Number of People Walking

[ziravan]

Just lock a reservation until after the window for the checkout date. That would stop walking.

Book at 11 months. fine.
Want to add 8th or more days a few days later? Fine.
Want to DELETE a day within the window? Say No. Not allowed. But you can delete in a few more days, after the window passes their reservation. No more walking.
(More specifically, they only need to restrict deleting days from the beginning of the reservation)

Impact on regular bookers? Minimal. Only someone who needs to shift their day or made a mistake would possibly get stuck. But that is user-error and not really DVC's fault.

So. You can add after the 7th night but not drop. That way you can book your whole vacation but not drop (or walk) forward?

What’s the limit on that? Because the POS limit for stays is 30. So. I’m a large point owner and I want to book the VERY popular 21st of the month. On the first, I book the 1st through the 7th. Now, I hold the room.

Every few days or so, I add days (can’t take them off until after I’m done, but I have plenty of points to play with).

I keep doing this through to the 21st when I can book to the 28th (the dates I want to stay are the 21st check in and 29 check out).

Mind you, I’m NOW booked the 1-29th.

On the 30th, when all dates are free and clear, I drop the 1-20.

NOW. Walking is a King’s sport, avail to high point owners only.

Good thing I own the points for that new game.

 

[crvetter]

So. You can add after the 7th night but not drop. That way you can book your whole vacation but not drop (or walk) forward?

What’s the limit on that? Because the POS limit for stays is 30. So. I’m a large point owner and I want to book the VERY popular 21st of the month. On the first, I book the 1st through the 7th. Now, I hold the room.

Every few days or so, I add days (can’t take them off until after I’m done, but I have plenty of points to play with).

I keep doing this through to the 21st when I can book to the 28th (the dates I want to stay are the 21st check in and 29 check out).

Mind you, I’m NOW booked the 1-29th.

On the 30th, when all dates are free and clear, I drop the 1-20.

NOW. Walking is a King’s sport, avail to high point owners only.

Good thing I own the points for that new game.

As walking currently stands anyone with enough points for 2 nights really is just as equal as those with more points. They would just need to walk each day. So apart from the luxury of not needing to walk each day the higher point owner isn't significantly at a huge advantage. As an owner I'm not overly concerned about this. In fact it was something I specifically realized during the sales pitch at DVC (when buying direct before my resale add on) that would be advantageous to do. I brought it up, expressed it as a "loophole" to which they responded there really isn't a way to close it and they felt the sentiment in my first sentence was enough to give everyone an advantage. So not significantly unfair.

 

[ParkHoppers]

Fixing walking won’t fix that.

The problem isn’t walking; it’s a mismatch of supply/demand.

Walking is just a symptom.

Even if you end walking, those in the know still have a knowledge advantage. How many average owners are gonna set up on universal time and click right at the moment?

Shoot, how many owners even here know the cheat on that? I’m not talking.

The only way to give every owner an equal shot is to use a lottery for the first two weeks of Dec and all the time for concierge and value. That’s it’s own set of problems and besides, far too much work for DVC to take on with no economic benefit to itself.

You can hate walking; it or some other loophole is always gonna be a fact of a system that requires a large amount of knowledge to master.

The average person just doesn’t have the attention span to create the egalitarian system you desire. And that’s not a bad thing. People invest their time in what is worth their time - to them. That’s why I’m not opposed to walking. I think owners that seek out and use their time to understand the system, even its loopholes, SHOULD have an advantage as a result.

Every owner has an equal opportunity to invest in the knowledge base and time necessary to walk. It’s not like walking is a direct owner perk. Maybe it should be??

So you are basically the Hans Gruber of DISboards. Your not a thief.......your an exceptional thief. Lol.

 

[WDW_Ding]

Sorry, but what does "walk" mean? I've been a DVC owner for 8 years or so and I have no idea...

 

[Orsino]

And that then benefits the large point owners because they can afford to walk much longer. I am far from a large point owner but I could still walk a Value Studio for 3+ weeks.

I see what you are saying, but I would be okay with it. Walking is a problem, if walking is limited by how many points an owner has, that is still a limit and is better than the current situation. Furthermore, I think if someone owns a pile of points, then booking a long vacation is just part of owning those points. The real problem comes from cycling those points. In fact, I would even classify booking with a huge pile of points that the owner owns as materially different from cycling points by deleting and adding days as different things. I'd be OK with owners using their points to their advantage (no way to stop that), but cycling points by abusing the modify tool is a completely different thing.

Also, those same points have to dwindle down sometime. I mean, if you want to walk forever you can, but at some point you have to actually use them and then they are no longer available for walking.

 

[ziravan]

So you are basically the Hans Gruber of DISboards. Your not a thief.......your an exceptional thief. Lol.

Sure.

To the same extent that everybody here is a thief when you take money out of a bank...where you have an account...from the balance you have on account...

That said, I DID manage to turn 100 AKV points into 4 nights in a value during F&W and 3 nights in a concierge during Star Wars opening next Dec for access to advanced FP booking. I’d call that pretty exceptional.

 

[Orsino]

So. You can add after the 7th night but not drop. That way you can book your whole vacation but not drop (or walk) forward?

What’s the limit on that? Because the POS limit for stays is 30. So. I’m a large point owner and I want to book the VERY popular 21st of the month. On the first, I book the 1st through the 7th. Now, I hold the room.

Every few days or so, I add days (can’t take them off until after I’m done, but I have plenty of points to play with).

I keep doing this through to the 21st when I can book to the 28th (the dates I want to stay are the 21st check in and 29 check out).

Mind you, I’m NOW booked the 1-29th.

On the 30th, when all dates are free and clear, I drop the 1-20.

NOW. Walking is a King’s sport, avail to high point owners only.

Good thing I own the points for that new game.

I think a small amount of "walking" is unavoidable. But what you describe here is significantly different than someone abusing the modify tool to achieve the same thing. If you have the points to book an extra month out, go ahead. No one ever said that money can't buy things. But at some point you run out of points and can't walk anymore so there is at least a cap of some sort as opposed to the infinite cap we currently have.

 

[JETSDAD]

I see what you are saying, but I would be okay with it. Walking is a problem, if walking is limited by how many points an owner has, that is still a limit and is better than the current situation. Furthermore, I think if someone owns a pile of points, then booking a long vacation is just part of owning those points. The real problem comes from cycling those points. In fact, I would even classify booking with a huge pile of points that the owner owns as materially different from cycling points by deleting and adding days as different things. I'd be OK with owners using their points to their advantage (no way to stop that), but cycling points by abusing the modify tool is a completely different thing.

Also, those same points have to dwindle down sometime. I mean, if you want to walk forever you can, but at some point you have to actually use them and then they are no longer available for walking.

Either way you're blocking rooms that you have no intent on keeping. I could do that for 3 weeks to get a trip at the beginning of December, then do the same for 2 weeks for a spring vacation. Someone sitting on a thousand + points won't need to walk for many months, just walk long enough to beat out most owners. This way rooms are actually going to be tied up much longer. None of this has anything to do with abusing the modify tool as it was possible to do prior to the modify tool....it just involved making phone calls.

 

[ziravan]

I see what you are saying, but I would be okay with it. Walking is a problem, if walking is limited by how many points an owner has, that is still a limit and is better than the current situation. Furthermore, I think if someone owns a pile of points, then booking a long vacation is just part of owning those points. The real problem comes from cycling those points. In fact, I would even classify booking with a huge pile of points that the owner owns as materially different from cycling points by deleting and adding days as different things. I'd be OK with owners using their points to their advantage (no way to stop that), but cycling points by abusing the modify tool is a completely different thing.

Also, those same points have to dwindle down sometime. I mean, if you want to walk forever you can, but at some point you have to actually use them and then they are no longer available for walking.

I disagree with the last point. There’s a whole game of banking and borrowing that could be played to always keep points both cycling and dwindling...at different times in their 3 year shelf life.

 

[Orsino]

Either way you're blocking rooms that you have no intent on keeping. I could do that for 3 weeks to get a trip at the beginning of December, then do the same for 2 weeks for a spring vacation. Someone sitting on a thousand + points won't need to walk for many months, just walk long enough to beat out most owners. This way rooms are actually going to be tied up much longer. None of this has anything to do with abusing the modify tool as it was possible to do prior to the modify tool....it just involved making phone calls.

So the criticism is that implementing a system that removes most, but not all "walking" is unacceptable for some reason? I'm not sure I get why.

 

[JETSDAD]

So the criticism is that implementing a system that removes most, but not all "walking" is unacceptable for some reason? I'm not sure I get why.

A) I don't see a problem with walking as it is within the rules and not only has been made possible but has been encouraged.
B) That wouldn't remove most walking, it would just change how things are walked and make the cheapest of rooms 100% unavailable to those with few points at 11 months.

 

[ziravan]

So the criticism is that implementing a system that removes most, but not all "walking" is unacceptable for some reason? I'm not sure I get why.

Because then you’ve turned a loophole that anybody can use into one that only the high point holders can use.

To the extent that walking is “unfair”, that just makes it more so.

I’m not a fan of the little guy being screwed by the rules. I personally don’t think that’s the case now (because even small fry point owners can walk), but it would be under a system that benefits large point owners.

 

[Orsino]

I disagree with the last point. There’s a whole game of banking and borrowing that could be played to always keep points both cycling and dwindling...at different times in their 3 year shelf life.

I think you are over estimating the power of banking and borrowing. Everyone has a finite number of points. At some point those points run out.

As more and more people walk, soon everyone who wants December will have to walk. Under the current system, it won't be long until the only people who get December studios are people who walk. We might be there already; I don't know. As people learn that they have to walk to get what they want, they will walk earlier and earlier. This is not sustainable.
If restrictions are put in for deleting days, then that removes peoples ability to walk. That people own a stockpile of points is a separate issue, I'm not even sure "walking" is the right term. Maybe "blocking"? Either way, people with more points have more points, there isn't any way to stop that.
Does that mean some big point owners can use those points to get what they want? Perhaps. But that is way better than everyone walking and having to walk.

 

[ParkHoppers]

Sure.

To the same extent that everybody here is a thief when you take money out of a bank...where you have an account...from the balance you have on account...

Not at all. DVC says you can book your home resort at 11 month mark. ANY attempt to book over the 11 month window is a cheat to the rule and other members. You are trying to spin it as something else. Then you brag over and over that because someone takes the time to learn to cheat that they deserve the right to cheat. Are you serious. Large knowledge base to understand walking? Laughable. You keep telling yourself that what you are doing is OK. It seems to have worked on yourself but please don’t expect all others to buy into your false narrative.

 

[Orsino]

Because then you’ve turned a loophole that anybody can use into one that only the high point holders can use.

To the extent that walking is “unfair”, that just makes it more so.

I’m not a fan of the little guy being screwed by the rules. I personally don’t think that’s the case now (because even small fry point owners can walk), but it would be.

Okay. I misunderstood. I'm taking the point of view that walking is bad. You do not. Obviously, if someone thinks walking is OK they would not want limitations on walking. We are talking about different things entirely then.

I'm a small point owner, and I think limiting walking would be a good thing. I don't want to have to walk to book a room. That I have the ability to walk a reservation is not helpful in that regard.

 

[ziravan]

I think you are over estimating the power of banking and borrowing. Everyone has a finite number of points. At some point those points run out.

As more and more people walk, soon everyone who wants December will have to walk. Under the current system, it won't be long until the only people who get December studios are people who walk. We might be there already; I don't know. As people learn that they have to walk to get what they want, they will walk earlier and earlier. This is not sustainable.
If restrictions are put in for deleting days, then that removes peoples ability to walk. That people own a stockpile of points is a separate issue, I'm not even sure "walking" is the right term. Maybe "blocking"? Either way, people with more points have more points, there isn't any way to stop that.
Does that mean some big point owners can use those points to get what they want? Perhaps. But that is way better than everyone walking and having to walk.

Again, walking is the symptom not the problem.

To the extent that 200 people want 50 rooms, 150 of them are going to be excluded, under any system.

The problem is the popularity of Dec combined with the advent of small point owners.

DVC created this problem the moment they relaxed the 160 point minimum. The original system was designed such that every owner would have enough points to sample various booking categories. It’s now a de facto studio purchase event for bookings not so limited.

NOTHING you do to walking will fix that.

This problem has been exasperated over time and it’s starting to reach a breaking point, but it’s not walking that’s breaking the system.

That was done a decade ago.

And it’s going to get worse, much worse.

 

[Orsino]

That said, I DID manage to turn 100 AKV points into 4 nights in a value during F&W and 3 nights in a concierge during Star Wars opening next Dec for access to advanced FP booking. I’d call that pretty exceptional.

I missed this earlier. I see where you are coming from. You aren't looking out for the little guy, you're looking out for yourself.
I'd be fine with DVC limiting your ability to walk.

 

[Orsino]

Again, walking is the symptom not the problem.

To the extent that 200 people want 50 rooms, 150 of them are going to be excluded, under any system.

The problem is the popularity of Dec combined with the advent of small point owners.

DVC created this problem the moment they relaxed the 160 point minimum. The original system was designed such that every owner would have enough points to sample various booking categories. It’s now a de facto studio purchase event for bookings not so limited.

NOTHING you do to walking will fix that.

This problem has been exasperated over time and it’s starting to reach a breaking point, but it’s not walking that’s breaking the system.

That’s was done a decade ago.

But it is more fair to have them seek out their reservation rather than the room going to someone willing to walk it? Saying well, you could walk it too only exasperates the problem and negatively effects people trying to get rooms not even related to the desired vacation dates. So now all 200 people start walking, that isn't better, that is demonstrably worse. Then every year they try walking earlier and earlier.

We simply disagree.

 

[ziravan]

Not at all. DVC says you can book your home resort at 11 month mark. ANY attempt to book over the 11 month window is a cheat to the rule and other members. You are trying to spin it as something else. Then you brag over and over that because someone takes the time to learn to cheat that they deserve the right to cheat. Are you serious. Large knowledge base to understand walking? Laughable. You keep telling yourself that what you are doing is OK. It seems to have worked on yourself but please don’t expect all others to buy into your false narrative.

By definition, following the rules is not cheating.

I’m not the one trying to play Calvin-ball here; you are. You’re the one attempting to enforce moral rules that actually aren’t in the rule book.

Feel free to govern your behavior by whatever extra restrictions you choose to place on yourself.

I’m following the rules as they exist.

And you are coming fairly close to breaking the rules of this board; there’s no need to name call in a civil discussion.

 

[ziravan]

I missed this earlier. I see where you are coming from. You aren't looking out for the little guy, you're looking out for yourself.
I'd be fine with DVC limiting your ability to walk.

It wasn’t there earlier. I was being snarked on and snarked back a little.

The value days I picked up in the wake of walkers. The concierge days after DVC blocked everybody from walking and finally opened them up again.

In a “first come, first serve” system, competition is part of the process. I learned the system to compete better. Why else invest the time?

And because I know the rules - and the loopholes - I’d compete better even if walking was banned. THAT’S how I got both reservations, not by my walking them.