OT-Discipline for 4 year old

[antree]

Terrible two's never existed in my home It was down hill once my daughter hit 4 yrs old, she is now 12 and I feel like she is still 4 at times. The screaming, hitting, throwing things, just plan old melt downs she had was enough to drive me crazy. Taking things away from her didn't matter or any other punishment, she would say "I don't care, Whatever". When she was 4 I would sit her on the bottom step and give her time out, that worked for awhile, then it was all men, women and childern for themseleves

I really don't have any advice, as I am still trying to figure out little girls.
My Grandmother always said, "girls are hard to raise, she would take a boy any day". I never understood why she would say that until I had my DD. She has a mind of her own and stands for what she wants, which is good, but hey, give me a break I am your Mother, you wouldn't be here if it wasn't for me.

I though about counseling for her and then for me she was driving me insane.
One minute she is the devil span the next, she loves you with all her heart.

You are not alone, little girls know what they want and they are going after it.
Be patient, I am living proof you will live through it. I am glad I am not alone, but I am sorry you are going through it now.

I have a 4 yr old son and he tries to push his limits, but he doesn't go through with it, he knows what the limits are. He tells me all the time "We are in Love and I am his Heart"
I am keeping my fingers cross on this one.

 

[Plantlady]

When my four year old throws a fit, he is sent to his room, to calm down. We don't talk about the problem, until he can talk in his big boy voice. If he doesn't calm down on his own after a period of time, I go talk to him, perhaps just for a moment, telling him, I still looking forward to talking to him, so he doens't feel forgotten.

As for toys pick up. He has to pick up one thing, before getting out another. At the end of the day, whatever is left on the floor goes away. We also have specific spots where everything belongs, so, it is easy for him to pick things up. He knows right where they belong.

Loosing toys is the best punishment for him. If he does something wrong, he will loose a favorite stuffed animal, or his blankie. Time outs do occur when he does something particularly bad, such as hit.

Mostly, I just stick with what I say I will do. I praise him when he is well behaved, and follow the punishments that I say I will do, no matter how cute he is, and how much I just want to hug and cuddle with him.

 

[Liberty Belle]

I feel your pain. My ds (4 in November) is having the opposite problem - he's great (for the most part) at home, but terrible at school.

He's always been a typical child in school. He's been in time out on occasion, didn't listen, etc, but in the past couple of months, he's just been terrible. He's hit other kids, hit teachers, run out of the room, thrown food. I just don't know what to do.

I had a meeting with his main teacher and the school director and they both said he is very smart and a delightful, funny child when dealing with him one-on-one, but in the classroom is a terror. We're starting a new reward system with him at school that is tied into what he gets to do at home. So far it doesn't seem to be working, but it was only started a week ago.

I went to pick him up yesterday and when his teacher saw me she just sadly shook her head. I feel just horrible. I want that time to be a happy time, not sad.

 

[mom2cookies]

ah i feel for all of you who are having difficulties with your children. I have 3 girls and 1 boy. Ages 10 - 15. My two middle girls would throw tantrums and the one still does somewhat. With one, she was more violent towards herself and me. She was just out of control plain and simple. What i would do with her (after i calmed down and got past the smaller issue of whatever set her off) was to sit on the floor and sit her infront of me and wrap my legs around hers and my arms around her... usually holding her wrists to keep control of her hands. I would gently speak comforting words to her and let her know she was ok to try and calm down and i would pray for her. When she stopped struggling physically, i would release her wrists and lay her head down and physically soothe her like stroking her hair or face or rubbing her back etc. Some days it took a looooong time others not so long. She does flare up quickly now, but with just a warning to get her self under control she is doing great.
Now with the other one, ever since she was a baby she would throw tantrums and nothing would please her. Not that i gave into her tantrum, but just trying to figure out what was wrong in the first place. With her, i would put her in her room/ bed and tell her when she was done she could come out/ down stairs and we would talk and she could tell me what was wrong.
As far as wanting things in stores, they learned early that no means no. Now they save what ever money they earn.... yard work , house work, babysitting, etc for what they want. We never did give allowances. When they were very small, they would be allowed to pick 1 inexpensive thing if they had done something to deserve it. No helping or obedience...no " prize".

For some great advice, help and tips that really work, visit Flylady.com. Her ideas and ways of doing things really do work.

Good luck to all of you.

 

[bgirl29]

We took a course offered by our school's social worker based on several books called something like Parenting with love and logic. Maybe someone else knows what I am talking about and can help with the title. But this helped us a lot with our middle daughter who was around 7 at the time but still having a lot of temper tantrums when she did not get her way. She learned that when we told her something it did not mean we wanted to discuss it with her, that she was to follow our directions. We became better at catching her being good, and she learned that her choices had consequences. I would really recommend one or more of these books, I will try to double check the title and get back to you. Hang in their and be consistent and things will get better!!!!

 

[TENIA66]

I recommend giving instructions before every trip to town then be ready to up and leave at the first sign of escalating behavior. If you stage it correctly, say a trip to the toy store with specific instructions you are just looking then leave the second a fit is thrown, it won't take many trips home to stop the behavior....

 

[First timer]

No, she has been in school/daycare (same one) for the past 2 years and has been way ahead of everyone in her class with reading, math, etc. She could care less about it now when in the past she loved reading and doing puzzles and learning everything she could. She was always very curious and asked alot of questions. Now, she has that nonchalant attitude like a teenager and will even roll her eyes at me and look sarcastic!

I ask because my daughter is the same - went to nursery school but just started Kindergarten this year and it is now a full day for her w/a curriculum and she has been acting the same way. I am trying to give her a little time because of the adjustment. I did punish her though last weekend and that seemed to help a bit. She had a play date and I cancelled it, also no video games, computer access, sand box, bike riding etc. and lots of extra chores. She has been a little better since. She too has had that attitude like a teenager- when she was acting out the other day I tried to speak with her about her behavior - at the end of our discussion she said "and your point is?" . Hence her punishment - She wanted to know why I would punish her for a whole weekend just like her 16 yr old sister and so I told her that if she wanted to act like one she would suffer the same consequences.

 

[LaraK]

Sounds like my morning! DD is horrible lately (4 going on 16). She is rude and disrespectful to me, but wonderful to everyone else. This morning she woke up evil and got worse from there. We were going out to pick something up for her (a mouse for the lap top so that she and daddy can work together to teach her computer skills). She was so terrible I had finally had it and declaired that she could not go. She spent the entire morning in her room. What was interesting is that she napped today (something she hasn't been doing lately). I guess she was just tired.

I do feel your pain!

 

[twinz]

Did you ever try a timer? 4 year olds have no real concept of time. I used to work in a daycare with 16 4/5 year olds. I found the timer worked great. I would give them a 5 minute warning (at trasition times) and set the timer. When it would ring they would know what was to happen next (usually time to clean up). We also had a routine. Children thrive on routine and they like to know what's next, no surprises. I mean the odd time I would throw them for a loop, but most of them handled it very well. Good luck with her. ALso with the 7 year old if she screams at you walk away from her and tell her that you will listen to her when she is talking in a nice voice. That may tick her right off at first but dont answer her or even look as her, she will get tired of trying to get your attention the wrong way and should calm down.
Twinz

 

[jnordan]

I agree with a lot of what's been said, but I'll just reiterate what I think is most important. (By the way, my oldest daughter just turned 4, and she has her mood swings, too! And her newest thing is "sass", but I think we've got it under control . . .)

Oh, and keep in mind that if she's great at school, but as you described at home, then it could be a compliment! I really do believe that children bottle up their hard feelings for a place where they feel safe to "blow their top". It could be that she's using any small excuse with you as an opportunity to let out frustrations and stress from school/daycare (Susy said something mean, she didn't draw her circle as well as Ben, who knows . . .).

Anyways, after MUCH reading during some of our more difficult spells, I've sort of come to not bothering with time-outs, removing privileges, etc. . . Not that this works perfectly, but I really try to look for natural consequences. You don't want to brush your teeth? Fine, no sugar AT ALL the next day. You don't want to get dressed? Well, you HAVE to, because it's 20 degrees outside, so either you cooperate or we do it the hard way. You don't want to get out of the tub? Well, it's getting late and I'm tired, so I guess that if we eat up time in the tub, then we won't have time for our story tonight . . . You get the idea. We've had meltdowns, but usually it happens once (brushing teeth, for example), and she learns the lesson. Most of the time I can come up with something, though I have gotten stuck a few times. And it's not perfect. I still don't like my "getting dressed" response (and it isn't working well, either), and occasionally, the "natural consequence" has been an awful lot like time-out. . . Sometimes, I take the time-out, actually! If she's not talking to me respectfully, sometimes I'll tell her that I don't like the way she's talking to me, and so I'm going to go do something else in another space -- we can resume story time or whatever when she's ready to treat me nicely.

The problem with time-outs and removing things/privileges is that it often seems arbitrary and/or they can't really be enforced. Then it just becomes a power struggle.

Also, I do find that giving lots of choices helps, and often, I'm learning, when my daughter is going through these phases it's because she's ready for more independence and responsibility but can't find it. I learned this when she was about three. I was trying to think of what she was good at and how I could play on that. . . so I rearranged my kitchen so that she could get her own snacks, make her own bowl of cereal, etc. She loved it and it literally ended a many-weeks-long down-turn in her behavior. Even now, when her pitcher of milk (I ordered it through a Montessori catalog for like $4) isn't in the fridge where she can reach it, she'll remind me! Lately, I've been trying to find genuine (but simple) ways that she can help me clean up or prepare meals, and it really seems to be working. Tonight she picked all of the grapes off of the stems and put them in a bowl so they could be washed while I made dinner. She LOVED it.

And finally, I agree with the "choose your battles" approach. I'm not great at this, but I'm trying. A lot of things just aren't worth it. . . .

Good luck!

 

[mamax2]

I don't have any advice, my oldest is just 25 months, but I'm thinking I'm in for it in a couple of years. Yikes! So far she's been pretty good. However, any advice on what to do when a two year old starts hitting adults? Not hard enough to hurt, but not good all the same. I think, personally, that she's probably frustrated at not being fully understood all the time, because she's still fills in quite a few gaps in her conversations with her own "language", but all the same, I don't want her hitting. It's never other kids, she never, ever goes after her baby sister, but adults are another story. I give her time outs in her room, which she hates, but it hasn't stopped the hitting completely, it only stops her for the day, or sometimes just a few hours. How do you get through to her that this isn't appropriate behaviour?

 

[luvsmickeymouse]

No to sound mean but this thread has me laughing at your pain. Last night we watched Bill Cosby Himself and all I can think about was when he said "Let the beating commence."

My children are now 11 and 9 and I remember those horrible tantrums. The ones when the body looses all feeling, they become limp and have no bones. Dont you just love kids. I know that walking away and staying calm only work so long. When the sounds of them screaming grate at your soul Just try to stay calm and be consistant. I cant really give you any advice since my oldest is a preteen and Im in for a whole new set of tantrums. Just know that you are not alone.

Group hugs to you and best of luck.

Kerri

And my kids are 16 and 19 so I have been there too. It does get better. I learned not to react to a tantrum, it takes alot of practice. My youngest was the worse, OMG, I couldn't believe he was my child. And stubborn~ He even wore his pajamas to school. LOL! The pajama episode was his choice not mine. One time he didn't want to wear his coat to school in the middle of winter. So I said, ok, I will bring it just in case you change your mind and out the door we went. By the time we got to school he had his coat, hat, and mittens on.

I think what helps is having consequences for their actions. Being consistent.
Having a good bed time and nap time, even though they don't fall asleep, I didn't care if they laid on their beds and looked at books, they had to rest every afternoon for an hour or so. LOL, they usually fell asleep after telling me they wern't tired and didn't need a nap.

Both of my kids were and are good eaters. I never made it a battle. I just put whatever we were having on their plates, and they ate what they wanted. I never made something different for one. Kids will eat when they are hungry. They ended up trying everything on their plates.

They are both great young adults. I am very proud of them and love them both very much.

 

[newtowdw1]

Just be careful with all the choices you let them have. As a high school teacher I'm living with the 'natural consequences' of kids always having a choice. "Don't want to do your homework, fine. You'll fail" Parents can't figure out why the kid is ok with that. Most times you, as a parent, just have to make the decision and enforce it. To me it's not acceptable that they don't do what they're told. For example, "Don't pick up your blocks or lose a marble." As a kid, I'd lose the marble. And the blocks don't get picked up.

I don't have a lot of answers, but be careful. A battle you fight now for control may stave off issues when they're 16 and making life-changing choices. If they know you mean business as little kids, they'll more likely obey when they're big. THis is what I've witnessed. Parents who never really had control don't when the kids are teens. Parents who fought the battles and had control, do have control when the kids are teens.

flame suit on.

 

[belle&beast]

Just be careful with all the choices you let them have. As a high school teacher I'm living with the 'natural consequences' of kids always having a choice. "Don't want to do your homework, fine. You'll fail" Parents can't figure out why the kid is ok with that. Most times you, as a parent, just have to make the decision and enforce it. To me it's not acceptable that they don't do what they're told. For example, "Don't pick up your blocks or lose a marble." As a kid, I'd lose the marble. And the blocks don't get picked up.

I don't have a lot of answers, but be careful. A battle you fight now for control may stave off issues when they're 16 and making life-changing choices. If they know you mean business as little kids, they'll more likely obey when they're big. THis is what I've witnessed. Parents who never really had control don't when the kids are teens. Parents who fought the battles and had control, do have control when the kids are teens.

flame suit on.

I think you need to remember that every kid is different and the OP just asked for some ideas. I am the poster with the marble jar and it works for us. The toys get picked up, if they didn't I would find another way to make it work. With our kids, staying clam and giving choices as well as a consequence works. If they refuse, they lose the opportunity to make the choice and then it is made for them. I don't think anyone is trying to say that kids should be in control, I always have the control, but I also give my kids choices to make them feel like they do have some control of the situation which eliminates a power struggle.

 

[jnordan]

OK, I'll bite, too!

Of course choices have to be limited, and of course sometimes there just ISN'T a choice -- like when safety is involved.

But, to use your example of picking up the toys. . . . If the choice is "lose the marble or pick up your toys", and after a time or two the toys still aren't being picked up, then of course an in-tune parent will recognize that the natural consequence isn't working and something else has to happen. I would expect it to take a time or two for the child to realize that s/he would rather have her/his toys to play with, and in my house that's always been the experience. It avoids the power struggle and teaches a lesson. Maybe another natural consequence in this example would be "if I have to pick up the toys, then I'll be too tired to go to the playground later/do that craft project/whatever", or "we treat our things with care, since you don't want to do that, we'll have to limit your toys to -- some small amount (the others go in the attick or wherever)". . . But I do think that natural consequences work and teach the child responsibilty, decision making and lots of other good things! How COULD you FORCE a child to pick up his/her toys?

Oh, and I just want to throw in that the parent's expectatios have to be realistic, too. I mean, I still don't expect my 4 year old to clean up the entire playroom, but I do expect her to help me.

As for control. . . I think that if my child grows up respecting me and able to make her own good choices (which natural consequences teach), then power struggles later on will be more easily addressed. I don't want my child to feel that I control them, or that she's (I have two girls) not able to make her own decisions. Natural consequences guide your children into making the decisions you HOPE they'll make.

Again, it's easy to talk like this. I'm just spurting philosophy here, I guess. In real life, we have plenty of tantrums in my house. And I lose my temper more than I'd like . . . Nobody is perfect, but I think it's good to have an idea of what perfect would be! I'd rather compare myself to something I'm trying to be, then to something that "thank goodness, I'm not!"

OK, my 4 year old is pulling at my arm. I'm off!

 

[newtowdw1]

I'm glad the marbles work for you. Really! Just warning in general about everything being a choice. I HAVE a tantrumer. I KNOW every kid is different and that there are 100s of discipline choices each of us make every day. Just wanted to alert of a potential pitfall in the teen years.

 

[Grendalynn]

I, too, can symapthize with your situation, OP. I have read most all of the reply and very much agree with many of the things other have said or suggested: Praising Positive Behaviour, A Point Systems (AKA Bribery), Picking your battles, and eye for an eye, and so on and so forth.

I had posted earlier in the summer what a hard time I had/was having/am having with DS#2 who is 3.5... This summer I was at my wits and and saw ro reliefe in sight. Fortunatly, he has come out of it for the most part, I must have been in the thisckest part of it now in hind sight, but it was rough and I felt like I should just throw the towel in. Stick a fork in me, I was done, fed up and didnt know what to do next... Thats when I started "boot camp". Or so I called it at the time. All gloves were off and I had to fix it before it got worse. I was 7+ months pregnant, DH was working away from home for days on end and had to muster up the "balls" and ambition to really take charge of the situation. This is mostly what we learned from trail and error. Every family is different, so what works fro one, may not work for others. Here is my philosophy and what has worked for me/us (and thank God for Supper Nanny and Nanny911)...

1) Encourage positive behaviour: When the child does soemthing good/nice, let them know that you saw it and you are proud of them. This is when a point tystem can be effective....

2) Make deals: If you do this for me - I will do this for you. Rather than them get get get all the time , they have to earn things. If you pick up your toys, then we will go to the park... if you eat 3 more 'shark bites' of your dinner, then we will get out dessert

3) Represussions (sp?): I am a big believer of reprecussions. For each action, there has to be an equal or opposite reaction. Meaning - If you bite me, I will bit you - obvioulsy not in a dracula kind of way, but this was how we handles it and our boys only bit a few times... If you run away from me while getting dressed, you will sit in the time out chair. We gave the boys a timer and set it 1 min for each year they are old. When it beeps, the have to apologize to get out of the chair.

4) Consistency: We were sure that we stuck to our guns no matter how fried or tired we were. DH was fair more lax at times that I was, and this was a battle of itself, but thats another story for another day.

5) as they say; if you behave, your children will too. And I never believed this untile DH and I went thru a rocky stage... We would banter and bicker and so did the boys. Once we were back ontrack, the boys attitudes imporved as well.

6) "The Gold Rule" : This is something that was burned and drilled into my head as a child and I have instilled it with my boys... "treat others as you want to be threated". DS#2 who is 3 1/2 went thru a time of not sharing and being mean and beligerant to other kids, so we used to say over and over, "Now how would you feel if so and so treated you like that?" or " remeber how you felt when so and so did that to you? And did you like it?"

7) Trantrums and melt-downs: I say let them have at it. As long as they are safe as PP stated, let them go! They need to learn that it gets them no where and they can kick and scream until they are blue in the face, but they wont get their way. If you give in when they do that - they will continue to play that card so that they get what they want,when they want it. After my boys put up a stink or try to have a bad spell, I say "Now, where is having a bad spell going to get you", and DS's both pipe up and say "no where". Its taken a lil bit of time to train DS3 that, but hes catching on...

8) Pick your battles: Is it "that" big of a deal ?? So what if DS or DD isnt eating all of the dinner when out to eat - they are being quite and sitting nicely an politley. Praise them for what they are doing well, not punish them for what they are doing badly. My sister uses the saying, :its only a big deal, if I make it a big deal". I find this works, but be sure not to use it all the time.

9) That may work in Little Johnny's Family, But not in our Family: Whats good fort he goose isnt always good for the gander. DS7 has a friend that is one of the most spoiled rotten kids on our street - after they spend some time together DS will bring home antics like his friend. I he will alk back to his mother when she walks over to get himand dinner time - I remind him that that may fly at his house, but not ours. He quickly snaps out of it; as I remind him they just wont play anymore if he picks up on it frequently.

10) the 123 Count: Probably the most effective thing in our house for sure! I actually just used it a moment ago when DS7 was complaining about something. He tried "negotiating", and I said NO, he still dindt like the answer, but by the time I got to 3, he was gone and settled on my rule. If I get to 3, all deals are off. They soon learn who is boss and what we say goes. We run the house, not them....

Most all parents out there have been in the same situations as we all have mentioned and they can sypmathize with what goes on. And the ages vary but are all very much the same issues. Some strangers will look cross eyed at you in the supermarket or whereever when DS/DD is having a melt down, but they just dont remember what its like to have, or never had, small children. I usually just make a snide comment and go about my business/parenting...

I am by no means an expert, but these are a few things that I have found work with our family. I think once you lose control and don't try to fix it, they will run you and your life as they grow older...

I hope that it may shed some light and help someone out there. Even if its only for one instance out there in DisLand!!??

 

[belle&beast]

I'm glad the marbles work for you. Really! Just warning in general about everything being a choice. I HAVE a tantrumer. I KNOW every kid is different and that there are 100s of discipline choices each of us make every day. Just wanted to alert of a potential pitfall in the teen years.

They don't ALWAYS have a choice and many times the choice is a consequence to not following the given directions: pick up now, or go to your room (the mess will be waiting for them when they are ready to cooperate.) I have worked with jr. high kids and I know the kind of thing you are talking about, but I really don't think we are on that kind of track. I was just offering a suggestion about what worked for us when we were in the same situation as the OP with a 4 year old DD that suddenly began to act out.

 

[pweyl36]

My trick for picking up toys is too tell them first,then after a few minutes if it still not done then i tell them " well i guess im not going too make lunch or dinner till the toys are picked up."(not that i would starve my kids)but it works. Also disaplaine has to start early. When my children turned 9mos. i would start using the word "no". when they would touch things or pull hair or
bite. This seemed to work for my family and sisters too. I have no problem taking them to a store a looking at toys with out buying them.if the ask i just tell them too ask santa.I also had my share of tanturms with my daughter. She was aloud to have them but in her room with the door shut,then I would tell her when she was done she could come out.let me tell you this did not last long because nobody would pay attention to her.

 

[badblackpug]

This is all about control. A child that gets you angry, upset, or makes you late for work, controls you. I agree that a child should be allowed to make some choices within a structured frame work (you can choose what to wear to school from a choice of 2 different outfits, you can choose what cereal to eat for breakfast, you can choose whetehr you want to pack turkey or pb&j in you lunch) Try to get most of theses mundane tasks out of the way the night before. Make and pack lunch and put it in the fridge, choose outfit and lay it out, set table for breakfast and set out cereal. and make the child stick to their choice in the morning.

A few things I have learned. Ignore a tantrum. Don't "talk about it" don't yell or scream, walk out of the room. None of this "now that you are calm we will discuss what the problem was" mess. A tantrum is bad behavior and should never be reinforced. As a matter of fact, a timeout for the tantrum is in order. I also ignore whining. I also like the 1-2-3 magic approach. When you see the behavior escalating you can start counting. It usually heads it off.

Consistency, consistency, consistency. You must always be consistent. No is no is no. If you say "If you don't pick up your toys in 10 minutes, I will throw them out." DO IT! Children need to know you mean what you say. You must always follow through with threats or promises, good or bad.

A big ol' tantrum in the moring is a good way to control you. I peed you off, I made you late for work. Stick to your guns. Bundle up a screaming child, wrestle them into the car, and take them to school. You have no choice about school, you will go, on time. If need be you will go unwashed, uncombed, in your pajamas. (send a comb and clothes and tell the teacher to allow the child to get dressed during playtime -not work time- this will only happen once, sitting through 1/2 the morning in your pajamas is embarrasing)

Another thing is reinforcement for sass and eye rolling. Sooner or later that child will want something from you...and when they do... For example: School is out and you are home from work and the now happy child asks you "Mommy, will you color with me? The resonse should be, in a very calm and non-confrontational way, "Remember this morning when you didn't want to go to school and you told me "I hate you? Well that hurt my feelings and right now I do not feel like coloring with someone who would hurt my feelings like that, maybe I will feel differently tomorrow." Kids need to know that they must think before thay act or speak. (this works wonderfully for tweens and teens that always need a ride somewhere)

Reward good behavior, but not consistently (or thay will expect a reward every time) For example if she has not had a tantrum in some time point it out. "I have noticed that you have been very good about getting to school in the morning, I feel good about that, I feel so good that I think we will go to the zoo tomorrow." This points out good behavior and that a pleasant child is pleasant to be around.