OT: Behavior Problems possibly due to divorce?

[Nom]

You guys always have a lot of great parenting advice, so I figured I would post my problem because I am at my wits end with how to handle this behavior.

My dd is 4 years old, very vocal and very smart. My husband and I separated at the beginning of Dec and are getting divorced. He sees her Wed night (overnight) and every other weekend (fri night through monday morning). All in all, her behavior has been pretty good, and no reports home from school about behavior changes. But once in a while she has these terrible tantrums with no real cause, that come on super fast and then leave super fast. I don't want to be too hard on her because I know she is going though a lot, but I wonder if I am being too lenient? Last night was a typical example so I will let you know what happened and then I welcome your input.

I picked her up from school and we rented some videos, and made a plan for a special treat to eat dinner in front of the tv and watch the videos. She got ice cream from the video store for dessert. When we pulled into the driveway, she said 'what are we having for an appetizer' and I told her since we have dessert, we were not having an appetizer. That is what set it off. So she would not get out of the car, because she kicked off her shoes. I got the shoes, she would not put them on. So I took them myself, then she said, "I want my shoes". Then "I don't want my shoes". On and on.

Finally got her in and she was like "you fed the cats that is my job". I told her I didn't, look- their bowls are empty, and she was like "they ate it all, you're lying". All this in between being curled on the floor hysterical. Then it was "Go away" "Don't go away" "Go away". "I'm never happy" "I live no where" "I don't like you, you're bad". I told her it was ok to feel upset sometimes, was rubbing her back and giving her hugs and she was like "No it's not. yes it is. no it's not". and on and on.

Making dinner, continued scene of "I want to put the pasta in. No I don't. yes I do." So I said if you don't do it now, I am doing it. She says "I don't see the stepping stool" I say "that is up to you". So I put the pasta in. Hysterics. saying things like "You need to get my eyes checked, they are open but I can't see" (but she can see fine, she is lying). Finally, I helped her to pour the finished pasta back into the pot and presto- she is back to her normal sweet self, saying things like "I love you. you're my best friend". The tantrum probably lasted 30 min total.

My friend (with no kids mind you) says I am being too lenient, but I feel like she is dealing with a lot right now, and I have to reinforce the fact that I love her and am not going anywhere. These tantrums only happen about once a week or so- other than that everything is fine. What do you all think- should I be doing something differently? I just want to do what is right to make this transition as easy as possible for her.

Thanks so much for any and all input.
Noelle

 

[la79al]

It doesn't sound to me like you are being too lenient. She is going through a lot with the holidays just being over and her whole life being turned upside down. Try talking to her like 'I know you are not really this upset about an appetizer. I know there is something else going on. Can you tell me what it is?' If she can't, start guessing. If she is making statements like "I'm never happy" "I live no where" "I don't like you, you're bad" she is probably dealing with her own feelings as well as what she is hearing from both parents. As smart as she is, she doesn't understand what is going on. She knows what she hears and what she sees, but not what it means. Just talk to her a lot about what is happening to her and how the divorce is not because of her and don't let her hear you trash talk her father. But you are still going to get a lot of behaviors. She needs more than a month and a half to adjust. Good luck!

 

[badblackpug]

I think that this is definitely related to the divorce, but I also think you are being too lenient. She is having temper tantrums because her world feels out of control, and she is attempting to control it, unfortunately, through you. In my opinion there should be consequences for bad behavior, regardless of the cause of the behavior. I think children need to be taught to express their feeling in an appropriate manner, and a temper tantrum is not an appropriate manner. I would give her time out if she is having a tantrum and afterward explain to her, as you did, that it is ok to feel angry or sad or confused, but that she must express herself in an appropriate manner. Throwing herself on the ground is counter-productive.

Family counseling is a good idea. It will help her deal with her feelings and help you to deal with her behavior.

 

[brockash]

I would almost guarantee all of this is from the divorce, especially since she said the part about her not living anywhere. I think you're doing the right thing by trying to comfort her ect. My parent's seperated when I was 4, and I don't remember all that much, but I'm sure she's going through a lot and it's probably all very confusing to her ect. I'd just keep trying to help her, and keep explaining to her that you both still love her, it'll never change ect. and that sometimes mom's and dad's just don't get along, and that it's okay. I'd also make sure to keep reminding her that if she has a questions/concerns ect. to ask you about them and to talk to you and your ex. I'm not sure exactly what you are/aren't doing, but if she throws a tantrum, or does something that's not okay, I'd still give her a warning and then put her in time out, but still be mindful that it's a very hard time for her, and try to get her to talk to you about things after the time out. Good luck.

 

[luvmy3jewels]

Honestly, it sounds like your dd wants to feel like she has some control over her situation. Her world (as she knows it) has been turned upside down. I don't have any great advice, but to be firm and at the same time give her extra love and attention. It's still really early in your seperation/divorce and it will take time for her to adjust. I'm sure she also senses your feelings (and ex-dh).

Good luck!

 

[blackforest]

If everything was normal, would this be behavior that you would tolerate? How would you handle her tantrums? What are her boundries/limits?

We deal with this on a daily basis with our DD6 (since she was an infant) as we fight her BFather for custody/adoption.

When things are calm, talk about the consequences and what you expect of her behavior-wise. And always, always acknowledge her feelings. Things like, "I know that your confused (mad, disappointed), but screaming doesn't help". And yes a good therapist/psychologist (especially a pediactric one) is invaluable to help your DD sort out her feelings and give her coping mechanisms. Good luck!

 

[Nom]

Thanks so much for all the input so far!

I should mention that she would have tantrums like this in the past, but they were much more infrequent (maybe one every month or two). She would say during those tantrums that 'you're not my mommy' and 'I live nowhere'. So she has said those things already, but now it is much more frequent.

More opinions are definately welcome! During the tantrums sometimes she will try to hit, kick or spit, and if she does that I tell her that if she does that again I will walk away because we don't do that in our house. If she continues with that, I leave her alone to calm down and then come back and give her hugs and reinforcement when she has calmed down. Other than that behavior, I stay with her and talk to her when she is upset. My friend was like "if she said that to me I would just send her to her room", but I want her to know it is ok to express her feelings.

my husband and I's therapist, and books that I read, said that at the age of 4, they don't even consider that it is their fault, so I should not bring that up because it may just introduce more things for her to worry about. So I just tell her that I will always love her, and that I'll always be there, even when she is expressing upset feelings. My husband refuses to go to any more therapy with me. He is still very angry about the whole thing. I am past that, and don't badmouth him at all. I don't know what he does.

ugh! These tantrums are tough though- after 30 min it is hard to stay calm but so far I have been able to.

More input welcome, esp if there is anyone who has been there done that! Thanks again,
Noelle

 

[Nom]

If everything was normal, would this be behavior that you would tolerate? How would you handle her tantrums? What are her boundries/limits?

Like I mentioned, sometimes she would have these tantrums in the past, and honestly I used to handle it similarly to what I do now... not tolerate hitting etc but talk with her about her feelings. It's just so hard!

 

[cinderellamom123]

I run a daycare and am witnessing this first hand. Here is my opion.

1. Be consistant
2. Ignore her when she is having a temper tantrum. Walk away and discuss it later when she has calmed down.
3. Don't put your/her life on hold because of the divorce. These parents delay everything in their child's life for fear of upsetting them. They have delayed potty training, school, etc. The parents have stopped disciplining for fear of upsetting their children.

It will get better, but remember that you are the parent and we can't always be their "best friends"

 

[mom2faith]

DH and I are not going through any trouble and our DD4 is acting similar to this.

In the past week alone she has slammed her door so hard she knocked the smoke detector off of the wall, kicked, screamed, tried to run away (even though it was -40 here and I tried to explan to her she could get hurt in the cold) and on and on.

The worst was when I tried to talk to her about running away I told her I would miss her, to which she said "You can just have another baby and name it Faith and i will find a new mommy that is nicer than you!" My heart broke and I cried!! It was awful.

We are dealing with it one step at a time with the usual: time outs, toys taken away, etc. For us it seems to go in spurts and I know it has a lot to do with the holidays and being over-excited, etc.

I am strict with her when it comes to back talking and running away and will not take it. DH, well he has his moments, but he always backs me up. This is part of being 4. She is trying to gain control of some parts of her life (just as your daughter is) and we have to tough it out.

For your daughter, although I would chalk some of it up to being 4, she is going through a rough time. My best advice is to be sure you and exDH are being consistant. No warnings, just punishment for this behaviour each and every time. That is what we are doing.

Good Luck to both you and your daughter, you are dealing with a lot too, so do not forget to think about yourself

Amy

 

[Mickey'sfriend]

I agree that your dd needs lots of extra love and attention right now, but NOT during a temper tantrum. That just reinforces the bad behavior. I would send her back to her room when the tantrum starts with the message that when she is done with this she can come out - don't have any other conversation with her and ignore her while she is in her room screaming, throwing herself on the floor, etc. Then after she is back in control is the time to rub her back, cuddle, etc.

 

[ADisneyQueen]

Is she doing this right before meal or snack times? My dd and I are both hypoglycemic. When her blood sugar is low, she is really cranky and acts like a different person. I noticed that your story was taking place before dinner.
I'm sure she has stress from the separation, but I just wanted to ask about this.

 

[bumbershoot]

Yes there can be problems from divorce...I was 4 when my parents finally divorced and I had a really hard time with it.

But what you describe as what happened on the way home from the store sounds both Classic Four Year Old as well as being HUNGRY. If we have a long-ish day and have to make a few stops on the way home, and we know we still have to make dinner, we'll give DS a bit of cheese, or a MoJo bar to nibble on (from Clif bar, 70% organic, 8 or 9 gms protein in a bar, 180 calories for the whole bar) so that he can stay calm enough to deal with dinner being made.


And the other part that I always think of, because it has affected us SO much, is watching what she is actually eating. My son doesn't have violent tantrums anymore, since we realized that they were being caused by corn syrup (and high fructose corn syrup and even corn syrup solids...but cornstarch and actual corn are NOT a problem for us, at this point). Once we made sure that things with those ingredients are not in his diet, he's a much calmer tantrum-dude. I might really keep an eye on what she's eating shortly before those tantrums where she gets violent, b/c it might be as "simple" as taking certain foods out of her diet.


Lastly, to keep ourselves calm (and sometimes DS as well) we use Rescue Remedy, which is a flower essence that works basically like a homeopathic remedy. Miraculous. We were even recommended it for our cat on July 4th (when we had a cat) by an employee at Petsmart. If it can work on frightened cats, it can work on humans, too. Calms you right down.

 

[disnut1149]

Yes there can be problems from divorce...I was 4 when my parents finally divorced and I had a really hard time with it.

But what you describe as what happened on the way home from the store sounds both Classic Four Year Old as well as being HUNGRY. If we have a long-ish day and have to make a few stops on the way home, and we know we still have to make dinner, we'll give DS a bit of cheese, or a MoJo bar to nibble on (from Clif bar, 70% organic, 8 or 9 gms protein in a bar, 180 calories for the whole bar) so that he can stay calm enough to deal with dinner being made.


And the other part that I always think of, because it has affected us SO much, is watching what she is actually eating. My son doesn't have violent tantrums anymore, since we realized that they were being caused by corn syrup (and high fructose corn syrup and even corn syrup solids...but cornstarch and actual corn are NOT a problem for us, at this point). Once we made sure that things with those ingredients are not in his diet, he's a much calmer tantrum-dude. I might really keep an eye on what she's eating shortly before those tantrums where she gets violent, b/c it might be as "simple" as taking certain foods out of her diet.


Lastly, to keep ourselves calm (and sometimes DS as well) we use Rescue Remedy, which is a flower essence that works basically like a homeopathic remedy. Miraculous. We were even recommended it for our cat on July 4th (when we had a cat) by an employee at Petsmart. If it can work on frightened cats, it can work on humans, too. Calms you right down.

Hi
Where do you get Rescue Remedy. It sounds like something my family and I could use?
Thanks!!

 

[SharkyGoddess]

Hi
Where do you get Rescue Remedy. It sounds like something my family and I could use?
Thanks!!

http://www.rescueremedy.com/

 

[stepnut]

Divorce or no divorce, no child should be allowed to act like you describe. You are the parent, you set the rules, enforce the consequences. Kids are smart and they will learn really quickly to manipulate adults. Especially strong willed children...they are masters at entering into power struggles with parents. You cannot let them do that, and if you do, you cannot lose.

Get the book "Making Children Mind Without Losing Yours". There's some really great chapters about broken families, single parenting, and blended families.

You need to let go of guilt reguarding the divorce. Being easy on your child is not giving her a gift. It is only relieving your conscience, and that's not healthy parenting. Providing strong loving guidance, with discipline that is clear, consistent and effective...that's healthy. It's hard, but it's healthy.

 

[Nom]

Thanks everyone for your input. I think I do need to be a bit stricter when she is really out of hand. I'll pick up the book you suggested.

Looking back, you are right letting her have a healthy snack may have helped in this instance. These tantrums don't always start right before meals, so I don't think that is a cause but there is no reason not to let her have a healthy snack.

Anyway, I have a lot to think about and I appreciate your input! Thanks so much,
Noelle

 

[tmarquez]

My parents divorced when I was very young.

Yes, tantrums are bad. But what sticks out to me is her saying that she is never happy and doesn't live anywhere. A 4 yo that feels like she's never happy concerns me. I know some little girls can be very dramatic, I have a DD(6) and she will one day win an oscar...but I can't see a 4 yo saying she's never happy unless she has heard someone else say it...or really feels like that.

I would strongly suggest counseling...just to make sure everything is ok. Good luck to you and your DD.

 

[kellyg403]

My ds was 4 when his father and I got divorced. Though our situation was different in that his dad lived in another state at the time since he was military and ds had some issues with making sure that I would not leave him. But, he also had a lot of tantrums. A lot. I felt so badly for him. I knew he was going through stuff, it was hard on him etc. But, I do have to tell you...engaging them while the tantrum is going on is a BAD idea. Like another poster said, and ds counselor said, his life is out of control, allowing him to have inconsistent boundaries will only continue the behavior. How he would be disciplined before divorce should not change after it happens. It is lets divorce become the reason for everything in their life and starts a pattern that you can not have. Divorce sucks, for everyone. But, in her world it should not cause things to change. She has to learn that the only changes are daddy lives somewhere else and you live with her. Daddy is still her dad, he loves her, you love her and everything is going to fine.

Basically, it is wonderful that you are going that extra mile to show her its ok to have feelings and it is ok to be sad. What is not o.k. is how we express those feelings if we are doing it with a tantrum. Some of it IS age appropriate. So what would you have done before? Time out? After she has calmed down, simply let her know that the tantrums are not a good thing because it does not help us solve anything. You will be there for her if she wants to talk and STOP. Let it go. Continually letting it drag on is the worst idea in the world

That is just my 2 cents. I did learn a lot from the kids counselor. She did tell me on more than one occasion that letting divorce be an excuse for their bad behavior with zero consequences was setting myself and my family up for failure. There are many families that survive divorce and come out even BETTER than when the family was intact. That should be the goal.

Good Luck!
Kelly

 

[Villainess]

My parents divorced when I was very young.

Yes, tantrums are bad. But what sticks out to me is her saying that she is never happy and doesn't live anywhere. A 4 yo that feels like she's never happy concerns me. I know some little girls can be very dramatic, I have a DD(6) and she will one day win an oscar...but I can't see a 4 yo saying she's never happy unless she has heard someone else say it...or really feels like that.

I would strongly suggest counseling...just to make sure everything is ok. Good luck to you and your DD.

This stuck out with me as well. The visitation schedule with her Dad seems a bit much for her age, with his weekends her spending 4 nights not in her original, for lack of a better word, bedroom and the alternate weeks she sees him only once. Maybe the visitation needs to be adjusted.

I am divorced - separated from exDH when I was pregnant w/ DS and DD was 7 mos old. They see him Mon. and Wed. nights 6-9pm and Sat pick up 10 am overnight to Sunday at 6pm. On my weekends he sees them Mon Wed and Thurs 6-9pm. For my situation, I think the Thurs. are a bit much due to their bedtime schedules, but for the most part it works.

Another thing that I try to do with exDH, and it can be hard - I know - is make sure that you are keeping to the same bedtime, bathtime, etc rituals that she is used to. It will make her environment seem more normal. When I went for visitation scheduling, the counselor we worked with said kids just "adapt and get used to it" I hate that their needs aren't always looked at first, and they go by books to determine at what ages they are ready to have longer visits, longer overnights, etc, etc. rather than the specific child. Each child is different and maybe your DD just needs a more evened out visitation schedule to make her feel at home - both at your house and at your exDH's. HTH!