Not to reopen that can of worms but...

[agavegirl1]

I loved reading your trip report!

Thank you so much! It pretty much sums up my FP+ experience.

 

[MrInfinity]

Well, this is a backtrack, but I'll let you have it because I like your name. I won't concede that it has been a positive to their bottom line, however, because I haven't seen anything indicating it and also because the expenses of the "innovations" were considerable. I don't know if it has or hasn't been a positive. Yet. Even if it's not a net positive now (truly have no idea), it may be in the future.

I don't see how you can make that conclusion. I don't know "most". I don't know how I would know how they feel. I guess you know more people than I do? (Wouldn't be hard, to be fair.) Has there been a non-Dis poll? I would love to see it. You may 100% be right, but I don't know where your facts are coming from.

You don't have to "know" most people to understand what appeals to most people. Disney has the statistics on this, and they report on them. I've quoted these things so many times, they seem tired and old hat now. But, since I haven't talked you about it before, I'll rekindle some of the actual Disney info on it... From Bob Iger himself:

*****
What I can say is that what has been rolled out has been a real success–both for the guest and for us. So to give you a for instance: Our parks people in Walt Disney World believe during the peak holiday season that we were able to accommodate about 3,000 more additional guests in the Magic Kingdom per day thanks to Magic+.

One of the most attractive features–and one that I think will have possibly the biggest benefit is the FastPass+, which is the ability [skipping, we all know what it is]. What we are seeing there is substantially higher utilization of that product among our guests than we saw with the traditional FastPass–by the way–by a wide margin. And since the goal of this was to make the guest experience better, enable the guest to experience more, to do so more efficiently, and essentially to be able to customize, we think that these are very, very good signs for us because clearly, guest satisfaction is very, very important to the value equation for us–both in how they spend their time when they are with us, and a determining factor in terms of whether they come back.

So this is all very good. So I would say the biggest impact is first, the ability to accommodate more people–just because it’s simply more efficient; and secondly, enabling the guest to have a substantially better experience than they’ve had before, because they are doing more.
*****

Now that's just one quote of many. But it DEFINITELY is benefiting more guests than FP- ever did, and "by a wide margin". We later learn the actual numbers. I could go look those up too. So I don't have to know more people than you to be able to say that FP+ is having a significantly positive effect on the typical guest experience for most guests, given, I do not assert that is is having a positive effect on ALL guests, as there will always be those few who loved FP- so much that Disney World will never be the same to them without the paper ticket system.

It actually *did* seem easier ... after the throwaway room, and figuring how to divvy up my FPs between my husband and daughter, and staying up till midnight, and reading these boards incessantly (thank you mesaboy2 thread). But once I did all that and more (ad nauseum), yes, it did seem easier in the parks.

See, I think that's an anomaly and not the norm there. I don't think you're making the case that the typical non-Dis'er guest is booking throwaway rooms -- are you? To say YOU did this is fine, but we're talking about whether FP+ is a better system overall.

You use the boards your way, I'll use them mine. I am never NOT looking for tips and tricks, but where else could I possibly go to complain about this? Sometimes venting is the healthiest thing to do.

This seems kind of unwelcoming. Don't we use them kind of the same? Chat? Debate? Get and share info and strategies?

Last post of the evening for me. I am slightly better today (from the cold from hell), but still feel kind of crappy, and yet strangely hopped up from the steroids. Still no voice. High hopes for tomorrow.

Get well!

EDIT: Looking up some of the later quotes, this was a good one, from 3q2014:

About half of the guests now use MagicBands and 90% of them rate the experience as excellent or very good.

So a little less than a year ago, usage was at 50%. It is going to be higher even, by now. Comparing to FP- which was only used by about 10% of the guests, it's pretty clear this is successful for so many more people, which makes it inherently a better system.

 

[itchin2go]

You don't have to "know" most people to understand what appeals to most people. Disney has the statistics on this, and they report on them. I've quoted these things so many times, they seem tired and old hat now. But, since I haven't talked you about it before, I'll rekindle some of the actual Disney info on it... From Bob Iger himself:

*****
What I can say is that what has been rolled out has been a real success–both for the guest and for us. So to give you a for instance: Our parks people in Walt Disney World believe during the peak holiday season that we were able to accommodate about 3,000 more additional guests in the Magic Kingdom per day thanks to Magic+.

One of the most attractive features–and one that I think will have possibly the biggest benefit is the FastPass+, which is the ability [skipping, we all know what it is]. What we are seeing there is substantially higher utilization of that product among our guests than we saw with the traditional FastPass–by the way–by a wide margin. And since the goal of this was to make the guest experience better, enable the guest to experience more, to do so more efficiently, and essentially to be able to customize, we think that these are very, very good signs for us because clearly, guest satisfaction is very, very important to the value equation for us–both in how they spend their time when they are with us, and a determining factor in terms of whether they come back.

So this is all very good. So I would say the biggest impact is first, the ability to accommodate more people–just because it’s simply more efficient; and secondly, enabling the guest to have a substantially better experience than they’ve had before, because they are doing more.
*****

Now that's just one quote of many. But it DEFINITELY is benefiting more guests than FP- ever did, and "by a wide margin". We later learn the actual numbers. I could go look those up too. So I don't have to know more people than you to be able to say that FP+ is having a significantly positive effect on the typical guest experience for most guests, given, I do not assert that is is having a positive effect on ALL guests, as there will always be those few who loved FP- so much that Disney World will never be the same to them without the paper ticket system.



See, I think that's an anomaly and not the norm there. I don't think you're making the case that the typical non-Dis'er guest is booking throwaway rooms -- are you? To say YOU did this is fine, but we're talking about whether FP+ is a better system overall.



This seems kind of unwelcoming. Don't we use them kind of the same? Chat? Debate? Get and share info and strategies?



Get well!

EDIT: Looking up some of the later quotes, this was a good one, from 3q2014:

About half of the guests now use MagicBands and 90% of them rate the experience as excellent or very good.

So a little less than a year ago, usage was at 50%. It is going to be higher even, by now. Comparing to FP- which was only used by about 10% of the guests, it's pretty clear this is successful for so many more people, which makes it inherently a better system.

I put your quotes under the category of P.R. Did you see what I said about too big to fail? No way to know if statements are 100% accurate, or manipulative in attempt to cover jobs. I don't believe everything that people tell me. I know certain statements have agendas. I worked for a company that made certain acquisitions that were not popular with shareholders. I saw statements like that go out. They weren't about fact. They were P.R. You can almost always find facts to support whatever agenda you are pushing.

And really, I don't know the answers. You may be right. I'm just questioning the unbridled certainty.

I didn't mean to be unwelcoming. I do try to be constructive on these boards, but sometimes, I understand the need to vent.

 

[Lucius Best]

What I can say is that what has been rolled out has been a real success–both for the guest and for us. So to give you a for instance: Our parks people in Walt Disney World believe during the peak holiday season that we were able to accommodate about 3,000 more additional guests in the Magic Kingdom per day thanks to Magic+.

I don't know what this means. First of all, this isn't statistics or proof of anything, it's a PR statement. Does this mean that they increased park capacity by 3,000 during Christmas week? If so, how did MyMagic+ make that happen? Or does it mean that capacity stayed the same, but 3,000 more people went through the turnstiles, while remaining near capacity? One explanation for that would be people coming in, using their 3 FP+, then leaving faster than they used to under the old system because it's a zoo, and since they leave there's room for other people to come in.

I also find the wording interesting. Were there 3,000 more people per day? Or was it some other people "believe" there were 3,000 more people per day? Was it really due to MyMagic+, or do some people believe it was thanks to MyMagic+? Regardless, not sure how an extra 3,000 people in MK during peak holiday time is good for anyone actually visiting MK that day.

One of the most attractive features–and one that I think will have possibly the biggest benefit is the FastPass+, which is the ability [skipping, we all know what it is]. What we are seeing there is substantially higher utilization of that product among our guests than we saw with the traditional FastPass–by the way–by a wide margin.

I would love to see the numbers on this, and how they define higher "utilization". I would say FP utilization has increased dramatically on rides like Haunted Mansion, Pirates, Spaceship Earth that never had FP before. I would also suspect that FP utilization has increased on headliners like BTMRR, Splash, TSMM, Soarin'. With old paper FP, the first window was something like 9:40-10:40am, and the return window kept moving forward even if no one was pulling paper FP. Now you can book a 9-10am window two months ahead of time. I would also think that FP utilization has increased on secondary rides like Mission Space, Star Tours, Dinosaur, because at the smaller/tiered parks, you need to pick 3 rides, whether you care about them or not. Also, do we know how many FP+ Disney is giving out per hour compared to FP-?

But it DEFINITELY is benefiting more guests than FP- ever did, and "by a wide margin".

Interesting that Bob Iger says that FP+ is something he "thinks will have possibly the biggest benefit", but according to you it is all-caps "DEFINITELY" a benefit. Given how adamant you are that everything Disney says is gospel truth, I have come around to your way of thinking, I will listen to Bob Iger.

 

[itchin2go]

I would love to see the numbers on this, and how they define higher "utilization". I would say FP utilization has increased dramatically on rides like Haunted Mansion, Pirates, Spaceship Earth that never had FP before. I would also suspect that FP utilization has increased on headliners like BTMRR, Splash, TSMM, Soarin'. With old paper FP, the first window was something like 9:40-10:40am, and the return window kept moving forward even if no one was pulling paper FP. Now you can book a 9-10am window two months ahead of time. I would also think that FP utilization has increased on secondary rides like Mission Space, Star Tours, Dinosaur, because at the smaller/tiered parks, you need to pick 3 rides, whether you care about them or not. Also, do we know how many FP+ Disney is giving out per hour compared to FP-?

I liked your whole post, but this in particular intrigued me. How are they even defining FP usage? Is it just booking the FPs? Because I booked FPs I didn't even use (Epcot, I'm looking at you ). And you're right, an easy way to increase a program is to offer it on more attractions. I actually believe (rightly or wrongly) that FP usage is up - no proof, just anecdotal stuff. But their numbers ... those are muddy waters ... lots of room for things interfering and perhaps artificially driving them up. And again, there's an agenda ...

 

[JimmyV]

(Actually a Quote from Bob Iger): What we are seeing there is substantially higher utilization of that product among our guests than we saw with the traditional FastPass–by the way–by a wide margin.

Now that's just one quote of many. But it DEFINITELY is benefiting more guests than FP- ever did, and "by a wide margin".

One has to be careful not to conflate "utilization" (which was Iger's word) with "benefiting" which was your word. There is no question that many, many more separate individuals are using FP+s each day and that more FP+s are being doled out and redeemed. So the use number is up--and by a wide margin. But to determine if more people are benefiting from this "by a wide margin" requires a whole other level of metrics. FP+s that are used in the first hour or so of park operation count as "utilized" FP+s, but are those passes really "benefiting" the user if the line at RD was non-existent? FP+s used at minor attractions count as "utilized" FP+s, but are the passes used at Muppets 3-D really benefiting the user? Lots of people report that they have a difficult time figuring out how to use their 3rd FP+ at Epcot and/or DHS, but they probably book that third FP anyway, and use it most of the time. There could be a full third of FP+s at these parks that are "utilized" but not necessarily "beneficial". I am not saying that your conclusion is wrong, per se. It just bears proceeding with caution when one sees Iger's word "utilized". It is not a synonym for "benefiting".

 

[Lucius Best]

I actually believe (rightly or wrongly) that FP usage is up - no proof, just anecdotal stuff. But their numbers ... those are muddy waters ... lots of room for things interfering and perhaps artificially driving them up. And again, there's an agenda ...

Exactly, I would guess number of FP+ reserved is way up compared to FP-, just on the basis of more rides with FP+ and people able to book FP+ from home up to 60 days in advance. But that's just the nature of FP+, doesn't automatically mean that most people like it or that it's a benefit to most or that people find it easier to use. I don't know what could have been easier than sticking your park ticket into a kiosk and pulling out a paper FP- ticket. And I don't know how you determine whether or not MyMagic+ is a success for Disney until you factor in that $1 Billion dollar price tag and have several years of attendance data.

 

[WillAustin]

I will listen to Bob Iger.

His statements are at best corporate spin language that will always paint things in the best possible light for shareholders. But I agree with your thought that utilization doesn't mean anything other than people are using the FP+ system that is almost mandated anyway.

 

[MrInfinity]

I don't know what this means. First of all, this isn't statistics or proof of anything, it's a PR statement. Does this mean that they increased park capacity by 3,000 during Christmas week? If so, how did MyMagic+ make that happen? Or does it mean that capacity stayed the same, but 3,000 more people went through the turnstiles, while remaining near capacity? One explanation for that would be people coming in, using their 3 FP+, then leaving faster than they used to under the old system because it's a zoo, and since they leave there's room for other people to come in.

I also find the wording interesting. Were there 3,000 more people per day? Or was it some other people "believe" there were 3,000 more people per day? Was it really due to MyMagic+, or do some people believe it was thanks to MyMagic+? Regardless, not sure how an extra 3,000 people in MK during peak holiday time is good for anyone actually visiting MK that day.

I agree the wording is lacking, but my read was that because people toured more efficiently, they spent less time in the parks, thus accommodating more guests. Not that they raised the fire-code maximums or anything like that. I think as a result of MM+, they squeezed more ppl thru the attractions more efficiently. I believe most guests have a subconscious target number of things they like to ride (not talking about Dis'ers here)... as in, a typical casual guest might want to ride 5 things in a day, then are content to go do something else. Most families are not power-riders that want to ride ride ride. So by getting ppl onto a few rides quicker, they move on to doing other things, like go swim or hang out at the lake. FP- was designed to do this -- get ppl to not be waiting in line... but all it did was become a system that got taken over by a power-crowd who learned how to work it, and most guests got no benefit from it. FP+, with it's initial 3-limitation and early selection, gets pretty much everyone to use it. Huge difference!

I would love to see the numbers on this, and how they define higher "utilization". I would say FP utilization has increased dramatically on rides like Haunted Mansion, Pirates, Spaceship Earth that never had FP before. I would also suspect that FP utilization has increased on headliners like BTMRR, Splash, TSMM, Soarin'. With old paper FP, the first window was something like 9:40-10:40am, and the return window kept moving forward even if no one was pulling paper FP. Now you can book a 9-10am window two months ahead of time. I would also think that FP utilization has increased on secondary rides like Mission Space, Star Tours, Dinosaur, because at the smaller/tiered parks, you need to pick 3 rides, whether you care about them or not. Also, do we know how many FP+ Disney is giving out per hour compared to FP-?

Utilization is the number of guests who use the system divided by the number of guests total. So if the MK takes 50,000 visitors in a day... how many do you think use FP+ in some way? I'm guessing almost all do by now. Really how could you not? That would mean you pick no rides in advance and visit no kiosk. Probably still a small set of ppl doing this but it's going to be very small. I'm guessing under 20% that do not use FP+ at all. That means utilization would be 80%. What would you guess that number is?

And of course I'd love to know the % of SB vs FP on the rides, but we don't really get that info. We can reverse engineer some of it, especially at rides where they split 50/50 like Soarin and Space Mtn.

Interesting that Bob Iger says that FP+ is something he "thinks will have possibly the biggest benefit", but according to you it is all-caps "DEFINITELY" a benefit. Given how adamant you are that everything Disney says is gospel truth, I have come around to your way of thinking, I will listen to Bob Iger.

Bob Iger has a little more at stake than I do.
And I never said everything Disney says is gospel truth. Where do you get this? I listen to what Disney says, yes, but then make sense of it, compare w what I'm seeing, etc. Disney makes lots of mistakes. Tomorrowland was a flop. But then they also hit enough mega-home-runs that they are the industry leaders. I really believe FP+ is going to set the stage for all theme parks to copy and in 10 years digital lines will be everywhere.

 

[Angel Ariel]

No one I personally know would be content with only doing 5 attractions in a day for the cost of wdw tickets. And I'm talking about average Disney guests, not power users, not people who visit annually or bi-annually..just average once in a lifetime or once every like 5+ years type visitors.

 

[Lucius Best]

His statements are at best corporate spin language that will always paint things in the best possible light for shareholders.

Yes, that's what I would expect all CEOs to do, I was being sarcastic, sorry.

 

[MrInfinity]

No one I personally know would be content with only doing 5 attractions in a day for the cost of wdw tickets. And I'm talking about average Disney guests, not power users, not people who visit annually or bi-annually..just average once in a lifetime or once every like 5+ years type visitors.

Hi Ariel,
I think you'll be surprised to know the actual numbers.
Start here: https://crooksinwdw.wordpress.com/2013/12/14/theoreticaloperational-hourly-ride-capacity-at-wdw/
Copy / paste the MK section to Excel. Sum the Operational Hourly Ride Capacity column.

Total? 25,425 rides per hour.
Times 12 for a 12-hour day.

305,100 rides in a day, provided all rides are open, and nothing is broken down!

50,000 guests? Divide those rides by 50,000

As you can see, the average number of rides ridden per guest is 6.1.

I don't make this stuff up. It's actual numbers. The average rides per guest is 6.1. Which means for every guest like you, and apparently everyone you know, who is not content w 5 rides, some other guests are getting less than 5 rides. For each person who rides 12 things, it takes 3 people who ride only 4 things to make that possible. It's hard to think most guests are not like us out here on the Dis. But most guests ride WAY less than we do.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Hi Ariel,
I think you'll be surprised to know the actual numbers.
Start here: https://crooksinwdw.wordpress.com/2013/12/14/theoreticaloperational-hourly-ride-capacity-at-wdw/
Copy / paste the MK section to Excel. Sum the Operational Hourly Ride Capacity column.

Total? 24,255 rides per hour.
Times 12 for a 12-hour day.

291,060 rides in a day, provided all rides are open, and nothing is broken down!

50,000 guests? Divide those rides by 50,000

As you can see, the average number of rides ridden per guest is 5.8.

I don't make this stuff up. It's actual numbers. The average rides per guest is 5.8. Which means for every guest like you, and apparently everyone you know, who is not content w 5 rides, some other guests are getting less than 5 rides. For each person who rides 12 or 15 things, it takes a lot of ppl to ride 3 or 4 to make that possible. It's hard to think most guests are not like us out here on the Dis. But most guests ride WAY less than we do.

I was not talking about myself and dh. I was very clear that I was talking about average Disney goers *that I personally know.* I have seen the numbers you reference before, so no, they don't surprise me. They do not apply to the average Disney goers *that I personally know.*

I was speaking to personal encounters and experience, not making a general statement.

 

[Lucius Best]

Utilization is the number of guests who use the system divided by the number of guests total. So if the MK takes 50,000 visitors in a day... how many do you think use FP+ in some way? I'm guessing almost all do by now. Really how could you not? That would mean you pick no rides in advance and visit no kiosk. Probably still a small set of ppl doing this but it's going to be very small. I'm guessing under 20% that do not use FP+ at all. That means utilization would be 80%. What would you guess that number is?

I have no idea how many guests use FP+ compared to FP-. I don't even know if that's how Disney defines FP utilization, or if it's defined by total # of FP, or percent of available FP, or what.

You ask how could you not use FP+? Maybe if you don't know about it, don't know how to use it, don't have a smart phone, are computer-challenged, or just don't want to use it. And for the same reasons people didn't use FP-. I could never understand how people couldn't figure out FP-. The kiosks were right there next to the ride with a CM to explain it to you, the FP and Standby lines are usually side-by-side with signs above them, every park map had instructions on how to use it.

With the old paper FP, I once saw a tour guide who had pulled a stack of 100 FPs for BTMRR, all of them saying "NOT A VALID FASTPASS" in big bold letters. I don't envy the CM who was trying to explain why she was going to have a problem. Then there were the people we overheard at BTMRR saying that Disney's Express Pass was $80 per day and they couldn't afford it. Or the people who thought the Splash FP return queue was for a different ride. Somehow all of these people now have the MDE app on their phone, and their friends and family all linked, and booked their 3 FP+ online 60 days in advance?

 

[MrInfinity]

I have no idea how many guests use FP+ compared to FP-. I don't even know if that's how Disney defines FP utilization, or if it's defined by total # of FP, or percent of available FP, or what. You ask how could you not use FP+? Maybe if you don't know about it, don't know how to use it, don't have a smart phone, are computer-challenged, or just don't want to use it. And for the same reasons people didn't use FP-. I could never understand how people couldn't figure out FP-. The kiosks were right there next to the ride with a CM to explain it to you, the FP and Standby lines are usually side-by-side with signs above them, every park map had instructions on how to use it.

Alright, so make this an interesting discussion. Share your opinion on what % of guests are in that group that doesn't know about FP+, doesn't know how to use it, doesn't have a phone, etc. I realize you don't know that number, but what makes for an interesting debate is when you state your opinion and defend it, not just say "nobody knows anything so we should just not talk about it". Tell me what you think that number is. The number of guests who do not use FP+ at all. Out of a typical 50,000 MK day. I guessed around 20% do not use it at all, for the reasons you stated among others. Do you concur? Disagree? 10%? 30%? 50%? What?

 

[Lucius Best]

As you can see, the average number of rides ridden per guest is 5.8.

I don't make this stuff up. It's actual numbers. The average rides per guest is 5.8. Which means for every guest like you, and apparently everyone you know, who is not content w 5 rides, some other guests are getting less than 5 rides. For each person who rides 12 or 15 things, it takes a lot of ppl to ride 3 or 4 to make that possible. It's hard to think most guests are not like us out here on the Dis. But most guests ride WAY less than we do.

I see your actual numbers just changed from 5.8 to 6.1, but I'm certainly not going to argue those numbers. I'm wondering how many of those "typical" people are "content" getting only 5 or 6 rides per day.

 

[SmithSmith]

EDIT: Looking up some of the later quotes, this was a good one, from 3q2014:

About half of the guests now use MagicBands and 90% of them rate the experience as excellent or very good.

Just pointing out the obvious...

This quote is about MagicBands, not FP+.

 

[MrInfinity]

I see your actual numbers just changed from 5.8 to 6.1, but I'm certainly not going to argue those numbers. I'm wondering how many of those "typical" people are "content" getting only 5 or 6 rides per day.

Not being sneaky, I mis-copied since there are a few 0's in some rows there, I left off the MI Laugh Floor. It's 6.1. Point is the average of rides ridden at the MK per person per day is about 6. So for everyone riding one more than 6, someone else rides one less than 6. And so on. People ride way less than we assume they do just cuz we are proverbial experts on how to ride a lot. Most folks are not, nor do they necessarily strive to ride much more than a few things. I'm guessing they are quite content riding that number of things they do, which is one reason FP+ is so successful. It gets most guests on a few rides faster than before, which is about what they're content with.

 

[JimmyV]

I don't make this stuff up. It's actual numbers. The average rides per guest is 6.1.

The "capacity" of 50,000 that is used in your example includes people who have "hopped" in from another park; landed at MCO at noon and got to the MK as fast as they could; people who are flying out of MCO at 2:00 p.m. and want to make one last stop in the MK before they leave; elderly grandparents who are along for the day but who don't really "do" rides; infants and young children who are mostly interested in meeting characters and doing some very tame rides; people who turn the turnstile mainly because they have an ADR and who plan to leave after they eat; etc. This is not to suggest that these folks comprise the majority of the 50,000. But when you factor all these things in, it is easy to see how the average number of attractions completed per day by guests who are purposefully touring the MK for pretty much a full day can jump to 9, 10, or even much more. The "hopper" may have done 8 things at AK that day. So even if they only do 6.1 things at the MK, they have still had a full day. Logic dictates that people in the park for 12 hours are not content to do one attraction every 2 hours, unless they are there at Christmas. I have to believe that very few people who visit the MK in October are mulling about doing one attraction every 2 hours. I have never really witnessed the masses touring in such a manner.

When the MK opened, Ticket Books were sold in 8 and 11 Attraction levels. Remembering back to those days, we never left with unused tickets. But by the same token, we never burned through two "11 Adventure Ticket Books" in a day. 8-11 attractions per day seemed to be about the norm.

 

[3DisneyFanz]

It's funny but you could replace liquid soap with MDE and be just as likely to find stats to support that as Iger's comments about attendance. The numbers are there to show that attendance and profit have increased since the Borax powder was replaced.