Not taking teen on planned WDW trip as punishment to harsh?

[HappyLawyer]

Before being a lawyer i taught middle school, special ed, emotional disturbed and behavior disturbed children. In that time, i dealt with so many parents who made excuses for their kids, some kids today are so disrespectful and rude and act too grownup, i am glad to see a parent follow through on her consequences, i used to be a passive parent, i let my child rule me, i felt bad when i would exclude her on thngs, i went back on my word and guess what-nothing got better until i took a stand and basically let her know i was tired of her crap and there would be consequences, this i am assuming was not a spur of the moment trip, this child knew the trip was upcomming, and yet still decides to act up, what does that tell you? I get so mad when i read responses (yes i deal with it because i tolerate the answers of others, we do not have to agree nor will we) of these parents,who want to let the child earn the trip back, how can this be done, what can this child possibly do to earn this reward back? If children know they can play on you and your emotions they will make fools out of you-out of us, i have had it done, we all have if we choose to admit it or not.

Why should the vacation of other children suffer because their sister cannot behave, basically what i am reading on here is just ignore what she has done let her go on vacation-why? Children are going to grow up walking all over their parents, all because parents are so concerned with not disappointing them. I am glad i am not in that state, discipline does not mean she does not love her child, but she also has two other children to think about too.

Anyway to the op- i am here to support you and others are also, keep you head up
good luck

 

[LindsayDunn228]

HappyLawyer,

Standing ovation for your post! You rock!!

 

[txgirl]

hello again I posted several days ago and I have checked back to read what others have written. Man, is it good to know we are not alone! My oldest is only 10, and is a very sweet, quiet, creative, blah blah blah beautiful girl. Over the last couple of years there has been an attitude issue that I would address with, "you better straighten up", or "GO TO YOUR ROOM!" and then I would either berate her because of my hurt and anger, or use my "power" as her parent to "make" her behave. Still, no real changes. This past fall I feel like I found the key. For everyone it is different. The common denominator must be consistency....for sure.

We are a family in which everyone thinks that things are always perfect. All of our children are very well liked by their teachers and their peers. When I shared with my close friends what was going on behind closed doors (screaming raging fits when she was disciplined) they could not believe it. Of course everyone had their advice, but basically no matter what I did I felt like I was losing this battle I found myself avoiding confrontation at all cost and then preparing for battle if I must discipline her at all. I knew she was building a wall and to be honest I was glad. It hurt too much to be near her sometimes. We had family come and stay with us at Thanksgiving and so our little secret was out. Things needed to change and through precious advice of a dear friend and many prayers my quest began.

I drew close to her and confided in her my prayers, my hopes and my fears for her. I told her I was on her side and that I knew we would come through this. It is all about choices. She must make them. She must live with them. I must enforce what "live with them" means. Very difficult. If you make choice "a" then you must deal with the cost of that choice. I had to watch sometimes when I knew she was making the wrong choice. Then show up to give her love and support. That used to mean scream, yell and try to "punish" her. Now that means to hug her, love her and then apply the "discipline" that follows. Swift, severe and costly does not have to mean screaming or spanking. Every child has a currency (stole that from Dr. Phil) It's just figuring out what your child considers costly. Realizing that she was pushing my buttons, yanking my chain, bringing me to her level was the awakening. Someone said that kids are like pigs in a mud pit, sloshing around gettin' all stinky and nasty and muddy and when we as parents fall for their tricks we are getting in the pit with the pigs, but guess what? The pigs like it!!!

It has been the most difficult thing I have done....thus far. Not "reacting" to every single glare or roll of the eye or cut with the tongue. Allowing her to "choose" that behavior and then later when things are calm (when I am calm) I apply the cost of that behavior, making sure she understands all the while, "how much i love her , and that it hurts me when she makes these choices". Make no mistake, there have been some costly choices for her in the past 5 months. Many a night eating alone in her room, several weeks on complete restriction, afternoons kept at my side because "you are not able to make good choices when you are with your sister" after fighting, missing piano lessons (tuition coming out of her allowance) for poor study habits, missing a family outing (paid for the baby sitter with her allowance), etc.

Long thread, I know and I'm sure there are some belt-whippin' mommas out there shaking there heads. Still I can say I have swung a belt many a time and sat up crying my eyes out later, wondering what can I do to make this change? I have shared this only as a means to help, if possible.

By the way, I still agree with the majority of threads which state you must follow through. Whether or not it is too harsh is really beside the point. Your word must begin to count. Hang in there, because a beautiful young lady who loves her mother is waiting around the bend. My daughter is absolutely not perfect by any means but she is not the same child either. You can see the anger rise in her face and just when you think, "here we go" , all of a sudden she says, "I need some time alone" YIPEE!!! In the end, she had to make that choice, not me.

Hugs

 

[HappyLawyer]

i also find the belt is non effective, in addition to that i hate when i have to get her butt, i only use the belt if it is something extreme or life threatening, it does not work on my dtr, she has figured out what i figured out as a kid, you get whipped, it hurts, it stops it is all over-lol my dtr just came off a two week punishment, what did she do she yelled ate her teacher and was disrespectful, when the principal called me my dtr would not take the phone she was scared because she knew she was going to get in trouble, in the car she asked me if i was going to spank her, i said no, i told her mommy loves you, i also reminded her of the behaviors teachers must put up with, what i had to put up with, i am a firm believer the behavior needs to be addressed while our kids are young, i told her she would no longet be on the basketball team, no tv and no x box she would come home, have dinner, homework, shower then bed, i made sure she understood why she was being punished, i also made sure she understood the terms, she likes to play games with me, so since she told me she understood, i would spank her if she tried to watch tv or ask for prividlidges, she had this sad look on her face -this was the look she use to give me that caused me to break down, give in and let her off the hook, i told her she could save it, because that does not work with me any longer. I told her the next time it happenes her punishment will be until the end of the school year, she would have no activities, if she cannot behave at school why should she be rewarded. So anyway, i do not shake my head at you i commend you.

 

[Donalds#1Fan]

I really disagree with a lot of the posts. Someone said "don't punish the rest of the family by taking her a long" or something along those lines...WOAH WOAH WOAH!! Back up here. How could taking her along punish the rest of the family? It seems that the issue is school related and not knowing how to handle the freedom of making wise decisions in a non homelike setting. How would you be punishing the rest of the family for behaviors that happen at school. That almost seems as if taking the other child is a burden and quite honestly if someone were to think that way about me in any way I would most definitely not be happy and would rebel more.

It makes me genuinely sad to read things like that because I don't believe that any person regardless of behavior, mental capacity, etc. should be thought of as a punishment. Maybe her behaviors don't warrant special activities and things, but if your reason for not taking her is because the rest of the family will be held back (yet I don't see how that is possible as her behavior seemed school related only) then that needs to be reevaluated.

Teens are going through a lot of changes. They have to grow up fast, start to act mature, and have to face the challenge of giving up their childhood innocence for streetsmarts, etc. It's a tough time and teens tend to take things very emotionally. It saddens me to see some posts saying that she will be sad while the others are happy talking about their trip, etc(different words). I don't see that as a fair punishment. Having to be emotionally disrupted and having to remember Disney as a "trip everyone else got to go on and have a great time together, but I was left behind."

I really don't know how to put this into words, but people naturally fear rejection. Personally, anytime I am left while my siblings get to spend happy time as a family...I feel terrible and tend to push everyone away in order to not feel the sadness. I know it was stated earlier that notes to the teacher were being done, etc, but word to the wise: labeling a teen as going through teen years and bringing that up to them constantly only makes matters worse. My mom did that by saying: "the teenager" did this...well it only made me feel worse about how I was feeling inside.

Yes, it is a punishment, yes what she did was wrong, and yes she deserves something harsh, but I don't think being left behind is the right punishment. If she has difficulties paying attention in school then her punishment should relate to that.

 

[skiwee1]

I am amazed that there are still those that have the archaic notion that whipping a child with a belt is an okay thing to do. I don't care how life threatening something is, a child should NEVER be struck with a belt. I do hope that those that are looking for discipline means do not resort to child abuse, which is exactly what belt whipping is. How sad. The parents that use as belt should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Schmeck]

Having to be emotionally disrupted and having to remember Disney as a "trip everyone else got to go on and have a great time together, but I was left behind."

What about the students in the classroom who had their emotions and learning process disrupted when the daughter acted up, yet again?

And so what if she has to remember this trip that she didn't get to go on - nobody gets everything they want, do they? We all have to live with consequences, and with not being able to do something we'd really like to do, but can't. Do you think her entire life will be ruined because she was not allowed on this trip? Or do you think it will be something she will remember, not pleasantly, but as a reminder about consequences? (BTW, people do live without ever going to WDW, really, they cope quite well...)


My oldest daughter still says she didn't learn anything in 3rd grade because her teacher had to spend so much time dealing with students like the OP's daughter. My youngest daughter gets very stressed out when kids misbehave in class. She wants to learn, and doesn't understand why kids think they can be rude, and lie, to teachers. I get frustrated because my kids ask me why the other kids act this way.

 

[minmate]

Oh boy, I have a lot of thoughts going thru my head reading these posts -- I will make an attempt at making them cohesive.

Your describe dd as bright, intellectual, honor roll type... I'm betting she is more insightful and is able to draw deeper conclusions than the avg 14yo, even if she, herself doesn't realize it. She is the oldest of (almost) 4 children... the other 3 significantly younger than her... They share mom AND dad... she doesn't. They are close in age... she isn't. They require more physical attention from you... she can be more easily made to wait and/or give in (not saying you do this tho). She probably learned from a young age (and maybe it's just intrinsic to her personality and brightness) that she doesn't have anybody... As much effort as you put in as her mom the cards, the talks, the shopping), she is still an emotional, hormonal teenager. She may see things in more black and white than you. While you can remember these exceptions, these special things you do for her... she may only see the glass half-empty... she may be feeling emotionally or mentall empty... she may feel like talking, passing notes, having gum, candy and the gameboy fill her up... either because she is totally bored in school or because she is missing a connection to you, to this world... ultimately to herself... A lot of that is normal for teenagers. I think b/c of her/your specific circumstances the situation may be more compound. I think it is important to realize this and address it. She may and probably will fight you on this because she may have already long ago put up a wall to her own needs and feel she doesn't "need" anybody, but she DOES. There is a fine line between being sensitive to the unspoken, underlying needs and the feeling of "get your act together kid" and tough love. As parents, we need to find it... somedays we can, somedays we can't. But we still need to try.

With that said, your dd may crave emotional connection with you (she may not, but if she does) -- I think it is so vital to try to build that now before she is totally detached from you. But you also need to have a serious talk with her... find out in concrete, measurable terms just how much time she needs, wants, expects from you. She needs to have realistic expectations of your family life... but first she needs to believe she fits and know very securely HOW she fits in.

How would SHE plan your day with the parameters that are fixed (job, etc.) and how would SHE fit in more time with her.... if she knew what your day was REALLY like, she may be more appreciative. In fact, this is a bit of a tangent, but it could be an interesting experiment to have her shadow you while she is suspended. I don't know if you'd be able to take her to work with you... but maybe?

As far as her actual behavior in school, discuss with her WHY she does these things she isn't supposed to do. Maybe you and her teachers could make her write about why she does them. Or better yet, if, in talking with her teachers you are able to ascertain that she is frequently getting her work done quicker, grasping concepts in a lecture quicker, etc., that she maybe be allowed to keep a journal during class. She can write and doodle whatever she wants. She will still have to be expected to be involved and called upon during class discussion though. It can be up to you and the teacher if this journal should be kept private or should be available for teachers and you to read... but she should know which it is. I think being able to write and express the thoughts and ideas in your head while you're bored during class is, at the very least a more acceptable alternative to what she is doing.

I think you could go either way with the trip. If you do allow her to come with you, I would discuss with her that you have re-thought her punishment and would like her to come on the trip. That this is a family planned experience and she should still have the opportunity to be a part of it. However, I would definitely consider adding some of all of these parameters:

1) Family Counseling. She needs it individually. You all could use it b/c you've blended two families together and even if you think the transition has been made smoothly... you could be surprised. I really don't see how it can hurt.
2)Excellent behavior from here on out.
3) Come up with a short mantra that she should say to herself (like self-affirmations)... I'm not sure what I would have it be... but something about. "I have the power to make good choices today. I will practice self-control because doing the right theng is more important than instant gratification." Make her say it to herself in the morning and everytime she goes by a mirror... try to get her in the habit of doing it before she does something she "knows" is inappropriate behavior. I believe in this... it worked for me greatly in trying to lose weight. Many times I'd get to the snack cupboard, with my hand on the door wanting to pull out some junk food and hear myself saying, "Being thin and healthy feels better than that food will taste."
4) Additional chores as you see fit until trip.
5) Require her to keep a journal on the trip.
6) Find some measurable way for her to get an educational experience out of the trip.
7) If you trust her enough at this point, have her watch the little ones for a night while you and dh have some alone time.
8) She should be restricted from everything social until the trip too. She should instead, take that time to learn some self-control techniques. This is a huge "tool" that she'll need in the "real" world. Hopefully she won't, but she may find herself in a boring job or at least a job that has some boring or mundane aspects to it at times and she is going to have to learn to deal with that in an appropriate fashion.

Anyway, this is MHO. Bottomline: I think there is a way to rethink your choice and bring her along; however, you could also implement a lot of these ideas and still leave her with dad. She'd still be getting a vacation to NC, though not WDW...

 

[minmate]

What about the students in the classroom who had their emotions and learning process disrupted when the daughter acted up, yet again?

And so what if she has to remember this trip that she didn't get to go on - nobody gets everything they want, do they? We all have to live with consequences, and with not being able to do something we'd really like to do, but can't. Do you think her entire life will be ruined because she was not allowed on this trip? Or do you think it will be something she will remember, not pleasantly, but as a reminder about consequences? (BTW, people do live without ever going to WDW, really, they cope quite well...)


My oldest daughter still says she didn't learn anything in 3rd grade because her teacher had to spend so much time dealing with students like the OP's daughter. My youngest daughter gets very stressed out when kids misbehave in class. She wants to learn, and doesn't understand why kids think they can be rude, and lie, to teachers. I get frustrated because my kids ask me why the other kids act this way.

By the way... I completely empathize with kids who are wanting and trying to learn and the teachers trying to teach them but get hung up in this kind of behavioral stuff with one, two, or however many disruptive kids. It does need to be addressed. It does need to be stopped. But the reasoning behind it DOES need to be explored. It MAY be just that the kid is bored, lacking self-control or whatever... but it could be something deeper. It likely will require more than one idea or attempt to stop the behavior. I guess I'd rather err on taking a bit gentler approach for awhile. But if that doesn't work than tough love does come next.

 

[MickeyMonstersMom]

Your describe dd as bright, intellectual, honor roll type... I'm betting she is more insightful and is able to draw deeper conclusions than the avg 14yo, even if she, herself doesn't realize it...

Or better yet, if, in talking with her teachers you are able to ascertain that she is frequently getting her work done quicker, grasping concepts in a lecture quicker, etc., that she maybe be allowed to keep a journal during class. She can write and doodle whatever she wants. She will still have to be expected to be involved and called upon during class discussion though.

Excellent suggestion! As a teacher, I'd be quite open to letting a student who has a strong grasp of the material and getting her work done have this outlet, especially with the understanding that she still contribute to discussions and such. The only other guideline I'd give is that she must keep the journal to herself during class, not showing it to others or turning it into a sort of billboard for passing notes to friends. I would not want to read it unless the student wanted to share something with me - that way if she wanted to complain about an activity there (instead of challenging me and starting problems in class), she could do so without fear of punishment.

As to the current situation, I continue to feel for you and hope you are able to resolve this meaningfully for your family.

 

[Marseeya]

Ok coming from a mom with a son who has many years of issues to come (he had a stroke in utero resulting in delays in speech and has epilepsy) How dare you compare you friends son to a child without issues who is acting out against the school and her parents!

Um. I don't see anywhere in my post where I compared anything to the OP. I was merely reacting to the thought of a teacher telling his students that they are a waste of his time (which he's being paid for). Where you see me making that comparison is beyond me

It is highly offensive when people use a child's learning disability to make a point on something totally unrelated like this. What is everyone supposed to agree with you out of pity for your friends child?

Again, I was making no comparison and if you'll read my post I said "my friend," not my friend's child.

I'm sorry you chose to take offense. As a parent with a child with multiple learning disabilities and years of suffering in the school system, I was merely reacting to something that I didn't even relate to the OPs situation. I wasn't aware that thread drift never happens in these forums as it does in other forums I frequent! I'll have to make sure to police myself more carefully in the future.

 

[HappyLawyer]

I am amazed that there are still those that have the archaic notion that whipping a child with a belt is an okay thing to do. I don't care how life threatening something is, a child should NEVER be struck with a belt. I do hope that those that are looking for discipline means do not resort to child abuse, which is exactly what belt whipping is. How sad. The parents that use as belt should be ashamed of themselves.

that is your opinion, if you choose to have your children run all over you who has the right to judge you, do not put down someone else because you do not agree with the way they raise their child, there is a difference between abuse and discipline

it is not your house or your family, so why are you worried about how they run their household.

 

[HappyLawyer]

If anyone on here cannot be respectful of others, then you really should not critize and keep what ever you think to yourself,
It amazes me how qucik someone on here is to judge others, get over yourself because i am a natural advocate and i will defend anyone on here i am not going to let anyone gang up on anyone here, so if people like to argue that is fine, hey i do it for a living -so let's just keep everything respectful and not call names or disrespect each other
no one has the right to tell anyone they should be ashamed of themselves, you should be ashamed for that statement.

 

[skiwee1]

that is your opinion, if you choose to have your children run all over you who has the right to judge you, do not put down someone else because you do not agree with the way they raise their child, there is a difference between abuse and discipline

it is not your house or your family, so why are you worried about how they run their household.

Funny thing is, my children have never been allowed to run all over me and I haven't had to resort to child abuse either. Yes there is a difference between discipline and child abuse. When you use a belt you have crossed the line.

 

[skiwee1]

If anyone on here cannot be respectful of others, then you really should not critize and keep what ever you think to yourself,
It amazes me how qucik someone on here is to judge others, get over yourself because i am a natural advocate and i will defend anyone on here i am not going to let anyone gang up on anyone here, so if people like to argue that is fine, hey i do it for a living -so let's just keep everything respectful and not call names or disrespect each other
no one has the right to tell anyone they should be ashamed of themselves, you should be ashamed for that statement.

I am not ashamed to come to the defense of children and never will be. You said yourself in an earlier post that using a belt didn't work on your DD, just like you figured out that it hurts for a little and then you go back to your ways. Why would anyone use a belt when they themselves know it does no good? Abuse breeds abusers. It's a horrible cycle and one I wish those that went through it would stop at themselves.

 

[txgirl]

Okay skiwee1-

I read your post earlier today and decided to let you vent and not respond. Now that I see you have posted three times over this issue I thought I might drop a line or two.

Happy lawyer has made a point. Just acknowledge that much. Name calling and accusations are never productive and often produce hostility, which is not what this thread has been about at all. For the most part, parents have written in to encourage and lift up this mother who needs support.

Regardless of your opinion regarding spanking you seem to have missed the point.
1st) No one advised spanking for the child in question
2nd) My post (which was the original re: spanking) was an outpouring of emotion regarding the parenting of my oldest child and only mentioned (in jest) that I knew there were parents who felt like corporal punishment was necessary at times and to acknowledge what that felt like but "encourage" other ways. You may find it interesting that 90% of the parenting population have spanked at one time or another. Whether you think it is right or wrong, it is often the choice.
3rd) You will find that people will hear your opinions and respect them most often when they are spoken with love and kindness.

Here lies my point. We are encouraging this mom to love and teach her daughter, through consequences while respecting her needs. In the meantime something has rubbed you the wrong way and you have choosen to point your finger angrily at those who you do not know. I had hoped my post would raise an awareness of how to think "outside the box" when it comes to parenting. I believe you can state your feelings regarding spanking without demeaning the parent who chooses to do so (which by the way is pefectly legal and not considered child abuse in any state as far as I am aware)

Parenting is so very difficult. We have all made some decisions we wish we could do over and some that we agonize over daily. We should support one another and offer "advice" regarding our own opinions and what works for us. I thought that was were this thread began?

 

[sha_lyn]

Don't assume because it didn't work for one person, that it doesn't work for others. Also it is your opinion that spanking is abuse, however it is not a fact. Any punishment can be abuse if done to an extreme. Yes spanking, time out, grounding etc are punishments. None of them will work if not used with discipline and love.

 

[skiwee1]

Don't assume because it didn't work for one person, that it doesn't work for others. Also it is your opinion that spanking is abuse, however it is not a fact. Any punishment can be abuse if done to an extreme. Yes spanking, time out, grounding etc are punishments. None of them will work if not used with discipline and love.

No one said anything about spanking. Using a belt for a butt whipping is a long way from spanking, don't you think? Why stop at a belt? Why not a metal strap? Perhaps a whip would be even better? Spanking is MUCH different then using a belt. That is abuse. Plain and simple.

 

[txgirl]

You are sensationalizing the terms to make a point. "If" spanking was an acceptable discipline in your eyes, then you would know that often parent experts, noted psychologists, doctors, authors, etc. recommend using something other than a hand, ie: wooden spoon, leather strap, etc. These would all sound barbaric to someone who does not consider spanking appropriate.

I think you have some crazy idea about belts swinging at children. A spanking must be administed under a controlled environment, no anger involved. I regret mentioning the word belt. It has sent you into a tailspin where obviously you have some history. I apologize for sending a mixed message. My original quote regarding belt-whippin' was ment to be taken in jest. Sort of like, my kids are driving me insane. I wouldn't want to offend the actually, "insane" by being sarcastic, I guess. Let's move on. NO abuse here. NO abuse from happylawyer. NEXT.......

 

[skiwee1]

You are sensationalizing the terms to make a point. "If" spanking was an acceptable discipline in your eyes, then you would know that often parent experts, noted psychologists, doctors, authors, etc. recommend using something other than a hand, ie: wooden spoon, leather strap, etc. These would all sound barbaric to someone who does not consider spanking appropriate.

I think you have some crazy idea about belts swinging at children. A spanking must be administed under a controlled environment, no anger involved. I regret mentioning the word belt. It has sent you into a tailspin where obviously you have some history. I apologize for sending a mixed message. My original quote regarding belt-whippin' was ment to be taken in jest. Sort of like, my kids are driving me insane. I wouldn't want to offend the actually, "insane" by being sarcastic, I guess. Let's move on. NO abuse here. NO abuse from happylawyer. NEXT.......

I get so upset about using a belt because my husband was abused this way for years when he was little. And yes it is abuse. He still looks sick if the subject is brought up and he is 44 y/o. His father thought nothing of trying to control him with belt whippings as long as he could remember. Very sad. To say my husband hates his father now is an understatement. He disowned his father when he became a teen and could defend himself. It is amazing how the brave belt wielders could be so cowardly when one stands up for themselves. I do think there are many better ways to get one's point across besides inflicting pain. A swat on the butt to get a child's attention after telling them not to go into the road for the 3rd time is one thing. To actually make a belt into a weapon to inflict pain is another thing altogether. I believe a parenting class is in order for anyone that feels the need to hurt a child to get one's point across.