Newbie Advice

[Ashmanarion]

My wife and I went to an RV show earlier this year and fell in love with a Salem Hemisphere 30' TT. http://forestriverinc.com/nd/default22.asp?location=rv&unittype=&page=floorviewertt&model=302QBUD&choice=salem&nav=rec&name=3347&series=HemiTTrailers

Now, we do not own a vehicle capable of towing anything. I have a Toyota Corolla and she has a Mazda 3. We have looked at getting a SUV for about a year now and will be purchasing one soon since we are now expecting our first child. My wife has been set on getting a Toyota Sequoia for awhile now and I like the vehicle myself but the towing capacities are limited.

What I need help with is figuring out what kind of Travel Trailer we could tow with a Sequoia or comparable other brand model like an Expedition, etc. We're not set on the Salem TT and haven't seen many others to be honest so it's not set in stone but we do want a TT. I know this is asking a lot for not giving much information, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what kind of vehicle we can get that she can drive, good for children, and capable of towing a decent size travel trailer. Thanks for any help, this board and the Photography board are the two best on here.

 

[DaveInTN]

First, congratulations on your first child!!!

Second, you are wise to be giving thought to matching a proper tow vehicle to a TT. That Salem is a fairly large trailer...I've looked at the floorplan myself for our family of (soon to be) 7. It's big! So, with your first child on the way, I think you will find a trailer you love that is quite a bit smaller. Like, several feet and a couple thousand pounds smaller. Even though the unloaded weight of that Salem isn't horribly high, it has a pretty high GVWR and it's over 33 feet long! So there aren't really any SUV's currently being sold that I'd want to pull that trailer with. Maybe a used Excursion or 2500 Suburban properly equipped. But most of today's SUV's have a wheelbase that isn't really long enough to safely control a trailer that long without possibly getting a "tail wagging the dog" situation.

Now, both the Sequoia and Expedition are great family vehicles and also capable tow vehicles with the properly matched trailer. Personally I also like the Suburban and Armada (although it's getting long in the tooth). And considering your family's size, I think you will find several trailers that you will like that would be great matches to any of those vehicles. I'd suggest visiting the websites of some of these RV companies and searching through the available floorplans, as a starter:

http://www.jayco.com/

http://www.keystonerv.com/

http://www.forestriverinc.com/ (you've already been here)

There are a ton of great floorplans that would work great for families of 3-5 people that are a match for the SUV's you like. You may even want to look into Hybrid floorplans...or at least don't rule them out until you've looked them over. They are VERY versitile.

Good luck!

 

[we3peas]

You wanted opinions and here's mine: stay away from Forest River products. We owned a Salem 5th wheel for 3 years. We fell in love with the floorplan as well. Didn't investigate the workmanship as much, we paid dearly for our error. They are VERY poorly made and the company will hassle you about warranty work each and every time you need it. We would camp for a weekend and end up dropping it off about every other month for new repairs that were needed. When we finally sold it we had had it in for repairs 30 times out of 36 months of owning it. Only twice was it something we had done. They also put Carlisle tires on their units and they are in a class action lawsuit over the blow outs that happened frequently because of them. We had one so I know of what I speak.

For our MH we shopped for about 8 months and did lots of research and really looked at the workmanship of the units. We've been very happy with our purchase this time because we did our homework.

For sure look at units first and then at what you need to tow since you need to upgrade vehicles anyway. Do not believe salespeople they have NO CLUE what you need for towing. None of them we talked to when buying our 5th had ever camped or pulled something so heavy. Look at the GWVR's and calculate everything with the additional weight of water and stuff. And before you take your first trip go to a weigh station with the TT completely full and get it weighed so you know what you are pulling.

For getting your questions answered check out these 2 forums: www.IRV2.com and www.RV.NET they have a wealth of info on there.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[Ashmanarion]

Thanks for the great advice! I knew that the Salem we were looking at was huge for starting out, but it was the one we saw that we really liked so I was curious as to what was needed to pull it.

If we're looking at the Sequoia or Expedition(both with a stated towing capacity at 9100-9200lbs), I'm guessing that a travel trailer with about a 7000 GVWR would work?

 

[mickeyfan0805]

Thanks for the great advice! I knew that the Salem we were looking at was huge for starting out, but it was the one we saw that we really liked so I was curious as to what was needed to pull it.

If we're looking at the Sequoia or Expedition(both with a stated towing capacity at 9100-9200lbs), I'm guessing that a travel trailer with about a 7000 GVWR would work?

You're probably close to the mark on that 7,000 number, but don't focus JUST on the GVWR. Some trailers start at 5,500 pounds and can carry 1,500 pounds of gear, giving them a GVWR of 7,000 pounds. Other trailer will start at 5,000 pounds but will carry 3,000 pounds of gear - resulting in a GVWR of 8,000. The lighter trailer, in such a case, actually has a higher GVWR. Considering GVWR is important, but it is not the only factor. You also need to consider tongue weights on the trailer and how that will impact axle ratings and payloads on your tow vehicle. I would suggest spending a lot of time getting onto some RV boards and sites to make sure you understand weight ratings.

The weights all get very confusing. Trailers always weigh more than their dry weights unloaded and may or may not weigh as much as their GVWR when loaded. Vehicle payloads do not account for any passengers or gears while vehicle towing capacities account only for a 150 pound driver. Then you have particular axle ratings, hitch ratings, etc... You are wise to be looking at this BEFORE you get sucked in by a salesperson trying to make a sale and end up in over your head on something your vehicle can't handle

All in all, we are looking at things similar to you and expect we'd be towing with an Expedition. With that said, we have decided that we would be maxed with a trailer with a dry weight higher than 5,500 pounds, staying under 7,000 loaded! If you are traveling frequently in mountains or high altitudes, that number will be lower.

Good luck!

 

[Ashmanarion]

Most of our traveling will be no farther than the World. Since we're in NC, it's just a trip down 95. There could be some trips to the mountains of NC in the future but I don't want to think about towing something near mountains anytime soon. I have been looking at some RV forums and trying to figure out exactly what all the weights are and how I need to calculate what kind of tow vehicle we would need. The one thing that keeps throwing me off is the tow capability listed on many vehicles, which I don't think I should be looking at anyway.

We're not opposed to buying slightly used but if we can get new for around the same price then obviously we would choose new.

mickeyfan, may I ask what types of trailers you're looking at since you mentioned you were probably going to use an Expedition. My wife was excited when I told her we would start looking at Sequoias today, but I would assume we need a Limited trim model which puts the price higher than I want($50,000). Thanks for all the help. Looking at pictures from the fort and rigs really makes me want to get set up now!

 

[mickeyfan0805]

Ashman - feel free to ask anything you'd want, but know that my answers will be theoretical and not experiential. We've been 'exploring' the RV life since last fall and will continue to do so through next season. We anticipate being in position to pull the ultimate trigger before the 2012 season. So, I understand the numbers and the calculations very well, but I cannot speak from personal experience of being there.

As to your question of trailers, there are a number that fit that weight range. If you help me a little with what you are looking for, I can offer more feedback. I have looked at bunkhouse units with dry weights around that 5,500 pound mark. You can find a number of units in the Bullet and Passport lines of Keystone, as well as in the Forest River models. There are a few Jaycos that might work, the KZ Spree might have one or two (there were more in 2010 than there seem to be in 2011), and I believe Coachman has a couple. There are others as well - it all depends on what you are looking for. Generally (although not universally) you will be limited to single slide units - most double slides and super slides will weight too much.

I don't know exactly where your question stands on tow capacity, but let me say this and see if it helps. Every vehicle has a GCVWR (Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating) that establishes the total load that can be hauled by the vehicle. The tow capacity is calculated by calculating the actual weight of the vehicle and adding 150 pounds for the driver - this number is then subtracted from the GCVWR. In other words, an Expedition with the proper configuration has a GCVWR of 15,000 pounds. The vehicle will weight approximately 5,850 pounds. This 5,850, plus a 150 pound driver, means a base tow vehicle weight of 6,000 pounds. Subtract this 6,000 from 15,000 and you get the 9,000 pound towing capacity. However, if you add anything to the tow vehicle (passengers, WD hitch, etc...), that comes off of that gross number and thus reduces the amount left for hauling the trailer. If you have 400 pounds of passengers and 300 pounds of gear in the truck, your 9,000 pound capacity is now 8,300. Clear as mud?

With all of that said, in many 1/2 ton vehicles, your payload is a bigger issue than your tow capacity - you'll often run out of that first in the case of an RV. I won't get into that unless you ask, but it very well may be as big a concern as towing capacity.

 

[mickeyfan0805]

By the way, I live in Detroit and have looked solely at domestic vehicles, so I cannot speak for the Toyota. However, FYI, the Expedition lists retails at $40,700 for an XLT with the tow package and better gear ratio - that has everything shy of leather, heated seats, etc (a video system would be more).

 

[Ashmanarion]

Again, thanks for all the help mickeyfan. I have been looking at the Expedition today and priced one about the same as what you told me. The one I priced was an XLT EL 4x2 with the 100A and Towing packages, Sync system, and weather mats(just $75, but I could go without) to end up being $40,900. If you know this type of setup, would that be sufficient for towing? I've looked at some of the Jaycos and Keystonerv models today as DaveinTN recommended and saw a couple nice ones.

 

[mickeyfan0805]

Ashman - as I said, I'm more than happy to help. We ended up with a surprise move earlier this year that we needed to do in order to help my parents. This move postponed our readiness to bite the bullet on the RV life. So, if I can live vicariously through others in the meantime, I'm happy to do so!

Your set-up with the EL sounds fine as far as your options. You've already added the tow package, and the EL automatically has the 3.73 rear ratio which you would want for towing. The 4x2 also helps by giving you a little extra weight to work with.

The trick with the EL is something I have not been able to fully explore. My greatest concern with the EL is the rear axle load. Payloads in the 1/2 ton SUV's are very limited to begin with (I've not been able to look at a door sticker, but it appears most Expy's run somewhere around 1,600 pounds). A second-tier limitation, in this area, is your rear axle - it can only carry so much weight. With the extra body of the EL, and the significant overhang of the body and frame behind the rear axle, my question about the EL is whether or not it has sufficient room in it's rear axle capacity to handle the tongue weight of a large trailer.

That extended rear end will have something of a lever effect on the tongue, and I'm not sure how that effects the rear axle (although i would think much of it could be dealt with through weight distribution). Still, in the end, you are going to have an 800+ tongue, plus a weight distribution system, hanging off the back of the truck - I'd want to be sure the rear axle could handle that weight in addition to the heavier body and rear end it is already carrying.

The flip side, of course, is that the EL has a longer wheelbase that provides for a more stable towing platform for the longer trailers we're looking at. Without being able to drive an EL onto a scale and check weights, I don't know which is better in the end.

 

[Ashmanarion]

I'm going to stop by a couple places this week and give the Expedition a look. Also going to put out some feelers with a reputable used dealer I know on Expeditions and Sequoias.

I assume that getting a weight distribution hitch setup would take care of the rear axle problems like you mentioned, but that will end up costing a bit more.

I'm not so sure we can get a new vehicle(especially of this size) and an RV in the near future, especially with a child on the way, but the new vehicle is going to be a necessity. The wife does not want to try getting a childseat in a Mazda 3.

 

[mickeyfan0805]

Good luck in your search! Just remember that a WD hitch will be necessary no matter what you buy - so that cost will be there no matter what vehicle you choose.

 

[grumpythis]

you should also think about if you want to go to a larger trailer in the future
when buying a tow vehicle

 

[des1954]

My DH was in RV sales. River Forest products are to be steered clear of. Quality control is terrible, often knowingly shipping out products with problems thinking the dealership can take care of them. Dealers hate warranty work.

As far as a tow vehicle...you need to do a lot of research, and not through RV dealers or car dealers. They are in business to sell you their products and often times salesmen will tell you what you want to hear. Get a subscription to Trailer Life magazine. Lots and lots of good advice in there. Also - get brochures on the vehicles you are looking at. They are full of info regarding weight allowances for towing. Remember - it's not just the weight of the trailer you are towing to be considered. You need to factor in total cargo weight, both inside the trailer & inside the vehicle (including people). In other words, the total weight of everything. Just because a truck is BIG doesn't mean it can handle a lot of cargo weight.

Don't rush into this thinking you need to get something before you go on vacation. You can always rent an RV. Because the market in RV's is very slow if you purchase something you end up not being happy with, you're going to have a difficult time unloading it later. If you buy new typically you're out about 1/4 of the purchase price the moment you sign the papers on it. Take your time and do some thorough research.

Good luck! Half the fun is in the search!

 

[Ashmanarion]

I test drove an Expedition today. It was a lot smoother than I expected and the turn radius was nice. I forgot to look at the door to see what the rear axle could manage though.

 

[lufty]

Stay away from Forest River!! I just bought one this spring 2011 and it had major design flaws!! Heat in only half the camper, leaky shower, etc. The rep at forest river knows me by name now, and he is not at all happy with me. This camper may be up for sale soon if they dont' get off their fanny.