OT - HELP!!! DD big school issue!

[NotUrsula]

I'd like to address one other point from the OP:

The other little girl, who DD does like to play with and we have socialized with outside of school, has a habit of saying things to DD like "I'm more beautiful than you" or "my hair is nicer/longer/more beautiful than yours"

The whole tattling issue aside, this is a loaded self-image issue, especially for a girl. I'm no early-childhood expert, but I think it is really important to nip appearance one-upmanship in the bud. "Beauty" is not just about physical appearances; it is also about behavior and character. If it were me, I would suggest that when X starts up with this sort of remark, that someone step in and point out that when ugly words come out of your mouth, it ruins any beauty you might otherwise be lucky enough to have. (Your DD could even come back with, "Maybe, but you sure say a lot of ugly things.")

 

[sara74]

Sorry to confuse, there are 2 teachers in the classroom, one of whom made the scissors comment. The one who made the comment was not there when DH picked up yesterday, so the other teacher was the one who told him that DD is too hesitant to approach the teachers.

At the conference today things got off to a really bad start! The two teachers started by telling me that they had problems with DDs social and emotional development. I got defensive and asked why, if they had problems did they not approach me sooner and then they got defensive and so on. Well, we finally got out of each other that the way the director handled things with them and the actual concerns that I expressed were not quite the same. They were told that I was unhappy with them in general, that DD was afraid to come to school, etc, etc. So once I assured them that we are otherwise happy, like I have said before, things calmed down. We ended up with an hour and a half long conference and everyone is good. I think the way that they were approached was harsher than necessary, I knew they were joking but I also knew that DD didn't understand that, and a simple explanation of that and a reassurance that kids should approach the teachers when they have a problem.

At the conference the teachers told me that neither of them has ever had a problem with DD tattling, in fact she seems to not tell on a misbehaving kid as she doesn't want to get them in trouble! They do feel that DD is hesitant at times but they think that she will be less so when the older kids transition to kindergarten at the end of July. (Right now DD is the youngest child in a room of 20 kids! At the end of the summer, 16 are moving to K and 4 are staying in PreK to be joined by 10 other children)

DD and the other girl are being kept apart for much of the day by being placed in different groups, and with the other child changing her schedule recently, they will only overlap 2 days a week (of course DD is only there 3 days a week, so that only helps a little!) And the teachers stressed that when they are approached by a child with a problem, they first ask if the kids tried to talk it out first, but that they take action if it still requires it.

So all's well that ends well. They are going to keep a close eye on the girl that DD has troubles with, they told me that DD very rarely is fresh to the other kids but that they will tell me if she is in the future. I am so tired from all this that I need a nap!!!

NotUrsula - I agree about the self-image issue with this little girl. I have told DD that it doesn't matter what you look like on the outside if you are not a beautiful person on the inside. And I think she gets it, as much as a 4 yo can. The other little girl seems very image obscessed, hair, makeup! and so on, even to shoe size! I'm trying to not have DD caught up in these things, especially at such a young age!

torinsmom - I am otherwise happy with her school situation and am completely satisfied after today's conference. Since I only work M,T,W and we live 5 minutes from the center, I actually have the opportunity to swing by on our 'at home' days and I often bring DD in to visit so I can help with projects on those days, like cooking or shows that they put on for the parents. So I have seen the center in action and have dropped in on several occasions with no notice at all times of day. I looked into the Montessori fascinates me, but the only school close to us has only a half day program for kids DDs age and requires them to attend half days 5 days a week, so it doesn't work for us.

Thanks to you all for the comfort, stories and just listening to me! I appreciate it!!!!

 

[torinsmom]

Well, we finally got out of each other that the way the director handled things with them and the actual concerns that I expressed were not quite the same. They were told that I was unhappy with them in general, that DD was afraid to come to school, etc, etc. So once I assured them that we are otherwise happy, like I have said before, things calmed down. We ended up with an hour and a half long conference and everyone is good. I think the way that they were approached was harsher than necessary, I knew they were joking but I also knew that DD didn't understand that, and a simple explanation of that and a reassurance that kids should approach the teachers when they have a problem.

This is why I suggested that you speak to the teachers before going to the director. The teachers were probably upset that they had an unhappy parent and then the director gave them the wrong information, so then they were even more upset. Its kind of a "he said, she said" kind of thing at that point. I have had that happen and its very frustrating when you are called into the director's office and blind-sided by a problem you didn't know existed. Our admin now has a policy that if the parent has not addressed the problem with the teacher, they are asked to do so. Obviously, in an abuse situation, that is not required, but this situation would have been referred back for the parent and teacher to talk about first.

I'm glad it worked out for you. If you are interested in Montessori when your daughter is in full day, check and see if there are Montessori charter or magnet schools in your area. My school is a charter and we have 2 Montessori magnets closeby as well. Can't beat free Montessori!

Marsha

 

[Luv'sTink]

At the conference today things got off to a really bad start! The two teachers started by telling me that they had problems with DDs social and emotional development. I got defensive and asked why, if they had problems did they not approach me sooner and then they got defensive and so on. Well, we finally got out of each other that the way the director handled things with them and the actual concerns that I expressed were not quite the same. They were told that I was unhappy with them in general, that DD was afraid to come to school, etc, etc. So once I assured them that we are otherwise happy, like I have said before, things calmed down.

So after everyone calmed down they didn't feel your child had these problems?

 

[cocodog]

I am a protective parent, but I think you might be overreacting to this situation a tad. Life is full of people who behave boorishly, like the little girl you described. As much as we would like to, we cannot always protect our children from others. I think the earlier they learn to deal with these issues, the better off they will be. There won't always be a teacher to tattle to....

Maybe you could empahasize to her some examples of behavior that would warrant 'tattling' ands others (such as this) that don't. The teachers are in a bad situation here-- the other girl, although she sounds mean and obnoxious, hasn't really broken any rules. If you take care of this child, there will be another obnoxious one waiting right around the corner. I would advise my child to ignore the behavior, although you seem to be sending mixed signals by socializing with the family.

Just my opinion....... Good luck straightening things out.

 

[fakereadhed]

I just read your posts for the first time. Is there anywhere else your could send your daughter to preschool? I have had my share of situations with my kids and there are red flags everywhere, from the teacher's comments to how the director handled things. This may not be the popular thing to say, but if you are having this much trouble communicating with these people, how is a 4 year old supposed to deal with them on a daily basis. I think you did the right thing for your child by not letting it go.

 

[sara74]

So after everyone calmed down they didn't feel your child had these problems?

I agree, I was taken aback by the same thing and have chalked it up to them feeling backed into a corner. I will admit that the whole thing came down the wrong way. However, at drop off, neither of the teachers in her room was there yet. PreK and PreSchool are combined for an hour in the AM until more kids arrive, so I couldn't talk to the teachers then. I don't pick up on Weds and DH isn't the greatest communicator so I did what I felt I could at the time. Next time, I will go to the teacher instead of the director. Lesson learned by me.

 

[sara74]

I am a protective parent, but I think you might be overreacting to this situation a tad. Life is full of people who behave boorishly, like the little girl you described. As much as we would like to, we cannot always protect our children from others. I think the earlier they learn to deal with these issues, the better off they will be. There won't always be a teacher to tattle to....

This is a quote from my original post...
We have been trying to work on solutions for DD ranging from walk away, to tell your teacher, to tell her that saying mean things makes you not beautiful on the inside, etc. I'm not asking them to be separated, not asking that anything be done to the other child, just going over with DD some strategies for how to handle a kid like that when the comment came out (the scissors thing) that had me worked up.

Today in the teacher conference they specifically said that DD doesn't ******* When I told DD that there were times when she should talk to a teacher, that is when the hole in the pants thing came out of her. The teacher admitted saying it and sees that DD didn't 'get' the joke. She's planning on just giving DD heads up if she jokes like that in the future.

Maybe you could empahasize to her some examples of behavior that would warrant 'tattling' ands others (such as this) that don't. The teachers are in a bad situation here-- the other girl, although she sounds mean and obnoxious, hasn't really broken any rules. If you take care of this child, there will be another obnoxious one waiting right around the corner. I would advise my child to ignore the behavior, although you seem to be sending mixed signals by socializing with the family.

Just my opinion....... Good luck straightening things out.

I'm not trying to 'take care of this child'. I'm trying to get my daughter to a place where she can tell the other girl to knock it off and then if it continues that she can then approach an adult about it. My thoughts in socializing with them are this. 1) we had seen them socially before this behavior started 2)when it happens and we parents are there, I at least know her mom sees it and have seen her deal with it and 3)seeing them outside of school has let me judge whether or not DD is making it up, it overplaying it or it is really happening. That said, we have avoided vacationing with this family (they brought up the idea of all visiting Disney together and we veoted it!) and I am avoiding putting DD into a whole bunch of extracurriculars with this child. Not that I don't think there will be another child just like this in other activities and for the rest of her childhood, but just - why push it? When the girls are getting along, they are like sisters and when they aren't well, they are like sisters. At least like me and my sister are!

So if I am overreacting, so be it. I wasn't all worked up about the thought that another kid is taunting DD, just looking for a strategy to deal with it. And in that the scissor thing came up. And that made me concerned that DD might not feel like she could approach an adult with a problem, if a serious one were to occur. The other teacher reviewed with the class yesterday what does NOT constitute tattling and we talked to DD about it again today.

I think it's all going to be just fine.

 

[AllyCatTapia]

"can tell you that tattling is a big problem in my class of 3-6 year olds. We discourage tattling unless there is a danger to person or property---we ask the children to try to settle disputes themselves if it is possible. This way, we are freed to actually teach and the children learn to problem solve"



This is exactly what I was going to say. Ongoing problems need to be dealt with parent to teacher and than parent to director, but I think the teacher has a point---- at some time your child is going to have to learn to deal with this kind of thing herself. You're not going to be there in 4th,5th,6th grade to interecept when she is unmercifully kicked out of her clique, are you? Your job, as a parent is to build up (BUILD UP) a strong, secure child who can deal with these kinds of things.

 

[sara74]

I just read your posts for the first time. Is there anywhere else your could send your daughter to preschool? I have had my share of situations with my kids and there are red flags everywhere, from the teacher's comments to how the director handled things. This may not be the popular thing to say, but if you are having this much trouble communicating with these people, how is a 4 year old supposed to deal with them on a daily basis. I think you did the right thing for your child by not letting it go.

Thanks for the support. I think part of the problem was that I didn't talk to the teacher first and then management came down really hard on her. I knew she was joking, but she wasn't there for me to talk to about it. Nor was the other teacher there at drop off as DDs class is combined with another in the first hour. So I'll admit blame that I went to the director too soon...

The teacher who made the comment had DD when she was 2 as well and I know she loves her dearly. She is a mother of 3 herself and has worked there for years. She even said today that she knows of the 2 PreK teachers that she is the gruffer one and that she was unaware that DD really took that one comment to heart. Also, that the comment about tattling wasn't directed at DD, but she seemed to internalize it quite a bit.

Other than this one issue, that I will admit I could have handled better, we have no problems with the center or either child's classroom in particular. As for the other kid, if not her, then someone else. DH expressed relief that they will go to different K programs as we live in different towns and I told him that there will be another girl just like her in our town when the time comes...I'm just hoping we will know how to deal with it and I hope my DD doesn't become that child to someone else's child!

 

[sara74]

"can tell you that tattling is a big problem in my class of 3-6 year olds. We discourage tattling unless there is a danger to person or property---we ask the children to try to settle disputes themselves if it is possible. This way, we are freed to actually teach and the children learn to problem solve"



This is exactly what I was going to say. Ongoing problems need to be dealt with parent to teacher and than parent to director, but I think the teacher has a point---- at some time your child is going to have to learn to deal with this kind of thing herself. You're not going to be there in 4th,5th,6th grade to interecept when she is unmercifully kicked out of her clique, are you? Your job, as a parent is to build up (BUILD UP) a strong, secure child who can deal with these kinds of things.

This is a quote from my original post...
We have been trying to work on solutions for DD ranging from walk away, to tell your teacher, to tell her that saying mean things makes you not beautiful on the inside, etc.

The official rule in the class is try to talk it out and if it continues, then tell the teacher. DD was not telling the teacher at all and told me that she wasn't because of the scissor thing. I think that was an issue. At some time she IS going to have to deal with this herself. 10, 11 and 12 years old are a bit different from 4, aren't they? In the very first post I mentioned, as quoted above, that we were trying different things for DD to do, some of which have no adult involvement at all. I think 4 years old, however, is a tad too young to just write something off as deal with it yourself.





Thanks again to everyone who has posted. I think everyone had valid points and your experiences are appreciated greatly.




Now back to your regularly scheduled programs of stroller questions (of which I asked several myself!) and much more FUN things...

 

[Luv'sTink]

IMHO, I feel you did exactly the right thing!

IMHO, SOME people who are teachers think they know so much more about children than their parents do, THOSE teachers however are wrong a lot of the time! Just because someone has a teaching degree doe's not make them the know all, see all and tell all of children. As stated previously "Teacher's are only human." AND not all children fit in a cookie cutter, EVERY child is different. I DO volunteer at my son's school and see how some of these teachers treat kids and I have told the Principal, "My child will not be in X's class". DS 2nd grade teacher told me she would not put any of her students in X's class, that X was just to negative!

 

[torinsmom]

DS 2nd grade teacher told me she would not put any of her students in X's class, that X was just to negative!

Maybe a little off the topic, but if a teacher at our school made a negative comment like that about another teacher, they would be lucky not to be fired! That is not their place and it is not professional! I look at it this way; different teachers work well with different kids.

One of my hardest tasks this year was helping to place my rising 1st graders in their new classes. We had some who needed a really sensitive teacher and other who needed someone who would be strict and not take any crap, and others in between.

Marsha

 

[barkley]

as a parent and former teacher i understand and can appreciate the concept of "talk to the teacher first" but i don't think it's appropriate in every situation. there are times when it is better to go to the supervisor/principal/director right off the bat. too often the rules, guidelines, procedures are written "in stone" but practicly applied differently by individual teachers. i have found this to be much more so in preschool settings.

it is VERY difficult for a young child to be "told" one set of rules but to "live" another-and even more difficult when they have a "team" of teachers/aides/parent helpers who administer the rules/consequences differently.

when my kids were in preschool, i had heated conversations with preschool teachers who insisted that either i or my child were not doing something according to a center/school's way of doing it-often times we were doing something in the manner another or prior teacher had taught or "exampled through their actions". i found that going to the director resulted in the realization (on the center/school's) part that misinterpretation (or more often-personal preference interpretation) of practices was regularly occuring. i also found that while i was often "the squeeky wheel" in verbalizing my complaints/concerns to the director, there were multitudes of parents who had complained to the teachers of the same issues but they were never addressed (if an individual-in any profession-is knowingly doing something that they may be deemed inappropriate by a supervisor, how likely will they advise their supervisor of "client/customer" complaints? not likely, and if they don't choose to change the behaviour of their own initiative it will simply continue).

i'm very lucky at this point in my kid's education-they attend a k-8th 2 room school house and have had the same 2 teachers for k-2nd, and 3-8th-so there is consistency in the manner in which things operate. that's no to say i have never complained-i have, and it gets very frustrating when your child's teacher is also the principal of the school-but even she has a supervisor, as well as a school board to which she is accountable, and both are available if i feel an issue is such that speaking to her directly is not the best choice.

 

[Luv'sTink]

Maybe a little off the topic, but if a teacher at our school made a negative comment like that about another teacher, they would be lucky not to be fired! That is not their place and it is not professional! I look at it this way; different teachers work well with different kids.

One of my hardest tasks this year was helping to place my rising 1st graders in their new classes. We had some who needed a really sensitive teacher and other who needed someone who would be strict and not take any crap, and others in between.

Marsha

I think she was looking out for the best interests of the kids. Children learn by example, that is what I hear all the time. (School news letter)

It wouldn't be good if the teacher that doesn't "take any crap" ends up with the sensitive child but it happens.

 

[torinsmom]

Of course, you have to go to the director if there is something big going on, but our school asks that parents try to work it out with the teachers and if THAT doesn't work, then a meeting with the parents, teacher, and director is set up. Obviously, the parent would go further if the situation was not resolved, or the teacher may do so as well(I have had to bring a parent into the director for verbally abusing us constantly)

In OP's situation, going to the director didn't really accomplish anything except putting the teachers on the defensive. Sounds like the situation could have been resolved without going to the director. And now, like it or not, the relationship between the teacher and the parents will be strained for some time. It is not a good feeling to be called into your director's office after you bust your butt to teach a classroom full of kids each day.

Adjusting to different expectations is a part of life. At our school, we have certain guidelines that the whole school follows, but then some classrooms have added guidelines as well. Actually the children do much better than the parents with the differences. We have had parents say that all our preschool classrooms should be the same, but that is ridiculous! Different teachers have different teaching styles and even the same teacher has to change things up according to the dynamics of the classroom. Luckily our director is also a teacher, so she backs us up.

Teaching is one of those professions that I think every parent should have to try fulltime for at least a week. It is not easy, the pay is lousy, and you very rarely feel appreciated. So, why do I teach? You know the way you feel when your child takes his first steps? Well, that is how I feel when I teach a child to read, or add, or tie his shoes, or to master a thousand other tasks. Its a great feeling!


Marsha

 

[barkley]

i see no problem with different classroom/different rules-it just gets hard for little ones who may have "miss x" for the morning and "mrs y" during lunch/recess and "miss z" for afternoons in the SAME classroom to have different procedures or expectations for the same thing (i've heard kids get so upset when reprimanded over something saying "but that's how 'mrs. y' told me to follow the rule" and "miss x" saying "well, mrs.y isn't here now-so it's my rules" kids are adaptable, but they also learn by example-so how's a kid to learn "the rules apply to everybody" when some teachers feel the rules do/don't apply to their individual situation?

and in the op's situation (esp. re. the scissors comment with finger motions) i think the teacher was fortunate to just get talked to by the director-proven, it would have been grounds for immediate termination at the centers i worked at/the one's my kids attended. a comment/hand gesture of that nature is totaly inappropriate and unprofessional. i would be interested to know what action they would have taken if a parent volunteer or another child had made a similar comment and gesture-i tend to think both would have been subject to a great deal of discussion on appropriate adult/child or child/child interaction and perhaps not allowed back into the classroom.

 

[torinsmom]

So, we are talking different rules with different teacher IN THE SAME CLASSROOM? That is not appropriate at all! For one, children need consistency with teachers, as well as with rules. It is just me and my assistant all day during the school year, and although we have different personalities, the rules are the same. I feel so bad if I am out; once I even came in with a migraine because I knew my assistant was on vacation, and I didn't want the kids to have two subs in the room.

I don't think the teacher's actions were a cause for dismissal. Obviously, other children did not go home and tell this to their parents, so it must have been done in a joking manner. The teacher learned that that was not an appropriate way of addressing that issue, because some kids are more sensitive and literal than others. Now, if the siutation was repeated, that would be a cause for dismissal, because they have been spoken to about it.

At our school, the teachers from the level before are very involved with placing children in their next classroom. Because we are a Montessori school, the kids stay in the same class for three years, so it is important that the kids connect with their teachers. Of course, sometimes the kid and teacher(or parent and teacher) do not "click" and admin will help to get that child in a more suitable class. We do need the strict teachers AND the sensitive teachers and others in between, because kids are so different. I had some this year that would not learn anything if they were not in a very disciplined and regimented classroom.

Marsha

 

[Mariposa]

At the conference today things got off to a really bad start! The two teachers started by telling me that they had problems with DDs social and emotional development. I got defensive and asked why, if they had problems did they not approach me sooner and then they got defensive and so on. Well, we finally got out of each other that the way the director handled things with them and the actual concerns that I expressed were not quite the same. They were told that I was unhappy with them in general, that DD was afraid to come to school, etc, etc. So once I assured them that we are otherwise happy, like I have said before, things calmed down. We ended up with an hour and a half long conference and everyone is good. I think the way that they were approached was harsher than necessary, I knew they were joking but I also knew that DD didn't understand that, and a simple explanation of that and a reassurance that kids should approach the teachers when they have a problem.

While I completely understand that the teachers are human and make mistakes, my biggest concern in this situation would be that they made false comments regarding your daughter's development. It's one thing for them to be upset with you for the fact that you went to the director without talking to them first, and it would have been appropriate for them to address you about it.. However, to state that your daughter has lag in her development because they are angry with you? How unprofessional. What would have happened if you hadn't worked through this? You'd walk around with this worry that something was developmentally wrong with your child simply because they didn't know how to correctly channel their anger at you? I wouldn't want my child in a classroom run by people who behave that way.

Seriously, I get that the teachers had a right to be angry, but to express it by LYING about your child in order to hurt you? Ick.

 

[torinsmom]

I do agree that the statement that they were concerned about your daughter's social and developmental progress was out of place, especially considering they didn't expand on that? Or did they, but that wasn't part of the discussion here?

Marsha