Not educating child

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I DID answer your question. As I said, I have nothing to hide. It wouldn't bother me, because I have nothing to hide from them.
And yes, good public schools DON'T count on standardized tests to tell them how thier kids are doing. They really SHOULD be nothing more than documentation of the job they are doing, the same as they would be for a homeschooler. If they catch a problem that the school failed to identify then they would not be doing their job. The same would apply to a homeschool situation. I don't think I said differently?

You do realize that without a reason, our government doesn't permit that kind of oversight. (You know--the whole needing an actual reason other than just 'cause they feel like.)

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

And when they are not educated to the point of being able to support themselves, the general public ends up paying to support them. That ias the crux of my issue. When you (the general you) choose not to educate your children, the whole of society ends up fottingthe bill. As long as that is the case I think there should be some accountability. I think there needs to be some form of accountability in ALL forms of education, not just homeschool. I am not going to take a teacher's word that she is educating the students without any evidence to back that up. Why should that be any different when the teacher just happens to be mom?

The crux of the issue is a figment of your imagination.

Kind of like assuming that anyone who looks "foreign" must be an illegal immigrant.

Yes, your criticism comes across in that manner--you are assuming that there is some huge danger that homeschoolers are at some higher risk to become a burden to society. It simply isn't true and anyone who has a basic understanding of statistics could easily figure that one out.

 

[princessmom29]

I am missing your point?

I never claimed I wasn't held accountable.

You seem to feel that standardized testing is the ONLY way to be held accountable. It isn't. You being on your high horse about having to nothing to hide won't change that.
I NEVER said standardized testing was the ONLY way, just that iti s ONE objective method.

So becuase I refuse to agree with you I am on a "high horse"? Really? The fact is that I don't have anything to hide, so no it WOULD NOT bother me. Sorry you cannot fathom that, but thise are the facts.
We as a family have CHOSEN to do testing. Some years are easier than others to just have the test scores reviewed.

I am new to this state and haven't time to fully explore the other options. But I will say I am not pleased to have to physically send in a copy of the test scores. The state, who did NOT educate my children, should not need a physical copy of them.

I have not looked into the alternatives because it requires searching out people willing to evaluate my children.
Agian, the key her is that someone else is evaluating. THAT is what i am arguing for, not necessairly a test, but some form of objective accountability.
Here is the law for MY state. Since HSLDA is based here, it is unlikely it will ever become more restrictive just because you worship standardized testing and consider it the epitome of proof.

It really isn't necessary to get so nasty because you are ASSSUMING you know where I stand when clearly you are not really reading what I am posting. I have not once said standardized testing is the ONLY way for homeschoolers to be accountable. I don't know where youare getting that??

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Can you refer me to the supreme court rulings that back your positions on what the constitution says about home schooling and the role of the state?

I already did that on another thread.

Simply google the constitutional basis for homeschooling and knock yourself out.
I won't post links because of the nature of some of the reasoning. Yes--I find that I might get dinged and won't take that risk.

First, ninth and 14th amendments is a start.

I am not a lawyer so am not going to go head to head on cases and the legal viewpoint that "well that isn't what they meant."

It is constitutionally protected and any attempts to make laws more strict tend to get shot down.

In the end, I am fine with "neglect" not being allowed. I just argue against the viewpoint that neglect can only be disproven by replicating what the public schools do.

 

[princessmom29]

The crux of the issue is a figment of your imagination.

Kind of like assuming that anyone who looks "foreign" must be an illegal immigrant.

Yes, your criticism comes across in that manner--you are assuming that there is some huge danger that homeschoolers are at some higher risk to become a burden to society. It simply isn't true and anyone who has a basic understanding of statistics could easily figure that one out.

No, I am not assuming there is some huge danger, but saying it is figment of my imagination is burying your head in the sand. Cases of educational neglect is homeschool situations DO exist. Denying that won't make them go away. Accountability is a great way to filter the ones that do exist and get those kids a real education. You are once agian putting words in my mouth. I NEVER claimed that it occured more often in homeschool. EVER. I challenge you to show me where that was said. STOP putting words in my mout and read what I am ACTUALLY saying before you start throwing around insults to my intelligence.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

It really isn't necessary to get so nasty because you are ASSSUMING you know where I stand when clearly you are not really reading what I am posting. I have not once said standardized testing is the ONLY way for homeschoolers to be accountable. I don't know where youare getting that??

No nastiness--just facts. You are ignorant of what is involved with homeschoolers and you were pretty darn opinionated that standardized testing should be required.

If that isn't the only way, you would not be advocating that it be required of an the entire population of homeschoolers.

 

[punkin]

Exactly, It is sad but true that parents are often the LAST to recognize that something isn't right becuase they don't want to believe that it could happen to THIER child. I have seen situations similar to more often than I care for. The school says there is something going on and the child needs to be tested. Mom promptly pulls them out to homeschool becuase the school couldn't possibly be right, and they know their child better than anyone at school possibly could. THEY don't see it, but it is there nonetheless. Fast forward to high school or college and the parent is finally forced to admit there is a problem, years too late.

Much as I respect DD12's teachers and guidance counselors, it seems to me that my opinion about my child's capabilities, strengths, and weaknesses carries a lot more weight than the opinion of a person who sees my child as only one of 30 (or more) students.

That argument can go both ways though, when the parent is telling the school there is a problem and the school ignoring it & probably thinking you are a crazy parent even though they also brought it up every year as a problem in conference!!! So, I would ask if he could get evaluated because of XYZ to see if there is an issue causing the problem or if it's just him being stubborn (had one teacher tell me no way would he qualify, yet 2 years later after repeatedly asking JUST for evaluation -- not even full blown testing to see if he was on track -- found out he wasn't & once they did the full testing, he qualifed for services -- only took me 4 years total of bringing it up again & again & again before we even got to the testing stage).

Ahhh, been there. If it costs the district money, they are very good at ignoring problems.

I am not sure where I stand on homeschooling oversight, but I do believe that the case in the OP is extreme and not indicative of most homeschoolers.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

No, I am not assuming there is some huge danger, but saying it is figment of my imagination is burying your head in the sand. Cases of educational neglect is homeschool situations DO exist. Denying that won't make them go away. Accountability is a great way to filter the ones that do exist and get those kids a real education. You are once agian putting words in my mouth. I NEVER claimed that it occured more often in homeschool. EVER. I challenge you to show me where that was said. STOP putting words in my mout and read what I am ACTUALLY saying before you start throwing around insults to my intelligence.

Okay fine--

Please produce citations about these homeschooling situations exist in such large enough numbers that you feel it warranted to restrict laws further regarding homeschooling.

No--anecdotes that represent such a miniscule portion of the population are not enough. Actual evidence that cites the need for more oversight, please that warrant your comments about having to pay for the neglect later.

 

[princessmom29]

You do realize that without a reason, our government doesn't permit that kind of oversight. (You know--the whole needing an actual reason other than just 'cause they feel like.)

Our government permits that kind of oversight in MANY areas. I wouldn't have a problem with it for child safety.

 

[Becky2005]

You do realize that without a reason, our government doesn't permit that kind of oversight. (You know--the whole needing an actual reason other than just 'cause they feel like.)

A bit scary isn't it that anyone would be willing to have a government official just pop into their home at 2 AM to make sure their children were taken care of up to "whoever's" standard for no reason whatsoever. I mean what if you don't have the right educational toys in the house? What if you were having a bad night and one of the kids were sick or you have a teenager who is ticked off at you & just slammed their bedroom door hard enough to break the door frame that particular night.

I'm thinking she wasn't thinking that is what you were meaning but that is how I took your question...would she be willing to submit to any government agency coming in and making sure the kids are safely taken care of up to whoever's standard.

I have nothing to hide but I still would not welcome an unannounced visit like that.

I don't homeschool but I can't imagine the standardized testing being the end all/be all of everything. I don't even like them for my kids because they are so not accurate -- at least I haven't been able to make heads or tails out of the results AND I did always find it amusing that we would get 4th grade's results in the 1st quarter 5th grade report cards. As if knowing what they did on the test they took in the beginning of 4th grade is going to help me how now that they are out of that grade level?

 

[knitster]

The crux of the issue is a figment of your imagination.

Kind of like assuming that anyone who looks "foreign" must be an illegal immigrant.

Yes, your criticism comes across in that manner--you are assuming that there is some huge danger that homeschoolers are at some higher risk to become a burden to society. It simply isn't true and anyone who has a basic understanding of statistics could easily figure that one out.

Word.

Okay fine--

Please produce citations about these homeschooling situations exist in such large enough numbers that you feel it warranted to restrict laws further regarding homeschooling.

No--anecdotes that represent such a miniscule portion of the population are not enough. Actual evidence that cites the need for more oversight, please that warrant your comments about having to pay for the neglect later.

I'd love to see some concrete evidence, myself.

Our government permits that kind of oversight in MANY areas. I wouldn't have a problem with it for child safety.

What?? Our government most certainly does NOT allow unwarranted investigations of it's free citizens!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Why not fix ALL of the problem, not just some? We KNOW about the public school children who cannot read. By and large, we DON'T know about the homeschool kids who cannot read, and believe me, there are some out there. The poblem with the public school kid who cannot read goes much deeper and is much more complicated than just not having access to an education, and much of it honestly cannot be fixed by the school.

My child couldn't read until age 8.

She is now a slow reader, but reads novels. At present, she wears glasses to help. Short of a multi-thousand dollar therapy, there is nothing that I nor a school could do at the moment.

However, she is extremely intellegient and did very well on her tests besides one or two sections that stood at as not doing so hot. One section was history and she remembered that Betsy Ross was mentioned but didn't know who she was. Since she tested in April--and Betsy didn't get mentioned in her curriculum until May, she missed that part. No idea what the other misses were. The other section was a language section I think.

But back to the point of her not reading until 8--her reading comprehension section was great!

Not sure what would have happened to her in public school. All I know was that she was very upset that she could not read and after some "tests" at home and realizing it may be a vision issue, we set her up for an optometrist immediately.

 

[princessmom29]

Okay fine--

Please produce citations about these homeschooling situations exist in such large enough numbers that you feel it warranted to restrict laws further regarding homeschooling.

No--anecdotes that represent such a miniscule portion of the population are not enough. Actual evidence that cites the need for more oversight, please that warrant your comments about having to pay for the neglect later.

As soon as you prove to me using studies and statistics that homeschoolers don't need any form of oversight. I am not wasting that kind of time on what YOU want to me to do just so you can continue to attemtp to use what I am saying agianst me. I just don't care that much about your opinion. I'm not in 7th grade anyomore. This is the LAST time I am responding to you. It is pointless.

To me ONE child not being educated is too many, and if a simple submission of test scores or other evidence can help prevent that, then I don't understand why it is such a big deal UNLESS you have something to hide.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Word.



I'd love to see some concrete evidence, myself.



What?? Our government most certainly does NOT allow unwarranted investigations of it's free citizens!

Clearly in the constitution!!!!!

 

[princessmom29]

A bit scary isn't it that anyone would be willing to have a government official just pop into their home at 2 AM to make sure their children were taken care of up to "whoever's" standard for no reason whatsoever. I mean what if you don't have the right educational toys in the house? What if you were having a bad night and one of the kids were sick or you have a teenager who is ticked off at you & just slammed their bedroom door hard enough to break the door frame that particular night.

I'm thinking she wasn't thinking that is what you were meaning but that is how I took your question...would she be willing to submit to any government agency coming in and making sure the kids are safely taken care of up to whoever's standard.

I have nothing to hide but I still would not welcome an unannounced visit like that.

I don't homeschool but I can't imagine the standardized testing being the end all/be all of everything. I don't even like them for my kids because they are so not accurate -- at least I haven't been able to make heads or tails out of the results AND I did always find it amusing that we would get 4th grade's results in the 1st quarter 5th grade report cards. As if knowing what they did on the test they took in the beginning of 4th grade is going to help me how now that they are out of that grade level?

So how exactly is asking for ONE report a year on a child's homeschool education at all equivilent to that?

 

[FireDancer]

What?? Our government most certainly does NOT allow unwarranted investigations of it's free citizens!

Really? Was the Patriot Act repealed and no one told me?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

As soon as you prove to me using studies and statistics that homeschoolers don't need any form of oversight. I am not wasting that kind of time on what YOU want to me to do just so you can continue to attemtp to use what I am saying agianst me. I just don't care that much about your opinion. I'm not in 7th grade anyomore. This is the LAST time I am responding to you. It is pointless.

To me ONE child not being educated is too many, and if a simple submission of test scores or other evidence can help prevent that, then I don't understand why it is such a big deal UNLESS you have something to hide.

Your energy is better wasted on public schools then where extreme oversight still allows many more than 1 to not be educated.

As far as citations--you are the one on a diatribe, so the burden is on your to prove your point.

I don't need to provide anything as I am firm in my opinion. Been at this since 2003/4ish. The failures are few and far between and those families who need help, get the help.

Homeschoolers in non-oversight states still get into college. I know that is shocking to you.

But instead of trying to figure out a way to strip my constitutional rights to educate my child as I see fit and back pedaling on your standardized testing statements--your time is better spent on the public school systems where a child falls through the cracks every single day.

It has nothing to do with having anything to hide. Though I can now presume your opinion on many other matters not permitted by the constitution that you would likely support because you aren't afraid.

 

[Wadekind]

I already did that on another thread.

Simply google the constitutional basis for homeschooling and knock yourself out.
I won't post links because of the nature of some of the reasoning. Yes--I find that I might get dinged and won't take that risk.

First, ninth and 14th amendments is a start.

I am not a lawyer so am not going to go head to head on cases and the legal viewpoint that "well that isn't what they meant."

It is constitutionally protected and any attempts to make laws more strict tend to get shot down.

In the end, I am fine with "neglect" not being allowed. I just argue against the viewpoint that neglect can only be disproven by replicating what the public schools do.

My question was sincere and since people keep quoting what is or is not constitutional I thought that maybe someone in this thread had some facts and could help.
I Googled as you suggested (was the "knock your self out" necessary?) and from what I can see many states do have laws that regulate home schooling including testing and the supreme court has ruled that it is constitutional.
No one has said home school should replicate public school only that there is a chance for abuse like the OP talked about.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

So how exactly is asking for ONE report a year on a child's homeschool education at all equivilent to that?

Pretty much, yes.

 

[princessmom29]

Word.



I'd love to see some concrete evidence, myself.



What?? Our government most certainly does NOT allow unwarranted investigations of it's free citizens!

health care , education, nursing homes, hospice care, day cares. ALL subject to random inspection. You cannot take a baby home from the hospital without a car seat. The hospital MUST check it. I personally think it is a GREAT idea to insure proper living environment before the child goes home as well. Itwould prevent a LOT of child deaths.