Once again, a school, a shooter....and we do the drill yet again.....

[Minnesota!]

During the assault weapon ban (1994-2004), mass shooting deaths were an average of 4.8/year.

2005-2017 they were 23.8/year. Let's not pretend it didn't work.

And if you truly think that healthcare is the issue, I surely hope you are fighting for the same universal healthcare coverage every other country has. You know, the countries where children do not have to practice active shooter drills.

If you don't, then you either don't care that children or dying or you really don't think that that is the issue.

4 out of 5 of my kids are in school. My youngest starts next year. My second oldest had a classmate suspended because he threatened to bring a gun in. That was last year when she was in 5th grade.

I'm tired of this. I'm tired of thoughts and prayers. I'm tired of "it's not the guns! it's the healthcare!" And then no one does anything about either.

You don't believe it's because of how easy it is to get a gun? Fine. Let's try universal healthcare coverage first. If that doesn't work then the weapons ban. I'm sick of these arguments that lead absolutely no where.

Unfortunately it also escalated the isolation issue for many. And we're starting to see the high price being paid educationally, which could reverberate for many years.

I get that, but those things can be reversed. My kid being shot can't. It was a nice break from that stress. And, my kids did very well with it, and have not had issues, so I have not struggled with the other side, that I know other people have.

I have said for years, someone going into the profession of therapy, counseling, etc. will be set with a job forever thanks to the environment we all live in..

I sometimes feel the same way, that I'm afraid for my kids to be at school, but then I think about all the other places they could just as easily get shot.
Movie theater, grocery store, church, walmart, hospital/medical office, walking or running along the greenway, concert, baggage claim area of airport, shopping mall, food court, sporting event, and on and on and on. Really at least the schools have drills and try to prepare the best they can, some of the other venues almost seem like more likely or more dangerous targets. Anyway, that's how I rationalize that it's okay to go to school, because there are so many other places to get shot, why should I assume it will be at school.

Yeah, I am always looking over my shoulder at those places, too, and do not go to theaters to see movies anymore, anyway (not just the shootings...which, yes, just this summer happened at my local theater, too). To be fair, I have always been a person who is leery of "the general public" so this doesn't just come from the horrible acts we have noticed an uptick in over the years, but it surely doesn't help. I always scope out exits, hiding spots, etc. when we go somewhere. Gotta love an anxious mind!

I can't imagine being so scared of my kids going to school that I didn't mind a mandatory lockdown. Has there ever been a shooting at your school? Or, in a neighboring school? I'm just trying to understand what circumstances have caused you to want your child to be locked down vs in school. It is a sad situation now in our country.

Yes, there has....to all the questions. No shootings in 2020, or when I kept my kids home into 2021, but I believe there were 4 or 5 lockdowns at school since the Covid lockdowns ended, all for gun issues. There were 2, I think, before Covid, when my older son started his sophomore year there. There were less lockdowns at the inner city high school, in the thick of a rough, rough, rough neighborhood where my oldest went for freshman year, than there have been at the suburban, sweet little neighborhood school they have attended for the last few years. End of school year last year involved the school going on lockdown, and cops and dogs swarming all the classrooms and then dragging out a few kids who had loaded guns on them.

The lockdown of schools did not affect MY HOUSEHOLD in any negative ways, at all. It was good for all of us to get that time together, we learned how to learn AND teach differently, I got time to really spend with my kids, they got a hot, leisurely breakfast, nutritious lunch, no rushing out the door, and nobody having to do any lockdown drills - whether for practice or for real!

I know a lot of people did not get the same experience I did - whether because of parents that had to work outside the home, learning styles clashing, or no safe home to learn in.

All I am saying is, for my kids, my anxiety, my situation....yep, my kids being home on lockdown did not affect any of us negatively. And, I would love to have that same security each day. If my kid asked to go back to virtual learning (which we offer, 100% for anyone who wants it), I would allow it in a heartbeat.

I guess I find it weird if parents DON'T think it can happen where their kids are each day - maybe not dwell on it, but know that it is a possibility and not try and do everything they can to prevent it...

 

[mrodgers]

"bullet proof" is typed this way because I know my bag would not stop a semi automatic barrage, or anything bigger than a handgun, and it only covers my torso.

Since we're going this route with the thread, as I expected (the narrative already was mentioned prior to your post...) Just want to let you know that by saying "semi automatic" scary words, that includes the majority of handguns that you also mention as an exception.

For those mentioning the obvious solution, your obvious solution in penalizing me and those who don't do these things isn't going to solve anything.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

For those mentioning the obvious solution, your obvious solution in penalizing me and those who don't do these things isn't going to solve anything.

Does eliminating the gun show background check loophole penalize you?

 

[sam_gordon]

Once the student gets put on the list, services start that can identify the situation, including bullying.


They happened, just not reported so quickly and efficiently. We have the internet now, didn't have it a few decades ago. We also have guns that don't take so long to load and reload and that can fire a barrage of bullets in a few seconds, compared to guns 150 years ago.

Here's a list of gun violence in schools:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_(before_2000)

Wow. I didn't realize there were so many.

# of incidents by decade (taken from Wiki)
1840s: 1
1850s: 3
1860s: 5
1870s: 7
1880s: 10
1890s: 6
1900s: 13
1910s: 18
1920s: 10
1930s: 7
1940s: 8
1950s: 19
1960s: 20
1970s: 40
1980s: 61
1990s: 97
2000s: 68
2010s: 231
2020s: 89

 

[Minnesota!]

COVID worsened mental illness...many social issues and drug problems IT only created more potential for the instances IMO

There are trends in our Country that I don't like but NOPE it doesn't SUCK. I can think of many worse places to live.

Obviously there are worse places to live.

But, there are far, far, far better places to live. For a country that always screams "we are #1", I wonder if we should start asterisking that with "in not great things". Cuz, yes, this country sucks at so many things...

I can answer this question - yes, there has been a shooting in a neighboring school. April 20, 1999, two shooters entered a school near my school. The school was Columbine HS. Maybe you've heard of it.

One of the teachers I taught with for several years was a senior and in the library that day. You could ask her her feelings as well. A good family friend was a teacher at Columbine. He ate lunch with Dave Sanders every day, except April 20,1999. He decided to take the day off and go to the mountains with family that was in town. Ask him about the survivor's guilt.

Let's face it, the lockdown was horrible but necessary. We did return to in-person August 2020 with the option of online or in-person. Over 50% of our parents chose online because they saw what COVID did to their families as well as our community.

As a retired teacher, I see what COVID did to students from losing a parent, both parents, other family members, as well as losing time in school. But I also have seen the results of what happens when a school shooting hits a community. Both are sad situations.

I did not know how to react to your post. I just wanted to acknowledge it and send you peace.

Then from whom are the children learning....or NOT learning....values?

Kardashians, politicians that their parents worship (on all sides of the aisle), etc. Social media and "influencers" have been a major downfall of this country.

I suspect the reason people are "disparaging" thoughts and prayers is that at the end of the day, T&P do nothing to stop what is happening. In my mind, it is similar to someone being diagnosed with cancer and relying on the power of positive thought to get rid of it. And I say that as someone who was diagnosed with cancer and who definitely did not rely on positive thoughts alone to cure me.

If prayer helps you then by all means, go for it! But we should not be under the illusion that it is a solution to the problem in any way.

T&P drives me bananas. Like you said, positive thoughts are great and all, but the medicine to heal is not in T&P - it is in the actions you take. Chemo for cancer, aspirin for headaches, smart legislation for guns.

 

[Southernmiss]

It's come out that the gun was taken for safety concerns from the shooters home on October 12th.

They're looking into how he got it back.

 

[Dan Murphy]

Are there people here who have done something to take action between this shooting and the last?

Not bereeen this current shooting and last, but yes, between this current shooting and today. I early voted on Tuesday.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

Are there people here who have done something to take action between this shooting and the last?

Not bereeen this current shooting and last, but yes, between this current shooting and today. I early voted on Tuesday.

Same.

 

[mrodgers]

Does eliminating the gun show background check loophole penalize you?

You mean how I go to a gun show and try to purchase a gun from a dealer at the show, which I have to fill out form 4473, or otherwise known as the background check. That loophole?

There's only one way to change what everyone wants to change, with 2/3's majority because any and every law you come up with for guns is an infringement. Why one wants to state they think the Constitution should be regulated down to no more good use than under your glass of iced tea to catch the condensation dripping off of it is beyond me. It's a dang good document and I think we should keep it and keep the 2 most important aspects of it.

 

[sam_gordon]

any and every law you come up with for guns is an infringement.

But there are already laws limiting "arms" (2nd amendment doesn't say "guns"). Why aren't those an infringement?

In case someone is thinking "wait, weren't you arguing for allowing guns", actually what I was arguing was going after guns isn't the silver bullet (pun not intended) to solve the problem. I think there can be reasonable limits reached that MIGHT help, but other factors need to be looked at also.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

You mean how I go to a gun show and try to purchase a gun from a dealer at the show, which I have to fill out form 4473, or otherwise known as the background check. That loophole?

\Federal law requires background checks for firearm purchases from FFLs in all states. If you’re buying a new or used gun from a retail gun store, you’ll fill out an ATF Form 4473.

What’s not uniform across the country are the laws regarding firearm sales between private parties. Be it at a gun show, or elsewhere, most states don’t require a NICS check for sales between private citizens who aren’t federally licensed firearm dealers.

So, if that loophole is closed, does that penalize you?

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

But there are already laws limiting "arms" (2nd amendment doesn't say "guns"). Why aren't those an infringement?

For real, 2A says 'arms' not guns. I can't own a grenade launcher, but that counts as 'arms.' It's well established that there is a limit to 2A because 'arms' are already limited. The only question is where exactly should that limit be? Maybe any 'arms' that were available during the writing of 2A shouldn't be limited, but everything else could be game?

 

[sam_gordon]

For real, 2A says 'arms' not guns. I can't own a grenade launcher, but that counts as 'arms.' It's well established that there is a limit to 2A because 'arms' are already limited. The only question is where exactly should that limit be? Maybe any 'arms' that were available during the writing of 2A shouldn't be limited, but everything else could be game?

Totally agree. People (like @mrodgers ) who claim "any law against guns is an infringement" is ignoring there already ARE limits to the 2A, that they apparently don't(?) have problems with.

 

[TAX GUY]

\Federal law requires background checks for firearm purchases from FFLs in all states. If you’re buying a new or used gun from a retail gun store, you’ll fill out an ATF Form 4473.

What’s not uniform across the country are the laws regarding firearm sales between private parties. Be it at a gun show, or elsewhere, most states don’t require a NICS check for sales between private citizens who aren’t federally licensed firearm dealers.

So, if that loophole is closed, does that penalize you?

Curious if you've ever purchased a gun, at a dealer, gun show or private party? Only asking because where I am, you need a valid LTC (with proper class/endorsement) to legally buy a firearm ammo or even pepper spray (taser too). Each LTC is provided a PIN that the seller MUST include as well as the buyers PIN (if the transaction is being completed on line).

I always have to ask this when there's a mention of "gun show loopholes" because no such loophole exists where I live. Now, if such a thing exists in other states, I'll refer back to my previous comment in that UNIVERSAL laws should be in place, just like a drivers license is universal, so should an LTC.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

Curious if you've ever purchased a gun, at a dealer, gun show or private party? Only asking because where I am, you need a valid LTC (with proper class/endorsement) to legally buy a firearm ammo or even pepper spray (taser too). Each LTC is provided a PIN that the seller MUST include as well as the buyers PIN (if the transaction is being completed on line).

I always have to ask this when there's a mention of "gun show loopholes" because no such loophole exists where I live. Now, if such a thing exists in other states, I'll refer back to my previous comment in that UNIVERSAL laws should be in place, just like a drivers license is universal, so should an LTC.

The states that have universal background check laws are California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Maryland, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, and D.C. Maybe you are in one of those states? I'm not.

 

[TAX GUY]

Totally agree. People (like @mrodgers ) who claim "any law against guns is an infringement" is ignoring there already ARE limits to the 2A, that they apparently don't(?) have problems with.

Believe me, many DO have problems with those restrictions already. What you're hearing is the argument to not add MORE to what's already out there. It's been said before and it'll be said again, laws will keep the honest and safe owners in check. Those looking to commit crimes (armed or not) will find ways to get them. Even when safe gun owners properly lock and store their guns, they still get stolen. Can't blame just the homeowners either, a few years ago a local National Guard Armory was broken into and LOTS of firearms went missing. Criminals don't follow or obey laws.

 

[TAX GUY]

The states that have universal background check laws are California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Maryland, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, and D.C. Maybe you are in one of those states? I'm not.

I am in one of those states, yes, which is why I keep saying, universal from the Pacific to the Atlantic and Canada to Mexico and all points in between.

 

[Dan Murphy]

Wow. I didn't realize there were so many.

# of incidents by decade (taken from Wiki)
1840s: 1
1850s: 3
1860s: 5
1870s: 7
1880s: 10
1890s: 6
1900s: 13
1910s: 18
1920s: 10
1930s: 7
1940s: 8
1950s: 19
1960s: 20
1970s: 40
1980s: 61
1990s: 97
2000s: 68
2010s: 231
2020s: 89

At that rate, the 2020's will come in somewhat over 300, assuming no increase in the current rate of over 30 per year.

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

I am in one of those states, yes, which is why I keep saying, universal from the Pacific to the Atlantic and Canada to Mexico and all points in between.

A majority of Americans agree with you, including me. Which is why I don't see why we can't at least get that little bit of legislation done. Will it prevent all mass shootings? No, of course not. There is no one single thing that is going to solve the issue, but we can't even take little steps that most agree on like universal background checks to help.

 

[kdonnel]

A majority of Americans agree with you, including me. Which is why I don't see why we can't at least get that little bit of legislation done. Will it prevent all mass shootings? No, of course not. There is no one single thing that is going to solve the issue, but we can't even take little steps that most agree on like universal background checks to help.

I think it is wishful thinking that mass shootings would be reduced with that legislation. It is feel good legislation at best.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/16/us/politics/legal-gun-purchase-mass-shooting.html

From 1966 to 2019, 77 percent of mass shooters obtained the weapons they used in their crimes through legal purchases, according to a comprehensive survey of law enforcement data, academic papers and news accounts compiled by the National Institute of Justice, the research wing of the Justice Department.

77% will continue to follow the law up until the point they kill and 23% will continue to break the law up until the point they kill.