New policy for reservations based on check IN date

[jdg345]

You're making an assumption that may not be based in fact. DVC has already taken steps to curtail what they consider to be commercial renting. As far as another "regular" member deciding to rent out a reservation, well that is entirely within the rules and something we will just have to accept, like it or not.

Whoops... looks like you edited your post as I was responding. Based on your new POV, I would simply say that DVC will in all probability do what is in the best interests of the membership as a whole and not simply a few dozen DIS board members. I guess a decision has to be made on whether this can be lived with or not.

Actually, I think DVC will in all probability do what is in the best interests for DVC and make it appear and spin it as though it is in the best interests of the membership.

 

[tjkraz]

I still say the new setup favors renters and those that have larger point banks. If I have the points, what's to stop me from booking December 19th to the 26th under 20 different names during one call?

What was keeping these so-called professional renters from booking 20 different rooms day-by-day under the old rules?

Of course people with a larger amount of points can book more rooms. They could under the day-by-day system as well.

To say that the new setup "favors" renters implies that they are realizing some benefit that is not available to the rest of the membership. That is not true--and never has been. We are all subject to the same booking guidelines.

 

[tjkraz]

Okay, that is what you believe, but that didn't answer my question.

I understand that it didn't answer your question, Diane, but I think this concept is critical to understanding that mid-week arrivals won't held to as big of a disadvantage as some people may think.

In your own example, you are arriving at one resort on a Tuesday and departing the following Wednesday. Your departure from OKW frees-up a room for someone else to arrive on Wednesday--in the middle of the week.

I'm sure that the vast majority of reservations have always been driven by Sunday arrivals due to the lower points. But as long as there are people who stay less than 5 days and people who stay longer than 7, mid-week arrivals will absolutely be feasible.

Looking back on our own trips as members, about 40% of the time we have either arrived or departed on a Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday.

I have every reason to believe that people will still be able to book trips that begin on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday, and find that all of the availability has not been taken by people booking Sunday + up to 7 days.

 

[jdg345]

What was keeping these so-called professional renters from booking 20 different rooms day-by-day under the old rules?

Of course people with a larger amount of points can book more rooms. They could under the day-by-day system as well.

To say that the new setup "favors" renters implies that they are realizing some benefit that is not available to the rest of the membership. That is not true--and never has been. We are all subject to the same booking guidelines.

I didn't say it was keeping them from doing it, I said this just makes it easier and less costly from a time perspective for *them*. With the new system, they can more quickly lock up multiple weeks. With the old system, they were in the same pool as everyone else, trying to be quick and booking day by day. It was more resource intensive for them as they were trying to make muliple reservations.

What do you think is more inconvenient for someone who is trying to book 20 stays during the same week:

Option-A: Making one call and making 20 reservations under 20 different names for a total of 20 transactions.
Option-B: Calling day by day, making 20 reservations under 20 names for a total of 140 transactions.

I'm thinking the latter is more inconvenient, even if it was just seemingly a formality to extend DBD.

I guess we'll find out in a few months when folks start trying to lock up Thanksgiving Week 2009.

 

[tjkraz]

That is true and nothing that I have stated has been about having guaranteed reservations. That would be a traditional timeshare with an assigned week and is exactly what I don't want to see happen. This change in reservations "seems" to be changing towards the traditional timeshare which Disney wanted to point out that they were not.

You're reading too much into it. DVC is a point-based timeshare and will remain such.

Incidentally, DVC is not the only point-based timeshare system. There are many others which use that model now.

 

[SuzanneSLO]

I just want to throw out that THIS is the exact point where I think some are making a bit of a logic error in evaluating the new system.
All it takes is someone staying LONGER than a week or LESS than five nights (both of which can, do and will continue to happen often) to disrupt that perception. In your case, if a guest books AKV Concierge for Sunday to TUESDAY, he'll be vacating a room just in time for you to arrive on Wednesday. From a booking standpoint, there is no way for anyone to book that room prior to 11 months out on WEDNESDAY.

Based on the current way that MS seems to be implementing this sytem, your logic is not right. Someone with a 7 day reservation from Wed-Tues could book the 8th night (Wed) on Thursday, six days before the person wanting to arrive on Wed. -- Suzanne

 

[dianeschlicht]

I understand that it didn't answer your question, Diane, but I think this concept is critical to understanding that mid-week arrivals won't held to as big of a disadvantage as some people may think.

In your own example, you are arriving at one resort on a Tuesday and departing the following Wednesday. Your departure from OKW frees-up a room for someone else to arrive on Wednesday--in the middle of the week.

I'm sure that the vast majority of reservations have always been driven by Sunday arrivals due to the lower points. But as long as there are people who stay less than 5 days and people who stay longer than 7, mid-week arrivals will absolutely be feasible.

Looking back on our own trips as members, about 40% of the time we have either arrived or departed on a Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday.

I have every reason to believe that people will still be able to book trips that begin on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday, and find that all of the availability has not been taken by people booking Sunday + up to 7 days.

I totally agree with you on how people vacation, because we rarely go weekend to weekend. The reason is because we like to stay 10-12 days, and only use one weekend. The problem I see is that I think people will speculate on the concierge rooms by booking at the beginning of the week even though they aren't arriving until later, and will cancel the part they aren't going to use later. I think this is going to be a big problem for Club level because folks will have the same worry I do...that they wont get a midweek stay if they wait. Now I can't do that because I don't have enough AKV points to do that.

 

[Dean]

But Dean, then you are saying that what other timeshare are doing is the way that all timeshare should do it and I don't buy it - and since I never had an interested in the traditional timeshare I really mean that I didn't buy it. I sat thru DVC's presentation at DL less than a month ago. They stated that they looked at other timeshares and picked out things but then listened to what their guests wanted......and that included flexibility. When other timeshares sell to you you know you're getting a certain week etc. DVC said you got flexibility. I think that saying that you bought a timeshare and you should live with it is a constricted view. If it was just an assumption on my part, well then shame on me.....but a very strong part of DVC's presentation was on the flexibility and that seemed to be confirmed by the members, and I don't consider that an assumption.

It's not a question of DVC having to be like other timeshare but that other timeshares are the way they are for a reason. Basically that "flexibility" comes with a cost in terms of maint fee dollars, increase personnel and orphaned days. It's simply an illusion of flexibility to most members. Look at what you do, not what you can do and I think you'll understand. You bought a timeshare that IMO, wasn't as much different as YOU thought it was. I think a lot of people assume timeshare means fixed week/fixed unit and that is almost never the case anymore but even when it is, there are potential benefits. I owned a 4th of July 3 BR in Aruba that you could lock off into 3 units (two 1 BR and a studio) or a 1 BR and a 2 BR. Even Marriott sells fixed weeks and fixed units for certain resorts like HI and Ski weeks and charges significantly more for them than the floating week/floating unit ownerships.

IMO, it's almost irrelevant what people assumed or even what the sales people sold you own. What one needs to do is assume the worst case scenario and see if DVC works for you then, if not, owning likely isn't a good option. The worst is they could close up shop but short of that a 5 day minimum and shorter or longer home resort window (depending on where you own and want to stay) are likely the largest areas of risk for change.

Well, in this example, I'd say the single owner is a greedy capitalist, and I'd say those who want to make rules to prevent it are busybody socialists! Not sure where that puts me politically (maybe I'm a closet Libertarian?!) The bottom line for me is, I really don't care too much what everybody else does, as long as they aren't thwarting my vacation plans. And I must say, so far I've been thwarted far more by new rule changes than I have been by point renters. In fact, come to think of it, I've been helped along in my vacation plans by point renters. Wonder how that stacks up with others' personal experiences???

I'm there with you up until the question of whether it impact you personally. My view is even if it impacts you or me, it's still OK within the principles I set forth. Plus your post reminds us that for every change, there is a potential positive and negative. Often it's best to just leave well enough alone.

 

[jdg345]

I understand that it didn't answer your question, Diane, but I think this concept is critical to understanding that mid-week arrivals won't held to as big of a disadvantage as some people may think.

In your own example, you are arriving at one resort on a Tuesday and departing the following Wednesday. Your departure from OKW frees-up a room for someone else to arrive on Wednesday--in the middle of the week.

I'm sure that the vast majority of reservations have always been driven by Sunday arrivals due to the lower points. But as long as there are people who stay less than 5 days and people who stay longer than 7, mid-week arrivals will absolutely be feasible.

Looking back on our own trips as members, about 40% of the time we have either arrived or departed on a Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday.

I have every reason to believe that people will still be able to book trips that begin on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday, and find that all of the availability has not been taken by people booking Sunday + up to 7 days.

IMO, those that normally booked for Sunday arrival will just book Friday arrival and adjust later on (points allowing). Those that don't have the points to do so will just have to wait until Sunday to book and hope there is still availability.

This is likely what will happen Thanksgiving week, with folks booking Friday-Friday encompassing Thanksgiving Day and then adjusting their reservation accordingly.

I understand some had success adding day-by-day to their initial 7 day reservation today as well (for a total 8 day stay). Whether it was a mistake or not by MS is still up for grabs; but, if it is to be formally allowed, I can see how Christmas to NYE will be a little harder to get, especially if you can't make a reservation if your arrival day is waitlist only.

 

[Dean]

Did you feel this way because you're familiar with other types of time shares and consider them to be 'the standard' ? Isn't one of DVC's big selling points that they are *NOT* the average time share? Should we just consider that was a bunch of smoke to lure in a couple hundred thousand members only to pull the rug out from under them?

To date, there is no minimum LOS, is there? And the jury is still out as to whether or not this will streamline the reservation system or just create more work as people figure out ways around the new policy.

I addressed this above. IMO, the "flexibility" is smoke and mirrors to a degree. One needs to understand what can happen and consider it before buying. This policy institutes somewhat of a de-facto 1 week LOS IMO.

So ... I can either "risk" not getting NYE next January when I make my reservation by waiting until the true start of my vacation or I can "choose" to book a smaller villa that I might not really want because I don't have enough points to cover all the days between Xmas Day and NY Day in a 1BR. A standard view for 12/25/09 - 1/1/10 is 310 points! Sunday 12/27/09 -1/1/10 is only 160 points for that same 1 BR.

So, for me to book over 12/31/09 (even assuming that they will allow me to cancel 12/25/09 and 12/26/09) I would either have to borrow 110 of my 200 BWV villa points to cover the temporary two days or I would have to be forced to rent a studio instead.

Correct, or you could borrow more points, buy more points or buy an II timeshare and try to trade in. You could also work on private trades with members.

 

[tjkraz]

I didn't say it was keeping them from doing it, I said this just makes it easier and less costly from a time perspective for *them*.

You said that the new system "favors" renters. We are all held to the same guidelines with no favoritism.

With the new system, they can more quickly lock up multiple weeks. With the old system, they were in the same pool as everyone else, trying to be quick and booking day by day. It was more resource intensive for them as they were trying to make muliple reservations.

Everything that you've stated above applies to both renters and to members who own for personal use.

Yes, a renter can secure their reservations quicker. So can you or I. Yes, it took more time for a renter to book under the old system. It also took the rest of us more time.

What do you think is more inconvenient for someone who is trying to book 20 stays during the same week:

Option-A: Making one call and making 20 reservations under 20 different names for a total of 20 transactions.
Option-B: Calling day by day, making 20 reservations under 20 names for a total of 140 transactions.

I'm thinking the latter is more inconvenient, even if it was just seemingly a formality to extend DBD.

If a renter is predisposed to book 20 reservations at a time, I don't think they give a hoot as to whether they need to spend 30 minutes x7 or 30 minutes x1. Anyone who views DVC as a money-making venture isn't going be dissuaded by having to spend a few more minutes on the phone per year.

 

[TisBit]

I still think a lot of people are stuck on this being the worst thing ever and now you won't be able to go for short stays/midweek checkins/etc. Truth is if it doesn't change how the average member actually vacations, the availability will not change, but merely who gets the rooms during sold out times might.

Also seems that they are specifically targeting day by day reservations (as evidenced with the changes to waitlists as reported by DVCNews.com). I think it would have been far worse to eliminate day by day reservations and leaving it as checkout date....which really would not have worked as a first come first served basis. (for the record day by day could be seen as a loophole, because you are not actually reserving on your checkout date...if DVC started telling people that they couldn't link their ressies and might have to move out if they booked day by day, that would have been ugly)

 

[jdg345]

I addressed this above. IMO, the "flexibility" is smoke and mirrors to a degree. One needs to understand what can happen and consider it before buying. This policy institutes somewhat of a de-facto 1 week LOS IMO.

So a plan for the worst mentality? One should expect/plan DVC to become just like every other average timeshare even though one of their biggest marketing points is that they are not?

 

[jdg345]

You said that the new system "favors" renters. We are all held to the same guidelines with no favoritism.

Considering the new system requires less time for them, I would say that yes, it favors them.

Everything that you've stated above applies to both renters and to members who own for personal use.

Except those that own for personal use would be making one reservation, not 20.

Yes, a renter can secure their reservations quicker. So can you or I. Yes, it took more time for a renter to book under the old system. It also took the rest of us more time.

But it took the renter several factors more time under the old system.

If a renter is predisposed to book 20 reservations at a time, I don't think they give a hoot as to whether they need to spend 30 minutes x7 or 30 minutes x1. Anyone who views DVC as a money-making venture isn't going be dissuaded by having to spend a few more minutes on the phone per year.

It's not that they are being dissuaded. I agree that if they want to book those 20 weeks they are going to do it. The point is that since it would take them more time to do so, those that are renting for personal use have some extra time to get in between their reservations. A Renter who doesn't get their complete week is more inclined to bail on the days they did get allowing waitlist fills. Sure, they might leave some WL's open, but the closer they get without filling, the more likely they are to jump. They can't sell a week with holes in it. Those booking for personal use, however, might plug that hole with a stay at another resort.

Much of this is speculation. At the end of the day, depending on what DVC decides to allow (or not), will determine how much of an impact this really has. If they allow people to book day-by-day for stays longer than 7 days, and allow changes/adds/drops of reservations, all we're going to see is more people booking DBD a week in advance and more people initially booking Fri/Sat stays and then dropping those days later on. Which, of course, would favor those with more points as they have more flexibility. In Diane's example, if she had a boatload of points, she could easily book (7) days at OKW and then 3 days later book (7) days at AKV CL. 4-5 Days after she's all booked, she can call back and drop the first (4) days off her AKV reservation netting her exactly what she wanted with less phone calls. Someone with a smaller contract would be at a disadvantage here.

Sure, they can add rules and policies all over the place to try to limit this type of maneuvering, but to that I ask, "Why?" If they would have left things alone, we'd be well and good. It doesn't make sense to make a change that would then require a bunch of additional changes to plug the loopholes it creates. At the end of the day, you're better off leaving things status quo.

 

[jdg345]

I still think a lot of people are stuck on this being the worst thing ever and now you won't be able to go for short stays/midweek checkins/etc. Truth is if it doesn't change how the average member actually vacations, the availability will not change, but merely who gets the rooms during sold out times might.

Also seems that they are specifically targeting day by day reservations (as evidenced with the changes to waitlists as reported by DVCNews.com). I think it would have been far worse to eliminate day by day reservations and leaving it as checkout date....which really would not have worked as a first come first served basis. (for the record day by day could be seen as a loophole, because you are not actually reserving on your checkout date...if DVC started telling people that they couldn't link their ressies and might have to move out if they booked day by day, that would have been ugly)

But it would have been hard for them to justify as they have control of all the inventory. It would have been seen as poor customer service, imo.

DBD was/is simply a way folks tried to maximize their chances of getting their stay. If you waited for checkout, someone checking out a day earlier than you could scoop up the last room. Similar to what could occur with the new policy.

I maintain the the great thing about DBD was that you knew when you called at 9am, there were rooms available for you. What you wanted was a shot.

Now ... not so much ... and it might not have been a shot as many as 7 days prior.

 

[kimberh]

I own at the smaller resorts, plus AKV's. I bought at each one for a desired room or season. I did not buy with the intentions of reserving weekend nights, to get my desired reservation or room location. In, my almost 3 years of owning DVC, I have 100% success with booking excatly what I wanted, when I wanted it. I even have my second Concierge stay booked. I have to say that booking a Fri 7 day stay, to check in on Sun is not my cup of tea. I do not find this appealing at all. Even to give in and keep the Fri Check in, is a waste of points to me. Before we know it, we will have to start booking ON Thursday to get our week, where will it end? This is crazy! Panic will set in. I can see it now. People want what they want, when they want it. How much did we all pay to stay at WDW menaltity will take over? There has to be some safeguards to keep the Gamers from hurting all of us. I have the Traditional Timeshare with a certain week, there is no thought given to it, ever. I have had it since 1989. We have used it all over the Caribbean and US. Never are the rules changed, in all the years.

I really am not happy with the new changes if the gamers take over! Since I don't stay over Weekends, I really wonder how this will affect our vacation travels. I have enjoyed belonging to DVC, but I honestly have enough stress in my life right now. Their communciation skills are terrible!!!! For all the money we all have spent, I feel we were all owed more than this. They have all of our email addresses. The Pixie dust has left the building.

 

[TisBit]

But it would have been hard for them to justify as they have control of all the inventory. It would have been seen as poor customer service, imo.

DBD was/is simply a way folks tried to maximize their chances of getting their stay. If you waited for checkout, someone checking out a day earlier than you could scoop up the last room. Similar to what could occur with the new policy.

I maintain the the great thing about DBD was that you knew when you called at 9am, there were rooms available for you. What you wanted was a shot.

Now ... not so much ... and it might not have been a shot as many as 7 days prior.

Not arguing that point, but you have to look at the affect that DbD had on the system. MS was being inundated with calls precisely at 9 am and members experienced long waits and more employees had to be hired. This is a cost saving measure, plain and simple....that is the only motivation, in the end Disney doesn't care who gets the room, as long as they are all booked.

 

[jdg345]

Not arguing that point, but you have to look at the affect that DbD had on the system. MS was being inundated with calls precisely at 9 am and members experienced long waits and more employees had to be hired. This is a cost saving measure, plain and simple....that is the only motivation, in the end Disney doesn't care who gets the room, as long as they are all booked.

Yup, at the end of the day, this is likely just DVC doing what they think is best for DVC. The issue is that depending on what other rule changes they make (or don't make), it is quite possible that they did not eliminate DBD at all -- they just moved it up a week.

The good news for the longer stay folks, who appear to be a minority, is that it looks like they will still be about to DBD for days 8+ as long as they're staying in the same resort and room category. So it definitely looks like they're going to allow adds -- the major question is are they going to allow deletes, and if they do, will they allow it from the start days? There may be some compromise here where they allow those dates to be dropped, but only after some sort of time expiration. That would limit those playing the game just to that group that has a large point bank to draw from.

Regardless of whether we think this was a good change, or a bad change, I think we can all agree on one thing:

Communication from DVC is severely lacking. It's funny how they have all our email addresses when it's time to sell an add-on or let us know about a special promotion. But when it comes time to advise us of a pretty significant change in the way we book our reservations, suddenly the mass e-mail system doesn't work.

 

[pyrxtc]

the only real change I would like to see to this new 7-day rule is to make it a 10 day rule. I've stayed longer than 7 days for more times than I have stayed shorter stays. If we can do 10 days of meals and a 10 day ticket, then why not 10 days of rooms?

I have never added or subtracted a day to any of my ressies. I hate changing rooms so I really try to get it all in the same room. I don't really understand the better flights or the work won't let me since we check with work ebfore even booking and we pay whatever the airline makes me pay for the day I want to leave. I can't imagine changing my arrival date on a price of the airline. I checked out the prices before I book also. I just learn to deal that some flight prices cost mroe than other days. Also learn that most mid-week flights are cheaper then flying out near/on the weekend.

So, if DVD is reading this, 10 day booking would be great and match all of thier other 10 day rule items.

 

[jdg345]

the only real change I would like to see to this new 7-day rule is to make it a 10 day rule. I've stayed longer than 7 days for more times than I have stayed shorter stays. If we can do 10 days of meals and a 10 day ticket, then why not 10 days of rooms?

I have never added or subtracted a day to any of my ressies. I hate changing rooms so I really try to get it all in the same room. I don't really understand the better flights or the work won't let me since we check with work ebfore even booking and we pay whatever the airline makes me pay for the day I want to leave. I can't imagine changing my arrival date on a price of the airline. I checked out the prices before I book also. I just learn to deal that some flight prices cost mroe than other days. Also learn that most mid-week flights are cheaper then flying out near/on the weekend.

So, if DVD is reading this, 10 day booking would be great and match all of thier other 10 day rule items.

Would allowing DBD for days 8+ be enough? I'm wondering if the reason they did not allow 10 days was because it would make it really easy to box in Christmas and NYE in one shot.

I can see the eBay listings now: Celebrate Christmas and New Years at the Most Magical Place on Earth!