Older Studios Changing from 4 to 5 People

[HookdonWDW]

This thread is not about whether people want 4 or 5 people in a studio. If you want to debate/post about that, I respectfully ask that you open a separate thread.

My question is this: When we purchased at VWL and BCV, our contracts stated that only 4 people were allowed in a studio. How can the policy be changed to 5 people, which required capital expenditure on daybeds (which increases dues expenses) and wear and tear without being considered a substantial change to the contract we signed with DVD?

 

[LauraLea]

This is my question too. To make this change our maintenance fees were used to buy those ugly bed/table setups, which DVD is now using as a marketing ploy. Slick move to use our $$$ to increase their sales. It also left fewer dollars to do the refurb properly (poor paint jobs).

I would like to see the data that said we as VWL, BCV and BWV owners wanted this change. Granted, potential buyers were saying they wanted this, but not those of us that already put the money out to buy and maintain the resorts as they were designed.

Laura

 

[drusba]

I am not sure the documents ever actually said that 4 was all that was allowed. What I think they said is the the room had sleeping capacity for four plus a fifth under three. At BWV, even from early on, they said the dedicated studios had a daybed and thus you could sleep five in it (today that daybed does not even exist in many of the dedicated studios and getting a dedicated is no longer a guaranteed booking category).

Moreover, as far back as I can remember, and that includes the latter part of the 1990's as a DVC member, Disney has been bending any policy to limit the occupancy to four.

Though I agree that five is too many for a studio, I doubt you can actually win an argument that your documents limited occupancy to four in a studio. Adding a murphy bed to the studio or a sleeper chair to 1BR is something that the odd family out, the one with parents and three kids, always had a problem with even when deciding to purchase DVC because the applicable sleeping arrangements usually meant those families had to opt for a two bedroom and likely many of them prefer the new arrangements.

 

[Breyean]

These are good points. Changing from 4 to 5 in a studio may help sales, but it might also make actually getting a studio even more difficult. It's pretty safe to say studios tend to go faster than 1 bedrooms at most resorts at most times of the year. A lot fewer points, and you can sleep as many in either, losing out on the kitchen and washer/dryer in the studio.

Now, some studios seem to have more appeal than ever. Two showers in VGF in the studio - one in the 1 bedroom - comes to mind.

Too bad DVC couldn't find a way to spread the demand more evenly between studios and 1 bedrooms, but I guess that sales idea mentioned trumps all.

 

[supersnoop]

This thread is not about whether people want 4 or 5 people in a studio. If you want to debate/post about that, I respectfully ask that you open a separate thread. My question is this: When we purchased at VWL and BCV, our contracts stated that only 4 people were allowed in a studio. How can the policy be changed to 5 people, which required capital expenditure on daybeds (which increases dues expenses) and wear and tear without being considered a substantial change to the contract we signed with DVD?

Can you post a copy of a contract that limited to studios to four people? I'm curious if that was a legal document or a marketing brochure.

 

[bookwormde]

This thread is not about whether people want 4 or 5 people in a studio. If you want to debate/post about that, I respectfully ask that you open a separate thread.

My question is this: When we purchased at VWL and BCV, our contracts stated that only 4 people were allowed in a studio. How can the policy be changed to 5 people, which required capital expenditure on daybeds (which increases dues expenses) and wear and tear without being considered a substantial change to the contract we signed with DVD?

If you look at FL timeshare law and regulation there are a few things that are "locked" but the document most people look at is at the point of sale, so it is just what exists at the time of sale. Beyond that FL law allows a lot of latitude as long as what is done "benefits the majority of owners"

 

[HookdonWDW]

Can you post a copy of a contract that limited to studios to four people? I'm curious if that was a legal document or a marketing brochure.

The easiest place to quickly find it is in the multi-site public offering statement, page 35:

Wilderness Lodge Resort
Studios
Number: 20
Bedrooms: 1
Bathrooms: 1
Sleep Capacity: 4
Full Kitchen: No
Under Counter Refrigerator, wet sink, microwave oven

Beach Club Villas
Studios
Number: 22
Bedrooms: 1
Bathrooms: 1
Sleep Capacity: 4
Full Kitchen: No
Under Counter Refrigerator, wet sink, microwave oven

Not providing bedding for a fifth occupant in a studio allowed DVC to get around this, but providing daybeds, and passing on the costs of the beds, and bedding to the owners seems like a substantial change to the contract.

I don't see that stating that it's what "most people want" makes it okay. It's contractual, and people are incurring real expenses without their consent. It seems that it would be on par with charging OKW owners who didn't extend past 2042 for long-term capital repairs in 2040 because it would benefit most owners...

 

[DVCTigger]

Too bad DVC couldn't find a way to spread the demand more evenly between studios and 1 bedrooms, but I guess that sales idea mentioned trumps all.

I know I'll get flamed for this, but they could take points from the one bedrooms and make the studios higher. That would even out the demand. I know I would be more willing to spend a few more points for a 1BR, but we usually go with a studio because of the almost double points for a 1BR.

 

[LauraLea]

I know I'll get flamed for this, but they could take points from the one bedrooms and make the studios higher. That would even out the demand. I know I would be more willing to spend a few more points for a 1BR, but we usually go with a studio because of the almost double points for a 1BR.

I am afraid they are going to have to do this at the older resorts, making this change a double whammy to those of us that liked what we bought.

Laura

 

[HookdonWDW]

I know I'll get flamed for this, but they could take points from the one bedrooms and make the studios higher. That would even out the demand. I know I would be more willing to spend a few more points for a 1BR, but we usually go with a studio because of the almost double points for a 1BR.

That might actually make sense in a couple of ways. Since after the change you will be able to sleep more people in a studio than a one bedroom, raising the number of points for a studio stay could help to offset the costs to owners...

 

[OKW Lover]

The "owners" actually have vey little to say about this. When you bought DVC you gave DVD (Disney Vacation Development) the right to vote in your interest. So, all DVC needs is for DVD to approve the change.

 

[beer dave]

That might actually make sense in a couple of ways. Since after the change you will be able to sleep more people in a studio than a one bedroom, raising the number of points for a studio stay could help to offset the costs to owners...

All they have to do is add the sleeper chair to the one bedroom and it is equal to the studio again. And the two bedroom lock off could go up to 10....

 

[DebbieB]

All they have to do is add the sleeper chair to the one bedroom and it is equal to the studio again. And the two bedroom lock off could go up to 10....

I really don't think there is room for a sleeper chair at the older DVC's (except OKW). With the queen sofabed pulled out, there isn't room. Plus because a queen is longer, I don't think there is room for the fold down under the TV in a 1 bedroom.

I have the Product Understanding Checklist from my BWV 1999 purchase. It reads: Occupancy in DVC Resort Vacation Homes is limited to 4 persons in a studio or 1 bedroom, 8 persons in a 2 bedroom, and 12 persons in a 3 bedroom Grand Villa.

The Product Understanding Checklist is separate from the Purchase Agreement. So I don't know how binding it is for DVC to be able to change the "product" at will.

 

[Minniesgal]

All they have to do is add the sleeper chair to the one bedroom and it is equal to the studio again. And the two bedroom lock off could go up to 10....

I think a sleeper chair in a 1 bedroom has the potential to be a fire hazard as it risks blocking the door to the king bedroom. Different in the studio where you don't open the adjoining door to get out.

 

[MulanMom]

I was crazy enough to read the purchasing agreement (or public offering statement?) in detail back in 1991. We actually did not buy in because legally, all the cards were in DVD and DVC's hands. We finally did buy in 1993 after we saw how DVC made some adjustments/changes that benefitted the buyers/DVC members. I could be wrong, but I doubt DVD and DVC would take an action without making sure all their bases were covered legally.

 

[beer dave]

I think a sleeper chair in a 1 bedroom has the potential to be a fire hazard as it risks blocking the door to the king bedroom. Different in the studio where you don't open the adjoining door to get out.

I guess I displayed my lack of spending any time in a studio.... lol.

The only studios I have ever been in were attached to my 2 bed-- and the kids stay in there, so I have probably entered the rooms a couple of times....

 

[Simba's Mom]

The easiest place to quickly find it is in the multi-site public offering statement, page 35:

Wilderness Lodge Resort
Studios
Number: 20
Bedrooms: 1
Bathrooms: 1
Sleep Capacity: 4
Full Kitchen: No
Under Counter Refrigerator, wet sink, microwave oven

Beach Club Villas
Studios
Number: 22
Bedrooms: 1
Bathrooms: 1
Sleep Capacity: 4
Full Kitchen: No
Under Counter Refrigerator, wet sink, microwave oven

Well, I find this whole situation that people have brought up interesting. And regarding the DVD making decisions instead of members voting, I didn't know that (no one to blame, though, but ourselves). Perhaps that's why, many years ago, when they built a new pool slide at OKW, they first polled the members at OKW, who voted against it. "But we do have a pool slide", you say. Yes, and I remember in 2003, when they announced it at an annual meeting, many members were QUITE upset. I guess DVD wanted it, so DVC got it. I wish they hadn't bothered with polling the members, made it look like their wants mattered, when in the end they didn't. Back to studio capacity-I wonder if they'll have to give everyone new documents now, with the change.

 

[HookdonWDW]

Well, I find this whole situation that people have brought up interesting. And regarding the DVD making decisions instead of members voting, I didn't know that (no one to blame, though, but ourselves). Perhaps that's why, many years ago, when they built a new pool slide at OKW, they first polled the members at OKW, who voted against it. "But we do have a pool slide", you say. Yes, and I remember in 2003, when they announced it at an annual meeting, many members were QUITE upset. I guess DVD wanted it, so DVC got it. I wish they hadn't bothered with polling the members, made it look like their wants mattered, when in the end they didn't. Back to studio capacity-I wonder if they'll have to give everyone new documents now, with the change.

The Old Key West poolslide is actually one of the things that came to mind.When DVD decided to go ahead and build the features without Members being in favor, they made a point of saying that Members weren't paying for the pool, just for maintenance and lifeguards which would be needed in the future. In this case it looks like existing Members are being charged to add sleeping for a fifth person. This wasn't provided for or allotted as a potential expense in the contract. Following the same rationale, it would seem that DVD should be responsible for the initial investment and could possibly charge members for maintenance costs.

 

[OKW Lover]

I'm thinking that the list of items in the offering statement is a minimum requirement, not necessarily a "not to exceed" point.

 

[LisaS]

All they have to do is add the sleeper chair to the one bedroom and it is equal to the studio again. And the two bedroom lock off could go up to 10....

There isn't enough room at either VWL or BWV to add either a sleeper chair or a drop-down bed to the 1BRs. Take a look at the 1BR's living area in this floor plan for a BWV 2BR (from DVCrequest's website). The connecting door in the BWV and VWL 1BRs is at the far end of the living area so there isn't enough wall space across from the sleeper sofa for a drop-down bed. I don't think they can add a sleeper chair either because it would block the connecting door.

If you look at the studio side, you can see why we're ending up with that camper-style bolt-on table because the new drop down bed will take up all of the space currently occupied by the dresser/TV stand and the original table.

So for BWV and VWL, I don't see how they could add an additional bed into the living area. They could potentially replace the current chair in the bedroom with a sleeper chair or just say that the king bed sleeps three. The way things are going with DVC, I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to do that.