New Four Seasons Timeshare on Disney Property and Value Oriented West Side

[Peter Pirate 2]

And they're destroying what? two of the well regarded championship Golf Courses to put this in? The one Draw that probably would pull in the Four Seasons set? How exactly does this work again?

What a good point Mr. Yoho.

 

[raidermatt]

On that point, they will be rebranding the Osprey Ridge course as a Four Seasons course. What actual changes to the course that will entail is not clear.

So unless another course is added, Disney will go from 5 18-hole courses to 4.

Something I'm curious about along that subject is how accessable the 4S course will be to other resort guests, and how accessable the other resort courses will be to the 4S guests. Who, if anybody, will get preferred tee-times for which courses, pricing, etc.

 

[DancingBear]

Something I'm curious about along that subject is how accessable the 4S course will be to other resort guests, and how accessable the other resort courses will be to the 4S guests. Who, if anybody, will get preferred tee-times for which courses, pricing, etc.

and for that matter, how accessible will the Four Seasons hotel and restaurants be? Will they have their own separate boat service to the MK? For that matter, will they have their own marina?

 

[YoHo]

What a good point Mr. Yoho.

This is a watershed moment. If there were a way to bronze this post, I would.

 

[raidermatt]

and for that matter, how accessible will the Four Seasons hotel and restaurants be? Will they have their own separate boat service to the MK? For that matter, will they have their own marina?

Yes, you're right, the golf questions are really just a subset of the overall question of how the resort will be integrated into WDW.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

I thought you'd see it that way Yoho, lol!

 

[YoHo]

And of course, the free integration of Grand Floridian with the rest of the resort structure is one of the reasons it failed to get a 4 star or 5 star rating. FS would almost have to be isolated in almost all respects to maintain the level of service they are known for. Holy caste system batman.

Somewhere out there, the piece of Landbaron's soul that cared about Walt Disney World is spinning in it's grave.

 

[G8RFAN]

.......FS would almost have to be isolated in almost all respects to maintain the level of service they are known for.....

That's why I said I don't think there will be much synergy between the brands. If they try to fully integrate the FS brand into the resort system, it may drive away the typical FS traveler. However, I also draw from many stays at JW Marriott/Ritz Carlton at Grande Lakes. Although I see naturally see many high end conventioneers, I do see a number of families that stay there for SW. There are still a lot kids activities imbedded in that posh and refinement to make it a nice environment for families. SW is probably not a major draw for 75% of the patrons. Still, no other FS location has any other draw other being a corporate/financial center or a prime sophisticated destination.

 

[raidermatt]

I think the question of how that market will respond to this property is legit, but I'm not convinced how it will turnout either way.

Certainly doing the partnership with 4S reduces Disney's investment and spreads the risk between the two. But at the same time, its almost contradictory. If the 4S crowd is turned off by the Disney kitsch, why will they bother to come to WDW in the first place?

And if there is a segment of the 4S crowd that really does like that stuff and wants to come to WDW, wouldn't they respond better to a Disney branded resort that delivered that same level of service? Sure, at first Disney would have to convince them this is the real deal, but once they do, Disney would have a far more lucrative situation.

In taking a step back, I do want to point out that I'm not really convinced at all that ANY luxury development on WDW property is the best use of capital. But if they are going to do it, then I truly believe Disney should do it. Perhaps they should do it under a different brand or segment name to try to alleviate the initial resistance from the targeted market, but they should still do it themselves.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

To muddy these waters further, it would certainly seem that the homoginization and dismantling of the once very good, if not great, fine dining at Disney is another negative nuance that, it would seem to me, affect the 4S crowd. Sure V& A's is still going strong and Jiko has somehow maintained their reputation and accolades for another year but the facts are that the once unique dining is being melded together (so much so that most menu's are very similar) with very little (if any) creativity allowed the Chef's.

 

[raidermatt]

Ah, but hasn't the number of "Signature Dining" restaurants gone up to 14?

Doesn't that mean the dining has improved?

 

[CanadianGuy]

I can't help but interject a couple of thoughts here..

On the announcement that this thread is about ...

- Unless the Disney lawyers and bean counters have lost it entirely.. the land under the Four Seasons (except the fractional ownership) will be leased by Disney to the JV on a 99 year basis or similar.

I don't think they will be selling the land off to the Four Seasons or to the JV. Because then the Four Seasons or the JV would have voting rights in the RCID. And I'm pretty sure Disney wouldn't want that. Of course that land could drop to OC.. but why on earth would Disney want the JV paying property and other taxes in OC?

And did I miss in the announcement where it said the Western Development hotel/motel would be a Comfort Inn as alluded to earlier in this thread? I can't find reference to that in any of the announcement materials.

Secondly.. as for Disney 'leasing out' attraction space and letting someone else design it and install it as commented on jokingly earlier in this thread. Already been done. Disney has put itself in precarious places for much less money in the past.. when they really needed the money.. back in the 50's .. when the bankers from BofA were running scared.

(Reference : Today's Mouse Matters - http://www.wdwinfo.com/MouseMatters/mousematters35.htm#hm-mousematters)

- Monsanto's Hall of Chemistry and the House of the Future.
- Crane's Bathroom of Tomorrow,
- Kaiser's Hall of Aluminum Fame
- Dutch Boy Paints' Color Gallery

Those were not attractions in my book. They were not 'sponsored' by .. They were full-on ads .. designed and installed by the sponsor .. and masquerading as attractions. Disney's 'Worlds Fair' concept in action I guess. Strangely enough, those kinds of 'attractions' pretty much came to an end around the time of Walt's death. Coincidence to be sure.. but..

If Disney parks did those kinds of things today.. the howls would go out from the roof-tops. Wasn't it bad enough they put McD's fries in AK? Altho I admit.. I bought them and enjoyed 'em anyway.

While Disney may be doing LOTS of things wrong in various places (I'm hardly qualified to judge).. one thing they have done right in my opinion -- is draw the line better on sponsorships and other 'brands' presence in the world.

Anyways.. Back to your spirited discussion already in progress.

Knox

 

[DancingBear]

As I've mentioned repeatedly, whether the land is long-term leased or sold outright doesn't matter; the point is that it's no longer available to be something different.

I believe Comfort Inn was just thrown in as illustrative of what's planned (and sounds like an accurate example).

 

[DisneyKidds]

I don't think they will be selling the land off to the Four Seasons or to the JV. Because then the Four Seasons or the JV would have voting rights in the RCID. And I'm pretty sure Disney wouldn't want that. Of course that land could drop to OC.. but why on earth would Disney want the JV paying property and other taxes in OC?

Apparently some portion (or all?) of the land for the Four Seasons resort complex will be de-annexed from the RCID.

Disney Public Affairs Vice President Bill Warren explained the haste behind the announcement was driven by the need to begin de-annexation of the planned single-family homes. "We know there's not as much detail as you are used to," Warren told the business writers group, "however we felt an obligation to inform our local government partners about our plans."

The homes are planned within the golf community that will consist of the rebranded Four Seasons golf course, Four Seasons (read: not DVC) fractional ownership homes, and one would presume the centerpiece Four Seasons hotel. I don't see how they can do anything but de-annex the entire 900 acres. Out of RCID and then out of Disney's control. You are right, Disney isn't going to want to have anything of theirs drop to Orange County, subjecting Disney to Orange County taxes. The handwriting is there. Off the land goes to Four Seasons and Disney doesn't have to worry about any of that. Also, some people keep referring to the planned Four Seasons Golf Community as a Joint Venture. Those are legal entities, and I haven't see any reference to such a thing in any of the media reports. It would be reasonable to assume that Disney is going to let Four Seasons develop the property, which no longer falls within RCID, deal with the tax issues, and Disney will take a slice of their profits. I really don't see a whole lot that is "Joint" about what has been announced.

 

[Another Voice]

Because then the Four Seasons or the JV would have voting rights in the RCID.

In the announcement about the project Disney stated they had to release the plans early because they are de-annexing the land from RCID and turning control over to Orange County. The project also includes full and partial ownership vacation homes. The general buzz about the projsect (which hasn't been announced as the final details are being worked out) conjectures that Disney will sell the land to Four Seasons; they in turn will finance the development of their resort by subdividing the land to time share developers and home builders.

It's similar to deals that Jay Rasulo engineered when selling off large chunks of Disneyland Paris to other developers.

P.S. - Disney has never said anything about a joint venture, the corporate grapevine knows nothing of a joint venture. From Disney's perspective this is a straight land deal which will remover 300+ acres from Walt Disney World and turn it over to an outside company.

 

[DancingBear]

Just want to point out here again that Disney pays Orange County property taxes. Here's the assessment and tax bill for the Poly ($1.5 million/year):

http://www.octaxcol.com/dev/result.asp?txtAccountID=112427000000007
http://www.ocpafl.org/pls/webappI/g..._1=on&DI_2=on&DI_3=on&DI_4=on&DI_5=on&DI_6=on

And here's assessments on the Bonnet Creek Golf Course:

http://www.ocpafl.org/pls/webappI/g..._1=on&DI_2=on&DI_3=on&DI_4=on&DI_5=on&DI_6=on
http://www.ocpafl.org/pls/webappI/g..._1=on&DI_2=on&DI_3=on&DI_4=on&DI_5=on&DI_6=on

 

[raidermatt]

I'm sure the voting rights are the primary issue.

Those were not attractions in my book. They were not 'sponsored' by .. They were full-on ads .. designed and installed by the sponsor .. and masquerading as attractions. Disney's 'Worlds Fair' concept in action I guess. Strangely enough, those kinds of 'attractions' pretty much came to an end around the time of Walt's death. Coincidence to be sure.. but..

This is very similar to the argument that DCA, MGM and AK were not built any differently than DL. Open small and build out.

Of course it ignores the fact that DL opened small because there just wasn't any more capital. As you said, the investors were nervous, and rightly so.

The types of deals you mention ended as Disney gained some level of stability financially, and were able to buy out investors like ABC.

The column you reference even notes why the "adtractions" were done:

Unfortunately, Disney's other plans for Tomorrowland were put on the back burner as bills piled high for the park's operation. Corporate America chipped in with their dough, but they wanted something in return: exhibition space.

The circumstances today are much different. Disney is not doing this because of bills piling up. They have the flexibility to do what's right for the long term. Had yesterday's Disney had the capital to forget these adtractions, they would have. Their desired plans, as stated in the article, simply had to wait.

 

[CanadianGuy]

Good points all.. Thanks of the clarifications.

Of course it's hard to know.. but the way I read that.. the single family dwellings are the only thing being de-annexed. Which makes sense to me from a legal and taxation perspective.

If they didn't do that.. Disney would have to tax the owners of the homes.. and then turn the monies over to OC and then the voting rights issues previously mentioned.

But the hotel.. I can't see them selling the whole she-bang landwise. I certainly hope they don't. If they do -- they're even more confused than previous actions have indicated.

Personally, I think some of those single family homes will be sold in such a fashion that a single person may own all of a single home. I don't think they will all be fractionals. I think there's enough people with enough money and desire.. to buy a home 'on-property' as it were.

I foresee it much like the Four Seasons property in Palm Springs. They have fractionals but you can outright purchase a home adjacent to the Four Seasons hotel/resort golf course.

Best use of 300 acres? Probably not. Worst? I can think of worse... LOTS worse for sure.

As for the Western Development... I guess I just sorta presumed we were getting more Disney value accommodations but I guess in re-reading the press release -- it's not really clear.

When I was just down to Pop Century, the last day I was there .. a couple of construction looking trucks rumbled over to the Legendary Years side of the resort. They may have just been parking there.. But maybe not.

Maybe they ACTUALLY intend to finish that. I have some pictures I gotta d/l from the camera, one of the room doors is open and you can see the interior of the unfinished buildings is completely NOT finished. So they can build them out however they please if they ever choose to.

Knox

 

[raidermatt]

Oh, and no, Comfort Inn has not been named specifically, but Disney is using terms like "value conscious", so it would follow that there will be chains like that coming in. Anything else would be competing directly with what Disney already has.


My guess is you are right, they will only sell the vacation home portion of the land (though I certainly could be wrong). And I agree that if they are going to sell the land they have to de-annex it, but that's the whole point, they really shoudn't be selling anything.

As DB said, even if they lease the rest of it, it's going to be pretty darn permanent.

I know they COULD put things in that are much worse, but that's not really relevant to talking about what they should do. In other words, if we are going to say this is good because if Disney did it they'd screw it up, why do we care anymore about Disney at all? There'd be nothing special about them.

And maybe there's not. But that aside, if we do think Disney is capable of special things (and we must if we bother to frequent boards like this), don't we have to assume they don't have so few ideas left that they really think just letting somebody else do it is the best option?

 

[DisneyKidds]

The last two posts deserve thoughtful replies that I can't manage as I must drop down to NYC for a meeting--but I will get back to them.

That's one heck of a looooong meeting.