Official Thread - New commercial use policy published 03/31

[muppets3d]

I am not familiar with Wyndham much but I believe the crackdown started in March 2021, as the pandemic was ending?

It's not like it was a panacea for TNL's (the parent company, that includes multiple businesses) woes... since March 2021 the stock first dropped by 50% and then it took another 2+ years to get back to where it was in 2021. Overall, it's up about 10% in 5 years...

We don't see DVC financials separately, but if an extreme public crackdown drops the company value by 50%, is it a good idea?

I can't imagine a scenario in which something could possibly happen to DVC that would devalue TWDC by 50%.

 

[Girlstar30]

I personally wish that warnings would have been sent out already to people who are obvious commercial renters that have broken a majority of their guidelines. Now maybe since they shluld have posted these guidelines a while ago, theyre giving it a little bit of time, but i also bet the majority of owners dont even read these updwtes or know about them. If they would actually do something, even just send a warning, it sends a message without them actually doing anything drastic.

The fact that they havent even sent anyone a warning does make me think maybe this is just a scare tactic and they cant really do much legally. But if its just a scare tactic it will never end because people will know its been x amount of years and no action.

Im assuming these super big people do have tons of $$ and can possibly attempt to challenge Disney. And yes Disney has the best lawyers etc. But they have been challenged by owners before, they dont win everything. And I don't think they want to come down on regular owners so that probably adds to the dilemma of how to handle this, them hoping these new policies will scare people. And I think they may for a little while until they test the waters and nothing happens... again. But it does seem like Disney is getting more serious and thats something to watch and see.

I was at a board meeting where the commercial renters came up and where they said they have hired people to work on it.

 

[muppets3d]

I actually don't think that that particular person is on anyone's radar, based on the small number of points. My comment was a more generalized response to the somewhat myopic reliance on the "20 reservation rule".

The larger question will be what happens after the large institutional owners are out of the system.

Will DVC be satisfied or will they go after smaller fish.

I'd actually be more worried once the DVC Rental Store is out of business if I routinely rented out my points as a small owner, than I would be now.

 

[DonMacGregor]

To stir the pot a little over my second cup of coffee this morning, the language in the "new" rules that I find most interesting from a spectator's standpoint is this (emphasis added):

• Regular advertising by an Owner, Associate, or someone else at the direction of an Owner (such as an employee, principal, officer, director, contractor, or agent acting on behalf of an Owner; collectively
  "Owner Agent") of the availability of Vacation Ownership Interests and/or Vacation Homes for rental, including but not limited to use of a dedicated website, social media account, page, post, third-party service provider, or on any other media or platform now known or hereafter devised;

I'm curious how the major rental brokers will rationalize around that one.

"Regular", not frequent or repeated.
"A dedicated website" as in a rental brokers website?
"Third-party service provider" as in a "third-party intermediary"?
"Or on any other media or platform now known or hereafter devised" which sounds like it includes tear-off flyers stapled to a telephone pole or messages written on a bathroom stall.

I just don't see how you can argue (or try to rationalize) that that specific language is not targeted right at online brokers.

 

[Cyberc1978]

The larger question will be what happens after the large institutional owners are out of the system.

Will DVC be satisfied or will they go after smaller fish.

I'd actually be more worried once the DVC Rental Store is out of business if I routinely rented out my points as a small owner, than I would be now.

Is the mouse known for leaving money on the table?

 

[DonMacGregor]

I personally wish that warnings would have been sent out already to people who are obvious commercial renters that have broken a majority of their guidelines. Now maybe since they shluld have posted these guidelines a while ago, theyre giving it a little bit of time, but i also bet the majority of owners dont even read these updwtes or know about them. If they would actually do something, even just send a warning, it sends a message without them actually doing anything drastic.

The fact that they havent even sent anyone a warning does make me think maybe this is just a scare tactic and they cant really do much legally. But if its just a scare tactic it will never end because people will know its been x amount of years and no action.

Im assuming these super big people do have tons of $$ and can possibly attempt to challenge Disney. And yes Disney has the best lawyers etc. But they have been challenged by owners before, they dont win everything. And I don't think they want to come down on regular owners so that probably adds to the dilemma of how to handle this, them hoping these new policies will scare people. And I think they may for a little while until they test the waters and nothing happens... again. But it does seem like Disney is getting more serious and thats something to watch and see.

I was at a board meeting where the commercial renters came up and where they said they have hired people to work on it.

How do you know notices haven't been sent out? Do you think someone caught with their pants down's first thought would be to run to the internet and advertise they were the first one caught in the trap? If it's someone with some serious skin in the game, their first call would likely be to their lawyer or a broker to unload some points.

 

[muppets3d]

Is the mouse known for leaving money on the table?

Not for long, that's for sure!

I'm surprised that they don't expect a cut of the sales from those tacky t-shirts and amazon affiliate links that all the vloggers are peddling on their youtube channels.

 

[Cyberc1978]

To stir the pot a little over my second cup of coffee this morning, the language in the "new" rules that i find most interesting from a spectator's standpoint is this (emphasis added):


I'm curious how the major rental brokers will rationalize around that one.

"Regular", not frequent or repeated.
"A dedicated website" as in a rental brokers website?
"Third-party service provider" as in a "third-party intermediary"?
"Or on any other media or platform now known or hereafter devised" which sounds like it includes tear-off flyers stapled to a telephone pole or messages written on a bathroom stall.

So the broker who lists 1,000 DVC reservations for rent on their website is at risk. Same applies if they list in SoMe.

 

[muppets3d]

How do you know notices haven't been sent out? Do you think someone caught with their pants down's first thought would be to run to the internet and advertise they were the first one caught in the trap? If it's someone with some serious skin in the game, their first call would likely be to their lawyer or a broker to unload some points.

I would expect the first signs of notices being sent out will be all these podcasts that nobody listens to of people talking about their "tips and tricks" will no longer be sponsored by brokers.

 

[DonMacGregor]

So the broker who lists 1,000 DVC reservations for rent on their website is at risk. Same applies if they list in SoMe.

I don't disagree. The argument has always been "We don't rent points; we just facilitate rentals", like they're the Dolly Levi of DVC (there's a deep reference for some of you to Google). I don't think that dog hunts anymore.

 

[Tatebeck]

It would be funny if they started sending warnings out today on April Fool's Day, but it is no joke!

 

[Cyberc1978]

I don't disagree. The argument has always been "We don't rent points; we just facilitate rentals", like they're the Dolly Levi of DVC (there's a deep reference for some of you to Google). I don't think that dog hunts anymore.

Some brokers have their own rentals listed and they probably have 1,000 yearly rentals or more. They have every single day of the year listed in a studio at Boardwalk and AKV value. They have multiple of the same reservations. They also have a lot of other DVC resort listed.

 

[Mirabell Rose]

I don’t think it’s “great”, but I agree that if an enforceable violation is “a pattern of majority of point use by someone not on the deed” then he would definitely show up on the radar if there isn’t a 20 rental threshold.

We shall see….

This adds to the thought of adding adult children to deeds if they are using the points regularly.

 

[Fullchaos]

Came for the @Brian Noble post and was not disappointed.

I don't have much of a dog in this fight, but it seems to me that these are areas where Disney is suggesting they may take action / investigate. I think it's fairly obvious that Disney isn't looking for your conjoined room or your family coming somewhat regularly on your membership. Not to say they couldn't get militant about it in the future, but that seems like it would have a negative impact and not be what they're going for here.

 

[Cyberc1978]

It would be funny if they started sending warnings out today on April Fool's Day, but it is no joke!

I actually thought about that. They changed the policy yesterday, can they go after owners today and claiming they are in breach? After all owners did or did they? adhere to the past policy. Now come 1 day later and Disneys says you are in breach. Wouldn’t that be considered bad faith on Disneys side?
If Disney want owners to adhere to the new policy should they have ample time to get their ducks in a row?

 

[Moonspinner]

When you rent with a broker, the risk is still on the owner. I don’t think brokers will be in trouble, unless they are owners. Well, except that their entire business could go bust.

 

[AstroBlasters]

This adds to the thought of adding adult children to deeds if they are using the points regularly.

I can think of many more reasons not to add children to the deed than I can think of reasons to.

Creditors, Early Death, Divorce….

 

[DonMacGregor]

Some brokers have their own rentals listed and they probably have 1,000 yearly rentals or more. They have every single day of the year listed in a studio at Boardwalk and AKV value. They have multiple of the same reservations. They also have a lot of other DVC resort listed.

Oh absolutely. It's no secret when you have a "Buy it Now" option front and center on your resale listing page that you must then logically own some number of contracts (cause ya just said you'd buy 'em). Even if your intent is to flip them, you still own them for some time.

Buy, strip, and flip could be quite profitable if you leverage a "get that sweet, sweet cash now" approach with a seller who's experiencing some financial difficulties, or has a contract they'd just rather be rid of than wait months to unload it while continuing to pay dues. Plus, buying contracts at a reduced price though a "buy it now" scheme makes selling them at a later date as stripped contracts at a reduced price far more palatable.

 

[atthebeachclub]

I would expect the first signs of notices being sent out will be all these podcasts that nobody listens to of people talking about their "tips and tricks" will no longer be sponsored by brokers.

I actually listen to basically all DVC podcasts I find. They are light and fluffy fun that reminds me of vacation when the rest of the world feels heavy.

 

[Tatebeck]

I actually thought about that. They changed the policy yesterday, can they go after owners today and claiming they are in breach? After all owners did or did they? adhere to the past policy. Now come 1 day later and Disneys says you are in breach. Wouldn’t that be considered bad faith on Disneys side?
If Disney want owners to adhere to the new policy should they have ample time to get their ducks in a row?

IMO they could very well send notices today. They aren't actually making a new rule, just clarifying what they consider to be some of the things that means you may be considered acting commercially, which the actual anti-commercial rules in the contracts themselves always allowed.

And the new clarification does not specify time periods, so if someone has a ton of reservations and they are all in other peoples names, they could be looked at today. Disney had just previously chosen not to look into it, but maybe now they choose to.

Disney choosing not to enforce something previously does not mean that it was previously technically allowed. They were always breaking the rules, they just now are being caught