

My son in fourth just really just started reading. Things are fine.

 

[drinkme]

I haven't read all of the responses, so I'm not sure what everyone else's experience is with this. Under the recommendation of my ds' preschool teacher, we started my ds in K when he was 4. He made the cutoff by 1 day. It was a total disaster! He ended up doing K another year.

When I was a child, I never went to preschool or kindergarten. I started 1st grade when I was 5 1/2. I remember it taking me a couple of months to get used to the "rules". But by the time I got to be a teenager, it was so apparent that I was much more immature than my classmates. The schoolwork was a breeze for me, so that wasn't an issue. But socially I always seemed a step behind my classmates (like when it came to puberty, boys, maturity, etc.) Not a big issue, but I did graduate from high school at 17. I didn't go off to college after h.s. because I just wasn't ready. I waited until I was 19. Looking back now at my college years when I was 19, it would have been awful being there at 17!!!! Think of how college life is. Would you want that experience for a 17 year old? lol. And I'm not even talking about the parties and drinking temptations! Just being responsible enough is a major concern.

I would always recommend to hold a child back.

HTH

 

[princessmom29]

I haven't read all of the responses, so I'm not sure what everyone else's experience is with this. Under the recommendation of my ds' preschool teacher, we started my ds in K when he was 4. He made the cutoff by 1 day. It was a total disaster! He ended up doing K another year.

When I was a child, I never went to preschool or kindergarten. I started 1st grade when I was 5 1/2. I remember it taking me a couple of months to get used to the "rules". But by the time I got to be a teenager, it was so apparent that I was much more immature than my classmates. The schoolwork was a breeze for me, so that wasn't an issue. But socially I always seemed a step behind my classmates (like when it came to puberty, boys, maturity, etc.) Not a big issue, but I did graduate from high school at 17. I didn't go off to college after h.s. because I just wasn't ready. I waited until I was 19. Looking back now at my college years when I was 19, it would have been awful being there at 17!!!! Think of how college life is. Would you want that experience for a 17 year old? lol. And I'm not even talking about the parties and drinking temptations! Just being responsible enough is a major concern.

I would always recommend to hold a child back.

HTH

I graduated high school at 17, went to college and did just fine, more than fine in fact. It was nto awful at all. I really enjoyed it. I had several friends in the same sitution. No one saw it as out of the ordinary or ever even considered waiting a year. It was just never an issue. Everyone had birthdays spread troughout the year, and no one thought anything of it. We all got to drive at different times, but other than that nothing was ever "different" aobut those of us with summer and early fall birthdays, because everyone went to school according to the cutoff so it was expected and accepted.

 

[Ava]

With the advent of inclusion, confidentiality laws, ect. You cannot, at least n our district, let the kids know what you are doing if you differentiate based on ability. A child's parent can choose to have them leave their regular classroom for differentiated instruction, but when it it is done "push-in" you cannot just divide the groups based on ability. You must pull a small group with the child to be helped, plus other children who do not need help so that no one is singled out as "different". No more reading groups based on ability ect are allowed. I was in 3rd grade when they stopped allowing us to have in classroom reading groups that operated above grade level. We were in the 5th grade reading series and they just took the books away from us and handed us 3rd grade readers. I suspect now that there was probably a lawsuit. The only way to get more advanced work at that point was TAG.

That is just bizarre! We always had 3 reading groups per class when I was in elementary school. The teachers would make up names for them so (supposedly) the kids wouldn't know which level they were in - but we always knew. Even so, I'm surprised there wasn't a lawsuit from all the parents of above-average kids in your district who suddenly had their work taken from them and were forced to do work they already knew just so the kids who weren't as smart wouldn't feel bad.

I do remember when I was in maybe 4th or 5th grade they stopped calling the gifted program "Gifted & Talented" (or GT for short) because "all children are gifted and talented." They started calling it EEP for "Extended Enrichment Program." My 4th grade teacher thought it was odd that only some of the kids in the highest reading group were in EEP and not all, so when the EEP kids would leave the class 2 or 3 times a week to work with their teacher, she would do the same activities with the rest of us in the highest reading group. (Whether or not you got into GT/EEP in my district was based on tests taken in Kindergarten or 1st grade, and that was it. Only if you were new to the district could you be tested older, there was no way to be re-tested after those initial tests to see if you qualified.)

 

[Aristomommy]

That is just bizarre! We always had 3 reading groups per class when I was in elementary school. The teachers would make up names for them so (supposedly) the kids wouldn't know which level they were in - but we always knew. Even so, I'm surprised there wasn't a lawsuit from all the parents of above-average kids in your district who suddenly had their work taken from them and were forced to do work they already knew just so the kids who weren't as smart wouldn't feel bad.

All the laws pertaining to gifted education are state specific. In Ohio, for example the law states that gifted students must be identified, but there is no mandate for gifted services. Therefore what is offered to GT students varies from one school to another. Schools get funding per each GT student (that's why so many students are identified) and then turn around and use those funds for something entirely different. Our former school had enrichment by teacher nomination even though a child might have qualified by test scores. This was to make it even for everybody. Our new school has the GT kids in one classroom and they move ahead one or two years in math and LA while staying with age peers. They are with other kids during other classes so they are not isolated within the school. This doesn't cost the school a penny more yet the student thrive and parents are happy.