OT Attachement Parenting

[NemoMOm]

OMG, Lexmas I just read your post responding to the co-sleeping article, and as I was responding I was going to mention SWEDEN TOO!!!!

When I was in bf class we watched a video about how their gov't reimburses for bf! The moms actually get like a tax break or something simillar as an incentive for bf! Now, I love the US (I love being abroad too and would not move but maybe just until I'm done bf'ing

 

[lexmas]

I always find articles like that one frustratingly vague and incomplete. So 5 babies have died; 2 of them in cribs and 3 of them in beds, and that means everyone needs to start putting their babies to bed in cribs? That doesn't make any sense. Where are the statistics about 1. the total number of infant deaths in cribs versus in beds? 2. what percentage of babies are sleeping in beds vs. in cribs? (they quote one guy as saying 50%, but he doesn't seem to be speaking specifically to the Detroit population). They mention that the number of babies dying in beds has increased but don't say whether or not co-sleeping has increased at the same time (if more people are co-sleeping, one would expect the number to increase). What are the causes of death in all of these cases? They say all 5 babies "suffocated" but also that the deaths are still under investigation. Were the co-sleeping parents under the influence of drugs or alcohol? Were the crib babies left with too much bedding or stuffed animals? The article seems to want to convince me that crib sleeping is safer than co-sleeping, but gives me absolutely no evidence with which to reach that conclusion. All I've been able to discern from sifting through arguments from both sides of the debate is 1. there are dangers involved both in crib sleeping and co-sleeping and 2. the vast majority of babies are going to be okay no matter which way you go. In the absence of compelling evidence that one way of sleeping is significantly safer than the other, I'll go with what works best for my baby and my family. For this one, for right now, that's co-sleeping.

You know, I actually found this quite funny, because my first reaction was definitely to defend co-sleeping, but I didn't step back to think about it. 5 kids died, all from suffocation, 3 co-sleeping and 2 in cribs. So, given the margin of error of chance, and the fact that there are an uneven number of children, those "statistics" (because, well, we all know 5 isn't quite an adequate sample size) show that co-sleeping and crib sleeping are equally dangerous. Which is supposed to show that co-sleeping is bad? That made me when I stepped back to think about it, it's irrational to say that crib sleeping or co-sleeping is bad from looking at an experience like that. Can't we just say that it's a horrible thing that these babies died, and it just goes to show you that you have to be careful because bad things can happen whatever parenting choices you make? Good for you kokotg, being the rational one!

 

[lexmas]

OMG, Lexmas I just read your post responding to the co-sleeping article, and as I was responding I was going to mention SWEDEN TOO!!!!

When I was in bf class we watched a video about how their gov't reimburses for bf! The moms actually get like a tax break or something simillar as an incentive for bf! Now, I love the US (I love being abroad too and would not move but maybe just until I'm done bf'ing

Wow, is that so? My friend just told me I should live in Sweden, because, and I quote, "In Sweden if you're a breastfeeding mom, you rock!" Maybe I SHOULD really live in Sweden!

 

[jodifla]

I have lots of relatives in Sweden....I wouldn't say the family bed is rampant there. Last statistic I saw was about 23 percent.

I would imagine more Swedish women try breastfeeding longer, since they are paid to stay home for a year.

 

[jodifla]

You know, I actually found this quite funny, because my first reaction was definitely to defend co-sleeping, but I didn't step back to think about it. 5 kids died, all from suffocation, 3 co-sleeping and 2 in cribs. So, given the margin of error of chance, and the fact that there are an uneven number of children, those "statistics" (because, well, we all know 5 isn't quite an adequate sample size) show that co-sleeping and crib sleeping are equally dangerous. Which is supposed to show that co-sleeping is bad? That made me when I stepped back to think about it, it's irrational to say that crib sleeping or co-sleeping is bad from looking at an experience like that. Can't we just say that it's a horrible thing that these babies died, and it just goes to show you that you have to be careful because bad things can happen whatever parenting choices you make? Good for you kokotg, being the rational one!

There's a graphic that accompanies the article, detail how to keep your child safe in a crib. Things like no bumper, no blankets, using a sleep sack, etc.

The principal against co-sleeping is the same. If you don't want blankets in bed with an infant, why would you want two 100-plus pounds adults in there as well? (Not to mention with blankets and pillows in the adult bed, which are no-nos for an infant.)

 

[chobie]

My nephew was not circed when he was born. They had just found his mother had breast cancer a week before he was born and there was more pressing issues. Really everyone was just so happy he was healthy and here no one even considered otherwise.

At 10 he did have to have a circ preformed do to infection. Now if his mother was still around maybe he wouldn't have because she would have been more careful about teaching him hygiene and things like that. However his dad isn't as big on details like that as a mother would..............

If it wasn't for that story I would be sure I would not circ when I have a son (if). As it is I think I would most likely at least wait a few months until the baby was older before doing it (if I would.)


I have a number of friends who have boys who are intact. They have no issues.

Either way, what is done is done. Don't feel guilt over it. There is too much to feel guilt over in this life, especially as a parent. I think it is a very personal decision that parents need to make as a family. I support choices either way. I do think it is best to do research 1st and know what and why you are doing it. You can't go back.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I do not necessarily believe that all these boys in our country that "had to be circed because of infections" really had to be circed. What I mean is that I would like to see statistics on how many boys in countries that do not routine circumcision on boys "have" to circ later on because on infections.

There are many countries that do not circ their boys and if having to have it because of infections was so rampant I think there would be information out there.

Girls have bladder infections all the time and we do not perform surgery on them to "cure" it.

Also routine infant circ also results in complications, infections, mutilation etc.

 

[chobie]

I would imagine more Swedish women try breastfeeding longer, since they are paid to stay home for a year.

Now that is what I call family values.

 

[lexmas]

I have lots of relatives in Sweden....I wouldn't say the family bed is rampant there. Last statistic I saw was about 23 percent.

I would imagine more Swedish women try breastfeeding longer, since they are paid to stay home for a year.

Well, having never been in Sweden, I can only go by what my friend and her family have told me, that everyone they know thinks its normal to have your baby sleep with them. It is quite possible that they run in a social circle that does this.

There's a graphic that accompanies the article, detail how to keep your child safe in a crib. Things like no bumper, no blankets, using a sleep sack, etc.

The principal against co-sleeping is the same. If you don't want blankets in bed with an infant, why would you want two 100-plus pounds adults in there as well? (Not to mention with blankets and pillows in the adult bed, which are no-nos for an infant.)

There are rules for safe co-sleeping as well, which include keeping pillows and blankets away from the baby. The other people, however, generally pose no risk to the baby, unless, of course, they are under the influence etc.. It's fine that you don't want to co-sleep, but I don't see the point in trying to convince those of us that do that it's dangerous, because I would think that the people on this thread have probably taken the appropriate measures to ensure our children's safety in our beds, as I'm sure you have done the same to ensure your children's safety in their cribs. I find it insulting that you are trying to imply otherwise.

...and with that, I think I'm done with the co-sleeping conversation!

 

[jodifla]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I do not necessarily believe that all these boys in our country that "had to be circed because of infections" really had to be circed. What I mean is that I would like to see statistics on how many boys in countries that do not routine circumcision on boys "have" to circ later on because on infections.

There are many countries that do not circ their boys and if having to have it because of infections was so rampant I think there would be information out there.

Girls have bladder infections all the time and we do not perform surgery on them to "cure" it.

Also routine infant circ also results in complications, infections, mutilation etc.

It's a matter of care on the infections, don't you think? And because we're in a country where most men are circumsized, the proper care isn't passed down from father to son.

 

[chobie]

It's a matter of care on the infections, don't you think? And because we're in a country where most men are circumsized, the proper care isn't passed down from father to son.

Absolutely, so parents who do to choose not to circ have the responsiblity of teaching their sons how to take of it. We have done that and he has had no problems.

 

[NemoMOm]

There's a graphic that accompanies the article, detail how to keep your child safe in a crib. Things like no bumper, no blankets, using a sleep sack, etc.

The principal against co-sleeping is the same. If you don't want blankets in bed with an infant, why would you want two 100-plus pounds adults in there as well? (Not to mention with blankets and pillows in the adult bed, which are no-nos for an infant.)

I tell you I find it odd that you are so against co-sleeping but yet choose to post on this thread.

I don't know the stats for Sweden just that they are big on co-sleeping and have fewer sids. Now China has an 88% rate of co-sleeping and 1% sids

As far as US in 2000 there were 60 infant deaths due to sids of those 19 were in adult beds and of those 13 were due to unknown causes which means no pillows or parents were due to their deaths. That means 41 infants died in their cribs. Which means that co-sleeping has better numbers. and therefore would be that it would be safer for children in an environment that we had discussed earlier.

I think that we will have to agree to disagree. Everyone on this thread has obviously done their research and provide safe envionments for co-sleeping. You will not change anyones mind we have made our commitments and have done so with a well background of thorough research. As you stated in the NON_AP thread you do not believe in AP Parenting, that's ok we are not set out to convince you otherwise, but neither will you convince us that it is unsafe to do what is natural for us. After all putting infants in cribs has only been done for the last 100 yrs or so then it was co-sleeping

 

[NotUrsula]

I'm going to just chime in about that Detroit article. The county in question is Wayne County, which has a sky-high infant mortality rate anyway, about 11%. There are pockets of extreme poverty, and over 41% of children under 18 live in poverty. The number of children in the foster system is also higher than average.

In the US, the majority of rollover smothering cases occur in high-poverty households where the family doesn't even own a crib, and the parents very well may not be sleeping in a real bed, either, but on a sofa or an elderly mattress on the floor. Most really impoverished parents have never heard the phrase "attachment parenting" and probably wouldn't think much of the theory if they had it explained to them -- they sleep together because there is nowhere else to sleep. These are not people who are taking precautions to make sure that the bed is safe for a baby.

FTR, my grandparents on BOTH sides raised nine children each in homes measuring less than 600 sq. ft. Cribs were nearly unheard of among the poor 90 years ago. Among those 18 children there was only one early death; a case of pneumonia contracted at age 3.

SIDS can happen during naps, too. My mother found my brother unresponsive and turning blue when she checked on him during a nap, and she grabbed him and literally RAN out the door and took off for the nearest hospital on foot; it was about a mile away. By the time she got there the doctors could find absolutely nothing wrong with him, but they said that had she not discovered him he almost surely would have been dead within minutes, and ruled it an averted crib death. The only time we slept alone as babies was during naps -- it was sheer luck that she caught him.

 

[DisneyPhD]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I do not necessarily believe that all these boys in our country that "had to be circed because of infections" really had to be circed. What I mean is that I would like to see statistics on how many boys in countries that do not routine circumcision on boys "have" to circ later on because on infections.

There are many countries that do not circ their boys and if having to have it because of infections was so rampant I think there would be information out there.

Girls have bladder infections all the time and we do not perform surgery on them to "cure" it.

Also routine infant circ also results in complications, infections, mutilation etc.

You may be right, or then again maybe not.

I did say IF his mother was still alive (past age 2 years old) he might have not needed it, IF proper hygiene was taught. Being his Aunt I might do a lot of motherly things for him, but once he was potty trained, I stayed out of his bathroom needs. Still it does concern me, as I also said, I have friend with sons who are not circed and they have never had issues.

Now about the Detroit article, what NotUrsula says it true. It sadly also likely other factors might be involved not stated (such as cigarette use around the baby, alcohol or drug use by parents.) It does not say at this time. If you know you are a heavy sleeper, a very big person and toss and turn a lot, don't co sleep. I don't toss and turn, once DH is in place, he stays that way. I spend so many months on my side while pregnant there was no way I would roll over not the baby, besides my tender breasts would have woke me up. I only slept on my side facing the baby. I never planned to co-sleep, I only did it because it was the only way I got any sleep. We didn't every night, or all night, but most of the time she was in bed with us. As it is DD woke every night, every 2 hours for the 1st 14 months of her life. Turns out it was a food allergy, once discovered and taken care of she slept fine (mostly in her own bed.)

 

[jodifla]

I tell you I find it odd that you are so against co-sleeping but yet choose to post on this thread.

I don't know the stats for Sweden just that they are big on co-sleeping and have fewer sids. Now China has an 88% rate of co-sleeping and 1% sids

As far as US in 2000 there were 60 infant deaths due to sids of those 19 were in adult beds and of those 13 were due to unknown causes which means no pillows or parents were due to their deaths. That means 41 infants died in their cribs. Which means that co-sleeping has better numbers. and therefore would be that it would be safer for children in an environment that we had discussed earlier.

I think that we will have to agree to disagree. Everyone on this thread has obviously done their research and provide safe envionments for co-sleeping. You will not change anyones mind we have made our commitments and have done so with a well background of thorough research. As you stated in the NON_AP thread you do not believe in AP Parenting, that's ok we are not set out to convince you otherwise, but neither will you convince us that it is unsafe to do what is natural for us. After all putting infants in cribs has only been done for the last 100 yrs or so then it was co-sleeping

The only reason I came onto the thread is the Detroit News article this morning. It was on topic and in response to everyone here saying how very safe co-sleeping is.

Well, not always. And people who are thinking about it should know all the details.

I imagine we'll hear more in coming days on this out of Detroit.

 

[tonilea]

I'm going to just chime in about that Detroit article. The county in question is Wayne County, which has a sky-high infant mortality rate anyway, about 11%. There are pockets of extreme poverty, and over 41% of children under 18 live in poverty. The number of children in the foster system is also higher than average.

Statistically speaking, those households will also have higher rates of drug and alcohol abuse. Not to mention use of cigarettes. All strong contributors to SIDS.

 

[chobie]

You may be right, or then again maybe not.

I did say IF his mother was still alive (past age 2 years old) he might have not needed it, IF proper hygiene was taught. Being his Aunt I might do a lot of motherly things for him, but once he was potty trained, I stayed out of his bathroom needs. Still it does concern me, as I also said, I have friend with sons who are not circed and they have never had issues.

Well, that's the way it is for most parenting decisions. We may be right and then again maybe not. We educate ourselves and we do what seems best.
What I'm wondering, not about your nephew but rather other boys, is if when they go to the pediatrician with that first or second bladder infection if the doctor educates the parents and child on proper care of an intact member and how to prevent more infections?

 

[jodifla]

Statistically speaking, those households will also have higher rates of drug and alcohol abuse. Not to mention use of cigarettes. All strong contributors to SIDS.

I always thought SIDS was by definition unexplained. So while it could be a factor in the crib deaths, I wouldn't think SIDS would be the cause where the children were sleeping with adults.

Anyway, I'm interested in the subject, so I'll open a new thread, and let the AP folks have theirs back!

 

[tonilea]

I always thought SIDS was by definition unexplained. So while it could be a factor in the crib deaths, I wouldn't think SIDS would be the cause where the children were sleeping with adults.

Anyway, I'm interested in the subject, so I'll open a new thread, and let the AP folks have theirs back!

I wasn't very clear was I. Sorry.

Drug, alcohol or tabacco abuse could all be strong factors in deaths where the children sleep with the parents. One of the cardinal rules of co-sleeping is never co-sleep when you are impaired in any way.... rx drugs, illegal drugs, alcohol, whatever. They also play a big role in SIDS. Possibly explaining the high infant mortality rate in that area.

 

[Ariel8676]

I was just wondering how many of you BF for longer than 1 year??? The WHO now recommends at least 2 years...
My DD is 20 months and we are still nursing 2 times a day.
I just read some of the Non-AP thread ,and while i think everyone is entitiled to their own opinion..the last post said something about BFing a walking toddler in the mall...and was wondering why that is such a problem. No one says anything if a "walking toddler" is drinking from a bottle.
IDK..i really dont want to start a debate, just wondering....really..lol
It funny..up until about a year ago i didn't realize that my parenting stlye had a label...with 3 dd's we just did what felt right for us.

 

[cuppycake]

I was just wondering how many of you BF for longer than 1 year??? The WHO now recommends at least 2 years...
My DD is 20 months and we are still nursing 2 times a day.
I just read some of the Non-AP thread ,and while i think everyone is entitiled to their own opinion..the last post said something about BFing a walking toddler in the mall...and was wondering why that is such a problem. No one says anything if a "walking toddler" is drinking from a bottle.
IDK..i really dont want to start a debate, just wondering....really..lol
It funny..up until about a year ago i didn't realize that my parenting stlye had a label...with 3 dd's we just did what felt right for us.

I'm still BF my 27 month old (she usually only nurses for her nap and bedtime, then once in the wee hours before she really gets up for the day). My friends learned a long time ago not to engage me on the subject because I could spout off all the great reasons for extended BF (including a reduced risk of many cancers for the mother!).

We just don't nurse in public anymore. She's old enough to understand that she has to wait. And, if by chance she really needs to when we're out (fell and bumped her head or something), we'll find a quiet spot, or go to the car, so I can avoid the horrid stares