New DVC - Hawaii ??

[Horace Horsecollar]

We posted the original post a few years ago and it's now reality, well, we heard that the cruise ship is going to be docked at the Ko Olina Marina, despite the rumors it's not. As for reflagging the ship to the USA, minor issue, Disney can and will pay minium wages. Now I'm not for cheap wages, but Hawaii is part of a larger dream and a few extra buck's for a very expencive trip is chump change.

I think this is just speculation or wishful thinking. There has been no such announcement. It takes far more to be a U.S.-flagged vessel than a willingness to pay U.S. minimum wage to the crew.

Also, Ko Olina Marina at the Ko Olina Resort is harbor for small pleasure boats. Kalaeloa Harbor (Barbers Point Harbor), on the other side of Ko Olina Marina can handle larger ships, but does not currently have a passenger terminal.

 

[DC7800]

For a few seconds there...just for a few seconds...I actually thought that Another Voice had returned.

Then I saw the year 2006.

 

[Debbie & Bill]

I think this is just speculation or wishful thinking. There has been no such announcement. It takes far more to be a U.S.-flagged vessel than a willingness to pay U.S. minimum wage to the crew.

Also, Ko Olina Marina at the Ko Olina Resort is harbor for small pleasure boats. Kalaeloa Harbor (Barbers Point Harbor), on the other side of Ko Olina Marina can handle larger ships, but does not currently have a passenger terminal.

Good to talk about this again. We've been going to Hawaii for 30 years and have many local friends there. The inside track is the Jeff Stone owner Ko Olina marina and Ko Olina itself has the approval for a cruise terminal, you can google that. We own at the Marriott Ko Olina and watch the huge coal ships and barges come and go all the time, but if you google with measurments the Florida terminal and check Ko Olina you'll find plenty of room for a ship docked at the empty end of the harbor and use the existing road to that harbor. Also the word from many employees from the various employers there is it's a done deal, yes might take some time but Ko Olina has been in development for 20 years and it's a work in progress. As for reflagging the ship, don't see that as a problem, it's all about the jobs and Hawaii is hurting. Yes many other cruise line failed there, so I guess caution will be huge, but my thought is that more DVC's on the other islands are in the que, it's all California and Japans play ground and most everyones dream for a vacation desitnation. Buta year round cruise in Hawaii might be ruff and better if when the kids are out of school. Be fun to watch this one too

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

The inside track is the Jeff Stone owner Ko Olina marina and Ko Olina itself has the approval for a cruise terminal, you can google that.

Yes, Jeff Stone wants a cruise terminal at Kalaeloa Harbor, but nobody wants to pay for it -- not Jeff Stone, not the state of Hawaii, and not a cruise line.

We own at the Marriott Ko Olina and watch the huge coal ships and barges come and go all the time, but if you google with measurments the Florida terminal and check Ko Olina you'll find plenty of room for a ship docked at the empty end of the harbor and use the existing road to that harbor.

Again, that's Kalaeloa Harbor, not Ko Olina Marina. And it takes more than a cargo dock to take care of passengers.

Buta year round cruise in Hawaii might be ruff and better if when the kids are out of school. Be fun to watch this one too

The real story is that Disney appears to have a plan for the Disney Wonder's repositioning cruises between Los Angeles and Vancouver (one in May and one in September) to call on Honolulu and several other Hawaiian ports in the future.

There was a long discussion about this subject in the following thread, including the legal impediments to Hawaii-based cruises and one-way cruises from the U.S. mainland.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2487253

 

[Debbie & Bill]

Yes, Jeff Stone wants a cruise terminal at Kalaeloa Harbor, but nobody wants to pay for it -- not Jeff Stone, not the state of Hawaii, and not a cruise line.


Again, that's Kalaeloa Harbor, not Ko Olina Marina. And it takes more than a cargo dock to take care of passengers.


The real story is that Disney appears to have a plan for the Disney Wonder's repositioning cruises between Los Angeles and Vancouver (one in May and one in September) to call on Honolulu and several other Hawaiian ports in the future.

There was a long discussion about this subject in the following thread, including the legal impediments to Hawaii-based cruises and one-way cruises from the U.S. mainland.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2487253

Not looking to mitigate the trivial, it's going to be docked at Ko Olina Resort that’s the development and area's name.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

Not looking to mitigate the trivial, it's going to be docked at Ko Olina Resort that’s the development and area's name.

Although Kalaeloa Harbor is not part of the Ko Olina Resort and Marina, I agree that it's very close. The harbor and the marina even share the same ingress from the ocean.

However, I don't believe that a Disney Cruise Line ship based at Kalaeloa Harbor is a done deal, or that it would be easy to deal with the U.S. registration and labor law issues, or that Disney would even want to try something that's been a failure for other cruise lines.

Earlier, you wrote, "The inside track is the Jeff Stone owner Ko Olina marina and Ko Olina itself has the approval for a cruise terminal, you can google that."

If it's so easy to Google the "approval for a cruise terminal" at Ko Olina, please post one or more links that confirm this approval. When does construction begin?

 

[Debbie & Bill]

Although Kalaeloa Harbor is not part of the Ko Olina Resort and Marina, I agree that it's very close. The harbor and the marina even share the same ingress from the ocean.

However, I don't believe that a Disney Cruise Line ship based at Kalaeloa Harbor is a done deal, or that it would be easy to deal with the U.S. registration and labor law issues, or that Disney would even want to try something that's been a failure for other cruise lines.

Earlier, you wrote, "The inside track is the Jeff Stone owner Ko Olina marina and Ko Olina itself has the approval for a cruise terminal, you can google that."

If it's so easy to Google the "approval for a cruise terminal" at Ko Olina, please post one or more links that confirm this approval. When does construction begin?

Here's your link http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2003/03/03/story6.html

Ko Olina Resort has been in planning for a long time, with JAL airlines the developer, after JAL's bankruptcy at Ko Olina it forfited the hotel and it was rebranded the JW Marriott and is now owned by Jeff Stone, many plans have came and gone at Ko Olina ie: Ritz Carlton, Hyatt and more. But after Marriott built it's large timeshare and Centex built it's luxuary condo's then Disney announce and built. This article goes back but clearly shows that the harbor has been approved for a cruise terminal and it's chump change for Disney and all to Hawaii's benifit to do what ever it takes. Another note Disney paid about 3x more and for less land then Marriott, and Disney is shaing one laggon with three other's. It's all part of the larger plan, the development crusies hotels and timeshare along with dinning and activities, with development costs meaning not to much. Someone is going to pay a $100 bucks for a few hats, it's all a huge money maker and something really great too.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

Here's your link http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2003/03/03/story6.html

There's absolutely nothing in the article -- which is from 2003 -- about "approval for a cruise terminal" at Ko Olina. The closest thing is this part of the article:

In 2001, the state Department of Transportation authorized use of the existing pier for cruise ships at the request of Ko Olina developers, but said it cannot justify construction of a pier or ferry terminal.

"At this time, the D.O.T. cannot commit to constructing a pier or ferry terminal [at Kalaeloa harbor] due to limited use, other statewide priority expenditures for the cruise industry and other much-needed cargo-related improvements," Brian Minaai, then state transportation director, wrote in May 2001. "However, to assist you with your vision, we are agreeable to the interim use of pier P-7 for weekly discharge of passengers beginning in 2003 should you receive formal commitment from cruise line officials to service [Kalaeloa harbor]."
​

And this paragraph:

Until the cruise ships show interest, the state doesn't plan to make any improvements to the harbor. The pier, which is 720 feet long, can accommodate only the smaller boats. Bigger vessels such as the Norwegian Star would need either extra tug assistance from port pilots or anchor offshore and tender passengers ashore.​

The current pier is too small for the Disney Wonder or Disney Magic, and much too small for the two new DCL ships.

None of the DCL ships were built in a U.S. shipyard, which is a requirement for a U.S.-flagged vessels. NCL was able to get the rules bent because they took over the failed Project America new-builds, one of which is now the U.S.-flagged Pride of America.

 

[Debbie & Bill]

There's absolutely nothing in the article -- which is from 2003 -- about "approval for a cruise terminal" at Ko Olina. The closest thing is this part of the article:

In 2001, the state Department of Transportation authorized use of the existing pier for cruise ships at the request of Ko Olina developers, but said it cannot justify construction of a pier or ferry terminal.

"At this time, the D.O.T. cannot commit to constructing a pier or ferry terminal [at Kalaeloa harbor] due to limited use, other statewide priority expenditures for the cruise industry and other much-needed cargo-related improvements," Brian Minaai, then state transportation director, wrote in May 2001. "However, to assist you with your vision, we are agreeable to the interim use of pier P-7 for weekly discharge of passengers beginning in 2003 should you receive formal commitment from cruise line officials to service [Kalaeloa harbor]."
​

And this paragraph:

Until the cruise ships show interest, the state doesn't plan to make any improvements to the harbor. The pier, which is 720 feet long, can accommodate only the smaller boats. Bigger vessels such as the Norwegian Star would need either extra tug assistance from port pilots or anchor offshore and tender passengers ashore.​

The current pier is too small for the Disney Wonder or Disney Magic, and much too small for the two new DCL ships.

None of the DCL ships were built in a U.S. shipyard, which is a requirement for a U.S.-flagged vessels. NCL was able to get the rules bent because they took over the failed Project America new-builds, one of which is now the U.S.-flagged Pride of America.

Hey Pal, Can't help you much more. You'll see it when it's built, just like the New DVC at Ko Olina.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

Hey Pal, Can't help you much more. You'll see it when it's built, just like the New DVC at Ko Olina.

Building a new Disney ship in a U.S. shipyard?

 

[KINGBOBOFTHENORTH]

As Horace Horsecollar has pointed out, Disney does not have any ships flying the U.S. flag. That makes it impossible for Disney to operate a ship within Hawaii without it making a stop at at least one foreign port during that cruise. NCL America is the only major cruise line with a U.S. flagged ship and it's had a number of problems with its operation in the intra-Hawaii market, particularly the requirement to use primarily (and costly) U.S. labor. Thus, the only thing Disney could do would be to operate one way cruises from the mainland to Hawaii and back from Hawaii. To do this, the cruise would have to originate or end in a foreign port such as Ensenada or Vancouver. I just don't think this is going to happen either.

BobK/Orlando

 

[Debbie & Bill]

As Horace Horsecollar has pointed out, Disney does not have any ships flying the U.S. flag. That makes it impossible for Disney to operate a ship within Hawaii without it making a stop at at least one foreign port during that cruise. NCL America is the only major cruise line with a U.S. flagged ship and it's had a number of problems with its operation in the intra-Hawaii market, particularly the requirement to use primarily (and costly) U.S. labor. Thus, the only thing Disney could do would be to operate one way cruises from the mainland to Hawaii and back from Hawaii. To do this, the cruise would have to originate or end in a foreign port such as Ensenada or Vancouver. I just don't think this is going to happen either.

BobK/Orlando

Time will tell, my friends in Hawaii are quite sure that Disney has plans for a ship located there Honolulu harbor first as test runs as you said after or on the way someware else. However my friends who live and work at Ko Olina Resort and near by claim something is in the works to have the ship cruise from the very near harbor at Ko Olina. This point it's only a rumor nobody sits on the board of directors but seems doable once Disney determins a profit can be had. My thought, Hawaii is best traveled by land, but those with kids might find just like all the other cruise routes a great vacation. My question would be, can a ship be reflaged for six months or so.

 

[LSZFagan]

We can't wait to go to the new Hawaii resort once it opens!!!

 

[Donut23]

Sorry folks, the Jones Act of 1917 applies to any vessels in US Waters who carry guests for hire. This legislation was originally written to protect US shipbuilders and craftsmen.

Any vessel (even your 10 foot boston whaler) which carries guests for hire must adhere to certain restrictions......including the vessel must be constructed in US waters, it must adhere to certain safety construction requirements (these include things like water-tight bulkheads even in public area....not condusive to beautiful cruiseship design). The US hulls must then be inspected each year for stability.

There is only one way to receive a waiver from a hull being built outside of the United States and that is actually an act of Congress. As God is my witness.....it's true - can you imagine how long it would take for them to decide THIS!

Oh yes, there is one other way (used often in my yacht captain days for sailing yachts for example). The Captain can have the guests sign responsibility as "master of the vessel" and be legally responsible for it's operation, then hire the captain and crew as their employees to actually operate the vessel.....basically turning it into a bareboat charter (like the Moorings where you rent sailboats).

If changing a foreign flag cruiseship were possible....it would have been done by now by other cruiselines and it doesn't matter how many millions of dollars Disney waves around.

As others have said, NCL tried this with a US hull which was permanently based in Hawaii. The sailings failed to be successful and they removed the ship from permanent base in Hawaii.

In years past, more cruiselines have stopped at Hawaii while repositioning to and from Alaska in spring and fall but as others have said, the must begin or end their sailing in a foreign port. Guests were not too overwhelmed with the itineraries because of the number of days at sea required to actually sail to Hawaii vs. the number of days you spent sailing in the beautiful Hawaiian islands. Many cruiselines have cutback these sailings because of a downturn in interest.

Disney may be considering sailings TO and FROM Hawaii, but unless they are planning to build a cruiseship in the US, they will not have a permanant home in Hawaii.

Besides....it doesn't make $$$$ sense and we all know Disney is ALL about separating us from as much $$$$$ as possible.

 

[KINGBOBOFTHENORTH]

There is only one way to receive a waiver from a hull being built outside of the United States and that is actually an act of Congress.

Norwegian Cruise Line got some very favorable legislation when they took over the hull of the ship that became Pride of America, towed it to Germany and had the rest of the cruise ship constructed. The shipyard in the U.S. that had been constructing it had gone bankrupt.

As part of that same legislation, another cruise ship under construction in Germany was allowed to be flagged in the U.S. and became Pride of Hawaii. A third NCL ship, Norwegian Sky, was also reflagged and became Pride of Aloha.

The price of American labor, the lack of much of an American work ethic to work the long hours at low pay that cruise lines generally offer, doomed the plan to operate three ships in Hawaii under the NCL America brand. Pride of Hawaii was reflagged as Bahamian and the named changed to Norwegian Jade while Pride of Aloha was also reflagged as Bahamian and the name returned back to Norwegian Sky. Only Pride of America remains American-flagged in Honolulu, offering 7-night cruises within the islands without the need to stop at a foreign port.

As others have said, NCL tried this with a US hull which was permanently based in Hawaii. The sailings failed to be successful and they removed the ship from permanent base in Hawaii.

As noted above, Pride of America is still American-flagged and operating in Hawaii.

My question would be, can a ship be reflaged for six months or so.

As a practical matter, no. It would take an act of Congress to get it reflagged to an American ship. Disney likely has enough clout to get that type of legislation passed but it would have to be a permanent change. Having an American-flagged ship does offer some benefits; for instance when not operating within Hawaii it could operate within Alaska or it could operate up and down the west coast (or east coast) offering one way trips from various American cities, without any foreign port requirement. Passengers could get on in New York, visit Philly, Baltimore, Norfolk and Charleston and end in Port Canaveral, something foreign-flagged ships can't legally do. Disney is able to charge far higher fares than other cruise lines and thus could possibly operate such a venture profitably, something NCL has struggled with.

BobK/Orlando

 

[Debbie & Bill]

Norwegian Cruise Line got some very favorable legislation when they took over the hull of the ship that became Pride of America, towed it to Germany and had the rest of the cruise ship constructed. The shipyard in the U.S. that had been constructing it had gone bankrupt.

As part of that same legislation, another cruise ship under construction in Germany was allowed to be flagged in the U.S. and became Pride of Hawaii. A third NCL ship, Norwegian Sky, was also reflagged and became Pride of Aloha.

The price of American labor, the lack of much of an American work ethic to work the long hours at low pay that cruise lines generally offer, doomed the plan to operate three ships in Hawaii under the NCL America brand. Pride of Hawaii was reflagged as Bahamian and the named changed to Norwegian Jade while Pride of Aloha was also reflagged as Bahamian and the name returned back to Norwegian Sky. Only Pride of America remains American-flagged in Honolulu, offering 7-night cruises within the islands without the need to stop at a foreign port.



As noted above, Pride of America is still American-flagged and operating in Hawaii.



As a practical matter, no. It would take an act of Congress to get it reflagged to an American ship. Disney likely has enough clout to get that type of legislation passed but it would have to be a permanent change. Having an American-flagged ship does offer some benefits; for instance when not operating within Hawaii it could operate within Alaska or it could operate up and down the west coast (or east coast) offering one way trips from various American cities, without any foreign port requirement. Passengers could get on in New York, visit Philly, Baltimore, Norfolk and Charleston and end in Port Canaveral, something foreign-flagged ships can't legally do. Disney is able to charge far higher fares than other cruise lines and thus could possibly operate such a venture profitably, something NCL has struggled with.

BobK/Orlando

Great post, thanks for all the information. Be interesting to watch this play out. Seems in todays times the law could or should be changed, we can't even make a toy boat, forget a real ship.

 

[Donut23]

First of all, it makes less than zero $$$$$$ sense for disney (or anybody) to operate a US flag vessel. Payroll alone (something Disney LOVES to cut as demonstrated in the last 24 months) is a killer. Are you kidding me! They have to pay minimum wage.....green cards......everything disney hates and potential profits far below the $$ double-digit requirement fellow castmember Bob and stockholders require. Obviously you are not familiar with the salaries of cruise ship staff....especially those who work for gratuities.....they are often paid as little as $50 p/week because wages are based on the gratuities they receive. It's not "poor work ethic"......in business...the is the "largest controllable expense - payroll" which is an immediate killer on US flag vessels. Besides, most Americans have no interest in working 7 days a week....long hours each day.....for 6 - 8 months at a time. (although Disney ships DO have the most comfortable accommodations for their cruise staff.)

Someone from India, for example, can work for Disney and be paid $50 p/week and gratuities and earn enough $$$ to be considered wealthy and retire to his village in a few years. Minimum wage for US employees wouldn't pay for healthcare when they leave Disney's employ.

Second, plenty of ships now embark from Boston, NYC, Baltimore, Norfolk, Charleston. From here the ships travel to POPLULAR destinations. East coast cruises, for example, simply are not popular enough to fill cruise ships week after week. Send them to Bermuda....and that's another story! If US only cruises truly made enough $$$ for a cruiseline to develop an itinerary....other cruiselines would have done so by now. Disney is not really an innovator in the cruise industry.

Alaska cruises. Well, it will be many-many-many years before Disney will have the rights to enter any of the most popular glacier destinations and cruising waters which are rightfully restricted to a limited number of vessels p/day. They will NEVER catch the leaders in Alaska - Princess and Holland America, which have been in Alaska for nearly a century. DH and were married on the Radiance of the Seas in Juneau and have cruised in Alaska 5 times. If other ships are full....Disney's itineraries will be OK.....but a truly saavy Alaska visitor will immediately see their sailings are far too limited as far as Alaska sailing is concerned.......just another example of Disney NOT having the clout in the cruise industry to truly compete. Besides, there are ships already sailing from Seattle with a port-of call stop in Canada. These itineraries are popular because you can avoid the double-hit of air taxes flying into Vancouver (less expensive airfare)......and do the "milk run" up to Ketchikan, Juneau and Skagway and back.

If you like the Disney cruising experience.....their Alaska sailings are OK....if you TRULY want to discover Alaska and all it's magesty...look elsewhere. Besides...you will see and do more for less $$$ on other cruiselines.....and in the case of the Radiance class......have ships built for beauty of Alaska with the most glass in public areas of any ship sailing there.

Disney is just a peanut in the cruise industry. You want to talk about clout and powerhouses in the cruise biz to get things done......talk about the $$$$$$ and collection of Carnival ships which include Windstar, Cunard, Princess.....etc. or Royal Caribbean...even NCL.

Disney has 2 new ships coming out which are very cool.....but you want to talk state of the art, ships filled with just about everything exciting, new and innovative in the cruise industry.....a water slide over the ocean isn't it. Look at the Oasis of the Seas if you TRULY want innovative. Disney is OK for those who love sailing with Disney......innovative, state of the art? They are truly beautiful ships, but obviously there are others way ahead of Disney. I have sailed on Disney (castmember rates make it a GREAT - we have sailed at the last minute more than once for next to nothing in lovely category 3or 4's), their ships are truly beautiful....but cruiseline leader? not so much.

Bottom line, we have to remember that Disney has only 2 ships.....4 before too long. It's easy for them to have high occupancy with only 4 ships......wait until they embark 17 ships each week.....or however many now fly the Carnival flag (including their separately branded cruiselines). These cruiselines MUST offer the best and most innovative because they have so many beds to fill.

I remember we were horrified when Carnival purchased Cunard ----- what will happen to the quality of the product offered on Cunard we asked? Well, the truly deep pockets of Carnival have saved more than one cruisline and Cunard has thrived.

Sorry, but all of Disney's $$$ is still just chump change in the cruise biz.

You must remember, Disney now is all about profit and stockholders....not their guests. 6% profit in 2009 and the recession was a gross failure - ask some of Disney's divisions. They will not waste their time with destinations which will not give them the double-digit return they require.....and this includes the expense of turning a ship into a US flag.

US flag....waste of $$$ for Disney. They aren't stupid enough to follow other cruiselines into markets which have been $$$ failures which is a GOOD thing over the long term. It will keep Disneys 4 little ships very busy in more popular destinations.

 

[KINGBOBOFTHENORTH]

Seems in today's times the law could or should be changed, we can't even make a toy boat, forget a real ship.

Cruise lines follow the same basic laws as the airlines. Only airlines that fly the U.S. flag can transport passengers between American cities. One can't fly British Airways or Bahamasair between U.S. airports. That is reserved only for our airlines complying with American laws. Cruise lines have chosen to operate under foreign flags in order to operate cheaply. By doing so, they give up the right to operate between American ports without stopping at foreign ports. Hawaii is an example where it's very, very difficult to include a foreign port. Prior to NCL America, NCL did it by operating 10-night cruises that included a stop in the Republic of Kiribati.

First of all, it makes less than zero $$$$$$ sense for disney (or anybody) to operate a US flag vessel.

And that's why it is not going to happen. Disney is not going to operate a ship from Ko Olina or Honolulu except perhaps as a once in awhile specialty cruise to/from the west coast.

BobK/Orlando

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

Cruise lines follow the same basic laws as the airlines. Only airlines that fly the U.S. flag can transport passengers between American cities. One can't fly British Airways or Bahamasair between U.S. airports. That is reserved only for our airlines complying with American laws.

That's a good way of putting it.

However, when it comes to ships, there's also the issue of where the ship was built. An American-flagged ship must be an American-built ship. (Yes, as noted in this thread, NCL was able to get around this through a Federal law passed in connection with NCL's purchase of the incomplete American-built Project America ships after the bankruptcy of American Classic Voyages, but this was special case.)

At least American-flagged air carriers such as United Airlines can operate aircraft built elsewhere in the world.

My question would be, can a ship be reflaged for six months or so.

The answer is no, at least when it comes to American registration.

Even if DCL wanted to fire the existing crew of one of their ships, hire and train a new, temporary crew consisting entirely of American citizens and legal aliens with green cards, then fire those people after 6 months, and then rehire an international crew, there would still be the issue of the ship itself.

Anybody who expects to see an existing DCL ship based at Kalaeloa Harbor (near Ko Olina) offering intra-Hawaii cruises will be disappointed.

 

[KYMickey]

Seems in todays times the law could or should be changed, we can't even make a toy boat, forget a real ship.

Why do you say this? We seem to a pretty good job at aircraft carriers and other naval vessels. The reason all of the major cruise ships are built overseas is because the cost not capability and quality.