Open letter to Disney concerning new TSA full body scan.

[pr surfer]

Even if they wanted to
They could not influence this policy

They are wdw
Not airport security

I have to disagree with what I bolded. They can definitely influence. They are the largest lobbying organization in the region, with very deep pockets, and tend to get what they want in legislative issues.

They already lobby quite extensively to bring new airlines and destinations to MCO. They won't likely lobby this one because they don't see a benefit for them to do so.

 

[Lewisc]

I have to disagree with what I bolded. They can definitely influence. They are the largest lobbying organization in the region, with very deep pockets, and tend to get what they want in legislative issues.

They already lobby quite extensively to bring new airlines and destinations to MCO. They won't likely lobby this one because they don't see a benefit for them to do so.

Lobbying against security has no upside for Disney.

Yes, we can debate the effectiviness of the new scanners. Maybe it won't make us safer to the extent claimed by the TSA. Maybe the effect on safety will be minimal. We don't have the information to know.

The headlines will say Disney is against safety. I suspect the number of leisure passengers who feel safer with the new technology far exceeds the very few who won't fly because of the new security.

Too late now but Disney might have been able to lobby MCO. Suggest MCO try to be last on the list. Face it. Disney and MCO want to be in favor of safety. Getting new gadgets makes people feel safer.

Is there really a health issue? Unions representing airline and airport employees are in a position to do something. Also companies employing people being screened multiple times a day.

This isn't flyer talk. Most of us fly a few times a year. The potential health issue is with airport/airline employees who are screened multiple times a day. Maybe even the TSA employee standing near the scanner.

 

[N965VJ]

Lobbying against security has no upside for Disney.

Nobody is lobbying against security, just Security Theatre. There is a very real danger of chasing after questionable technology, while at the same time failing to address the real threats. Are you aware of the ongoing dismal failure rates for the TSA’s Red Team tests at airport checkpoints?

Is there really a health issue?

Yes.

 

[DCTooTall]

The Nude-O-Scopes do not detect explosives, and they are easily defeated by simply placing contraband under folds of flesh or in body cavities. Even the Government Accountability Office stated that a Nude-O-Scope would probably not have caught the underpants bomber.

Only three things are needed:

• X-ray
• Metal detectors
• Explosive trace detection/portals

If you notice, the words I used were "deterrent". I did not say it would be our savior and discover any and all possible means of causing harm on an airplane.

Any detection technology can be defeated. Any amount of security, a hole can be found. As has been said many a time, It is nearly impossible to stop a single crazed zealot who is not afraid to sacrifice themselves in the name of their cause. The same laws and constitution which protect our freedoms, also protect the freedoms of those who wish to do harm, so it's a delicate balancing act between protecting those freedoms and locating those who wish to do us harm. Personally.... i feel the fear and paranoia in this country allowed too much freedom and privacy to be given up in the name of "protecting us", but that is a much larger discussion for another time.



IMHO the name of the game here at the the airport security screening is deterring those who wish to cause harm, and not so much catching them. Some rules are just plain ridiculous (shoes? 3oz of liquid? seriously?? And for that matter... since I smoke I can bring a lighter, but god forbid I want to bring a coke thru to drink while waiting on my flight.), but at the same time, since you may never know exactly what you may end up running into thru security, if you were wanting to blow things up or attack someone, you would need to prepare to get thru anything they may put you thru during the screening process. If you are determined to do it, you can find something that would be able to get thru the system.... but if you prepared to beat anything they could throw at you, your options would be a lot more limited.


And then there is the placebo effect. As was said in Men in Black. A person is smart. People are stupid. It's amazing how many people believe everything they do is making things safer so we won't have to deal with anything ever again. That makes those people more relaxed, and more likely to enjoy their trip or go on one in the first place. So think of these items as a sugar pill. the occasional Sugar Pill isn't necessarily bad for you, but if you take a lot of them it could start to cause problems. For the casual flyer, it's the same thing. The occasional inconvenience or extra tiny dose of radiation isn't gonna be too big an issue.... but for the frequent flyer it could be a much more serious problem.

(Which... that brings us back to knowing your audience. flyertalk members may actually have a much more legitimate reason to gripe about these scanners than those on a board like DIS who may fly 2 or 3 times a year. Disney which may have people fly in once a year for a vacation is going to have less reason to complain for their clientele than frequent flyer groups and/or larger city Chambers of Commerce might because of the impact on their business travelers and frequent flyers.)

 

[DCTooTall]

Nobody is lobbying against security, just Security Theatre. There is a very real danger of chasing after questionable technology, while at the same time failing to address the real threats. Are you aware of the ongoing dismal failure rates for the TSA’s Red Team tests at airport checkpoints?






Yes.

The problem there is if you look at most of this country today, most people don't realize there is a difference between Security and Security Theatre. You would first need to educate the public of the difference, so that they can understand the threat theatre actually presents.

you also need to think about the current news culture in this country. Even if someone goes after trying to convince people that we need to focus on more actual security and less on the methods of the current theatre act, the headlines would be big and blaring about how those people where against xyz method of security. It wouldn't be until deep down in the story you might see the mention that XYZ is shown to be 95% ineffective while more reliable methods are being ignored, but since most people won't get that far into the story and will only see the headline, the damage is already done.

 

[OrangeCountyCommuter]

I have to disagree with what I bolded. They can definitely influence. They are the largest lobbying organization in the region, with very deep pockets, and tend to get what they want in legislative issues.

They already lobby quite extensively to bring new airlines and destinations to MCO. They won't likely lobby this one because they don't see a benefit for them to do so.

Have you contacted YOUR represenatives? Or aare you just assuming that "Disney should take care of me" (Exactly WHY I don't get)

Honestly the "screening machines" are much less scary then the "tone" on this board.

I would rather be "nude o scoped" (and have been several times) then have my children exposed to the prejudice I am seeing here. IMHO that's much more "harmful" over the long term then the "exposure" to the things that posters on here are whining about.

Do the new machines HELP?

If you think ANYTHING the TSA does to protect you helps... there's some nice swampland in Florida you can build houses on I would be glad to sell you!

But perhaps the thing to do is get OFF the DIS and on your email and phone to YOUR elected officals???? Otherwise IMHO you don't have a right to whine (and I routinely complain to mine)

 

[WDWisTheBest]

People are living in another world if they think Disney is going to take on the TSA. People are living in another world if they think posting in internet discussion groups and blogs is going to change anything.

Some people think there is a safety issue. Convince the airlines that their employees, who are scanned multiple times per day, are at risk. Convince the unions who have employees who are being subjected to scans, that they are facing a health risk. Convice the FDA.

Thanks for this common sense post, Lewisc.

 

[pr surfer]

Have you contacted YOUR represenatives? Or aare you just assuming that "Disney should take care of me" (Exactly WHY I don't get)

I complained to my single non-voting representative, as well as my representatives and senators in the local legislature, and to the representatives who routinely will listen to issues from residents of Puerto Rico. Thanks for asking

I don't understand why you chose to quote me though.

 

[Lewisc]

Nobody is lobbying against security, just Security Theatre. There is a very real danger of chasing after questionable technology, while at the same time failing to address the real threats. Are you aware of the ongoing dismal failure rates for the TSA’s Red Team tests at airport checkpoints?


Yes.

The headlines will read something like Disney against safety. Some people won't read the details. Others will wonder what right Disney has second guessing "the experts". Something like Disney wants Mickey Mouse security at the Orlando airport. Absolutely no upside.

Health risk? Complain to the FDA. Unions representing works who are subject to screening multiple times a day should be researching the issue.

The TSA might listen to our elected officials. The TSA isn't about to even consider Mickey Mouse suggestions.

JMO but I think comments suggesting pedophiles are going to have a field day with the scans probably gets the letter in the "nut pile".

There are some people who question if the scans will catch enough "stuff"to be worth the time and money. Other people think the health impact should be subjected to more testing. Might make sense. Questioning the right to scan passengers is a waste of time. The ship has sailed on that issue. We don't have the constitutional right to fly. TSA is legal.

 

[goofy4tink]

The problem there is if you look at most of this country today, most people don't realize there is a difference between Security and Security Theatre. You would first need to educate the public of the difference, so that they can understand the threat theatre actually presents.

you also need to think about the current news culture in this country. Even if someone goes after trying to convince people that we need to focus on more actual security and less on the methods of the current theatre act, the headlines would be big and blaring about how those people where against xyz method of security. It wouldn't be until deep down in the story you might see the mention that XYZ is shown to be 95% ineffective while more reliable methods are being ignored, but since most people won't get that far into the story and will only see the headline, the damage is already done.

You know....this is kinda right. The vast majority of the traveling public believes that the TSA proceedures are keeping them safe. So, they will whine about going through the addlt radiation. But, they will continue saying that it is preventing terroism.
It's pretty much a rock and a hard place. I have no issue, as I already said, with the WBI..nothing much there to see that anyone is going to get excited about. Am I thrilled with yet a bit more radiation for my poor old body?? No, I'm not. But, I really not thrilled with agressive pat downs either. I didn't have an issue with the old ones, the back of the hand. But the new ones, front of the hand, touching, feeling?? Nope, not my cup of tea. As someone has already said...'Not unless you buy me dinner first.'

But hey.....TSA agents protected everyone from my packed birthday cake a few years ago. And there was that roll of forgotten quarters that held up an entire line of travelers. Or my ds's coin collection that I was told to 'back away from' which was in my carryon bag for obvious reasons. Real threats? Nope, not hardly. But I truly think there is some method out there, that is going to be superior to what we have now. All we need is for some legislator to own stocks in the company that has that technololgy....done!!

 

[N965VJ]

It's amazing how many people believe everything they do is making things safer so we won't have to deal with anything ever again.

As you can imagine, I’ve been following the news stories in online media outlets for quite some. One interesting thing that is very apparent within the last few years is how the tide of public opinion has turned against the TSA. On any given story, the comments that carry the anything that makes us feel safe, 9/11 changed everything, better safe than sorry, etc. have now dwindled to the single percentage.

You would first need to educate the public of the difference, so that they can understand the threat theatre actually presents.

That's what we are trying to do.

Something like Disney wants Mickey Mouse security at the Orlando airport.

Too obvious to say that’s what we have now, and it’s unfair to Mickey. However, we do have screening clerks dressed up in policeman’s costumes doing a very bad display of theatre.

 

[N965VJ]

But, I really not thrilled with agressive pat downs either. I didn't have an issue with the old ones, the back of the hand. But the new ones, front of the hand, touching, feeling?? Nope, not my cup of tea.

More on those in a CNN report that was published a few hours ago:

Rosemary Fitzpatrick, a CNN employee, said she was subjected to a pat-down at the Orlando, Florida, airport on Wednesday night after her underwire bra set off a magnetometer. She said she was taken to a private area and searched, with transportation screening officers telling her the pat-down was a new procedure.

According to Fitzpatrick, a female screener ran her hands around her breasts, over her stomach, buttocks and her inner thighs, and briefly touched her crotch.

"I felt helpless, I felt violated, and I felt humiliated," Fitzpatrick said, adding that she was reduced to tears at the checkpoint. She particularly objected to the fact that travelers were not warned about the new procedures.

"I am appalled and disgusted at the new search procedures and the fact that passengers have not been made aware of the new invasive steps prior to entering the security area," Fitzpatrick wrote. "It appears once you enter the security area, passengers forfeit their rights. There were no signs, video information, etc. at the entrance of the security area the airport. Why?"

She added: "As an experienced traveler for work who was in tears for most of the search process, I have never experienced a more traumatic and invasive travel event!"

 

[dreweyj]

Wow, this thread is like one big debate. While I am not a proponent of huge government intervention, at least they are trying to solve a problem (which is more than they would normally do under other circumstances). I would have thought everyone wouldn't be up in arms about those solutions which are being implemented but rather would be upset at those isolutions which do not yet exist.

I don't mean to make anyone paranoid, but one example I'm talking about has to do with tolietries. Specifically, most of the toiletries you can buy in a store have no protective packaging. Shampoo lids or lotion lids can be unscrewed and foreign substances can easily be added as their is usually no seal on the bottle. Plus much of those products are shipped from overseas. It would be so easy for a would-be terrorist to add acids, anthrax, or arsenic either at the factory, the warehouse, or in a store to these products.

Think about that next time you run out of shampoo...

 

[CPT Tripss]

snip

The TSA isn't about to even consider Mickey Mouse suggestions.

snip

Well . . . maybe they will listen to Mickey's corporate "daddy.".

The Communication of a Shared Vision
COURSE TSA-LEAD-COMMSHARDVISN-SKSFT
Description: "If you can dream it, you can do it." Walt Disney's words ring as true today as they did many years ago when they were first displayed above the Epcot Center. The importance of a vision cannot be denied. Neither can the importance of communicating that vision to the people responsible for supporting it. Communicating your vision gives purpose and meaning to the work that people do, and pursuing and accomplishing that vision with a sense of integrity builds trust in you as an individual and as a leader. This course will teach you how to communicate a shared vision and get action on that vision across all sectors of your working environment.

http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/creativity_and_innovation_courses.pdf

I recall reports of TSA seeking advice from Disney on how to set up the search stations and also aborted attempts to get Disney customer service training.

 

[N965VJ]

I don't mean to make anyone paranoid, but one example I'm talking about has to do with tolietries. Specifically, most of the toiletries you can buy in a store have no protective packaging. Shampoo lids or lotion lids can be unscrewed and foreign substances can easily be added as their is usually no seal on the bottle. Plus much of those products are shipped from overseas. It would be so easy for a would-be terrorist to add acids, anthrax, or arsenic either at the factory, the warehouse, or in a store to these products.

One could spend a lot of time trying to dream up Boogeyman scenarios, but in the end they will mostly turn out to be like fantasy tales of poison hiding in Halloween candy.

 

[SDSorority]

WOW that's a crazy letter.

I gotta say... I DO NOT like the body scanners and will opt for a pat-down every time. That said, if I want to go to Disney bad enough and I don't want to fly, I will drive. I know others are out of the country our way farther away than our 23 hour drive, but if I have to, I'll do it. The body scanners would not prevent me from going, but if they become mandatory, then the car it shall be.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Wow, this thread is like one big debate. While I am not a proponent of huge government intervention, at least they are trying to solve a problem (which is more than they would normally do under other circumstances). I would have thought everyone wouldn't be up in arms about those solutions which are being implemented but rather would be upset at those isolutions which do not yet exist.I don't mean to make anyone paranoid, but one example I'm talking about has to do with tolietries. Specifically, most of the toiletries you can buy in a store have no protective packaging. Shampoo lids or lotion lids can be unscrewed and foreign substances can easily be added as their is usually no seal on the bottle. Plus much of those products are shipped from overseas. It would be so easy for a would-be terrorist to add acids, anthrax, or arsenic either at the factory, the warehouse, or in a store to these products.

Think about that next time you run out of shampoo...

Heck, even the TSA/DHS IG is "up in arms." Still unscreened freight getting onto passenger planes. And, TSA missed a statutory deadline.

So, while we get a "virtual" strip search, radiated and groped, unscreened freight is getting loader next to our luggage. Yeah, that's keeping us safe . . .

The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) took two significant hits Thursday--one over its air cargo security procedures, another over transit security grants.

The inspector general (IG) at the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) delivered its criticism first--TSA faces gaps in its air cargo screening procedures that could allow terrorists to smuggle explosives or other dangerous substance onto passenger aircraft.

"We identified vulnerabilities in the cargo screening procedures employed by air carriers and cargo screening facilities to detect and prevent explosives from being shipped in air cargo transported on passenger aircraft," the DHS IG said in its report, Evaluation of Screening of Air Cargo Transported on Passenger Aircraft.

 

[padawans]

WOW that's a crazy letter.

I gotta say... I DO NOT like the body scanners and will opt for a pat-down every time. That said, if I want to go to Disney bad enough and I don't want to fly, I will drive. I know others are out of the country our way farther away than our 23 hour drive, but if I have to, I'll do it. The body scanners would not prevent me from going, but if they become mandatory, then the car it shall be.

Tsa scans will be changed to front of hand and they will be allowed to touch areas that they have not previously been allowed to touch. I'm sure you get the picture. This is to make it so unconfortable you will agree to the scanning. This may be our last trip. I don't wan't to subject my kids to frequent radiation or have them be touched in areas I've taught them no one is allowed to touch. I could care less about the radiation for myself, but I thought I could have my kids patted down. Oh well I'm glad I live close to Disneyland and the beach.

 

[famsen]

I don't like the scanners because I don't know if there is enough information about what type of radiation we are being exposed to every time we go through one.
I guess I don't care about being felt up. I'm wearing clothes. The agents are wearing gloves. I'm not getting a thrill out of it.
If they are, then they are just gross.

 

[N965VJ]

Tsa scans will be changed to front of hand and they will be allowed to touch areas that they have not previously been allowed to touch. I'm sure you get the picture. This is to make it so unconfortable you will agree to the scanning.

Not opting out of the Nude-O-Scopes is no guarantee of not being on the receiving end of the new grope procedure, as this will be used to resolve any anomalies in the Nude-O-Scope. Also, as of today, it seems hand held metal detectors will no longer be used in lieu of groping, even to resolve an alarm with the walk through metal detector.