New DVC - Hawaii ??

[Debbie & Bill]

New DVC Resort? In Hawaii on the Island of Oahu in Ko Olina are four fantastic lagoons perfect for family safety and a very beautiful ocean front location. Disney is offering the Adventure Hawaii trip at this location now and have the guest staying at the JW Marriott situated on Lagoon number one. This area is all currently being developed and land is available. The Marriott Vacation Club is in the third stage of a four stage development and sales are very good. We own DVC and also bought into the MVC at Ko Olina.

What this area offers is it's all new high end resorts in the development stages and it's secluded and very safe for children, no sharks and has the best weather in all the islands. Also by the Lagoons is a harbor that could be redeveloped to dock a Disney Cruise Line. This would be our bet and perfect for DVC if they could afford put a deal together. Aloha

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

New DVC Resort? In Hawaii on the Island of Oahu in Ko Olina are four fantastic lagoons perfect for family safety and a very beautiful ocean front location.

Take a look at these two threads for some thoughts about a DVC resort at Ko Olina on Oahu.

• Could this be the New DVC Resort in Hawaii?
  
• Future Offsite DVC Properties & Exchange Opportunities

After I posted the information about the proposed spectacular interactive aquarium at Ko Olina — which was in some ways more like Discovery Cove than like a traditional aquarium — the developer scaled back the plans to be more conventional. Also, as far as I know, the Grand Ko Olina still hasn't broken ground. Finally, the Grand Wailea Resort Hotel & Spa — the Grand Ko Olina's sister property on Maui — is now managed by Hilton Hotels Corp. under Hilton's Waldorf-Astoria Collection brand. These changes reduce the chance that my speculation in my post, "Could this be the New DVC Resort in Hawaii?" will ever become a reality.

However, I still think that Disney Vacation Club is a valuable brand, and that Disney can work with other developers to expand the DVC presence while minimizing risk and capital outlays.

And I agree that Ko Olina would be the ideal location for the first DVC resort in Hawaii.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

Also by the Lagoons is a harbor that could be redeveloped to dock a Disney Cruise Line.

The impediment to operating a DCL cruise ship out of a Hawaiian port is a United States law from 1886 — the Passenger Services Act. It's sometimes mistakenly referred to as the Jones Act. (The Passenger Services Act applies specifically to passenger ships, while the Jones Act deals with sailors' rights.)

DCL's ships are foreign-flagged. The Passenger Services Act requires foreign ships to call on at least one foreign port when operating out of a US port. That's hard to do on a Hawaii-based cruise. The closest foreign destination, Fanning Island, is around a thousand nautical miles from Honolulu. Norwegian Cruise Line (NCL) has an exclusive agreement with the government of Kiribati, which governs Fanning Island.

NCL America, a part NCL, is the only cruise line operating cruises solely within the Hawaiian Islands. NLC America recently took delivery of its third ship. The three ships were all built in Europe, although the hull of one of them was built in United States. NCL was able to get legislation passed to operate foreign-built vessels under the flag of the United States. It's not just a simple matter of flying a different flag and mailing in a registration fee. The ships require U.S. officers and labor and come under U.S. labor laws. No other cruise line — not even the biggies like Carnival and Royal Caribbean — has tried to copy NCL.

DCL could build a third ship and jump through the same hoops as NCL. But Disney has even been unwilling to invest in a third DCL ship for Florida, even though the DCL terminal at Port Canaveral and Castaway Cay (Disney's private island) are underused.

I wouldn't expect a DCL ship home-ported at Ko Olina or anywhere else in Hawaii.

 

[Debbie & Bill]

Horace Horsecollar, Really enjoyed your post and reading your past thoughts about Ko Olina. We've been going to Hawaii for twenty five years every year and are very familiar with all the islands and in our opinion Ko Olina is the best fit by far. Other areas like Turtle Bay are very nice but it's developed and on the North Shore of Oahu weather and winter waves are a problem as well as distance to other attractions.

We've been waiting for DVC to announce Hawaii for so long it's a perfect fit for the Californians and Canadians as home resorts as well as the Japanese who all frequent the Island's quite often. Not that many East Coast people go to Hawaii, long and expensive flights the complaint. So with cheaper and shorter flights to Orlando that's the east coast Hawaii staying at the Polynesian. But when a Hawaiian Disney Cruise ( second party NCL) and Vacation is factored in packaged with air and other perks! few day stay at Disney Land Ca. It might sound like a plan!

Nice to read your thoughts and totally agree with you.

Bill

 

[Another Voice]

The real issue holding things back is Disney’s attempt to reposition The Brand.

In the past, “Disney” was closely associated with animated movies, Mickey and the theme parks. It’s so closely tied that when you say you’re going to “Disney”, people know exactly where you’re going.

Ten years ago or so, the company attempted to change the meaning of “Disney”. Instead of meaning only “family entertainment – films, theater and resorts”, they wanted to change Disney to mean a high value product: a product that may or may not be associated with everything else Disney. Such a change was considered vital for the future growth of the company. Even Disney understands that markets change and that there will soon be more people collecting Social Security checks than children collecting trading pins.

The two most well known examples of this “rebranding” are The Disney Institute and The Disney Vacation Club (original form). The Institute was attempt to capture the well-heeled yuppie couple that are busy taking classes on making pesto at the Learning Tree and jetting off for spa weekends in Napa Valley. The Club was an attempt to build on Disney’s resort experience to both increase the frequency of trips to WDW and (more importantly), establish properties around the world offering Disney vacations.

Well, the Institute was bulldozed and the Vero Beach and Hilton Head DVC resports sit empty. Even though land was purchased for a DVC in Newport Beach and construction announced, the land was sold and Marriott opened up the property. In short, both projects failed in their business goals. Other, smaller attempts from DisneyQuest to Club Disney have met similar gory ends. Only the ESPN Zones remain open – but they don’t really help move “Disney” to mean “luxury brand”.

As far as the vast majority of the public is concerned, "Disney" still means a theme park - not a beach.

But the pressure to grow remains. The opening of Animal Kingdom showed Disney there is a limit to the audience for WDW; Disneyland has failed in its attempt to become a multi-day resort instead of a regional park. International expansion – Paris and Hong Kong – well, the less said the better.

So the question becomes one of investment. How much more money will Disney risk? If the past is any indication – they’re risk nothing.

 

[Debbie & Bill]

Another Voice, Totally Agree and well said it well too. DVC has a tremendous logistical hurdle to jump and hopefully it's time that they try once again to develop the club beyond. Being so familiar with Hawaii and Disney's presence already at Ko Olina, just for the club to offer timeshare in Hawaii has little benefits beyond annual dues.

What Disney seems to be doing in Hawaii now is selling tours and adventure day trips, and the family's appetites to visit Hawaii and spend big money too, these trips are very expensive.

The Marriott Vacation Club at Ko Olina is very nice almost Disney quality but lacks what only Disney can do, entertain, so the kids a board and I'll bet the parents would pay to have a really magical time.

Time will tell, but if they let this location slip away the other locations in Hawaii would be good second third and fourth picks, but this one would have been a instant winner and true flagship location. It's that nice!

 

[dbm20th]

I essentially agree with AV as well. I think that just as far as DVC is concerned, the lack of success with the 2 off-site project, HH and VB, have brought me to the point where I will not believe another off-site DVC rumor until I see the building opened.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

Well, the Institute was bulldozed and the Vero Beach and Hilton Head DVC resports sit empty.
<snip>
So the question becomes one of investment. How much more money will Disney risk? If the past is any indication – they’re risk nothing.

As metaphors, what you say about the Disney Institute and the off-site DVC resorts is correct.

Allow me to add details about the actual status of there properties:

The Disney Institute was "bulldozed" as a business entity providing enrichment programs to individuals. However, the only things that were actually bulldozed were residential building from the early 1970s. The buildings of the main campus of the Disney Institute were reused as the lobby, spa, restaurant, shop, and sales center of Disney's Saratoga Springs Resort and Spa. The campus was relatively new (1996). It was designed by renowned architect Thomas Beeby. In fact, the campus set the style for the new DVC residential buildings that replaced the tired old "villas" from the 1970s.

Disney Vacation Development (DVD) may wish they had never built the DVC resorts at Hilton Head and Vero Beach, but they're absolutely not sitting empty. In fact, they now run at near full capacity. These resorts enjoy an excellent reputation among timeshare aficionados. They're fully sold. It's very difficult to trade in through Interval International. Although I've never had the pleasure of staying at either resort, I understand they're wonderful properties. And Disney is now enjoying a steady, guaranteed management fee every year through 2042. The problem is that it took way too long to sell out, especially at Vero Beach. That means that Disney faced high carrying costs and high marketing costs. By pulling the plug — ten years ago — on other off-site DVC resorts that were being planned, Disney sent a clear message that Disney did not see the off-site timeshare resort as a good business.

Ten years is a long time. DVC now has over 90 thousand members to whom new DVC resorts can be marketed. The timeshare business is increasingly dominated by well-known brands such as Marriott and Hilton — and the Disney brand is now a particularly well respected timeshare brand. Most importantly, the business model of the lodging industry (including the timeshare part of it) has separated into companies that put capital into lodging real estate and the lodging "brand" companies (like Marriott International) that minimize their capital outlays.

I agree that Disney is unlikely to invest capital in a new off-site DVC resort. But that doesn't mean that we will never see another off-site DVC resort. Please read the links that I posted earlier in this thread for more thoughts on partnership developments.

 

[Another Voice]

The timeshare business is increasingly dominated by well-known brands such as Marriott and Hilton…

But the reason the industry is being dominated by “brands” isn’t because Marriott or Hilton offer superior service – but because these companies offer a large network of properties to stay at. People want variety, opportunity and flexibility.

All that Disney can currently offer is their reputation for “excellent service” and a character breakfest. That is unless Disney is willing to invest billions to build out a chain (which was the original intention of the Vacation Club). The DVC is in the same rut that the cruise line is in – they are a very successful player in a niche all to themselves, but Disney can’t compete in the broader (and more lucrative) market. Disney can offer “point trading” programs, but they will never be as generous or as inclusive as what a Marriott can offer.

In a corporate culture that is only interested in massive quarterly growth, staying in a niche is not really allowed. Ninety thousand people is not a big market for Disney – that’s a mediocre weekend at the Disneyland Resort or a really slow day at WDW. When you compare what an average park guest spends on their trip to the annual fees paid by a DVC member, the comparison is fairly close*.

The only solution that I see, and the one you hinted at, is that Disney will “outsource” the Vacation Club. Let someone else buy the properties and pay a royalty for the Disney name. Disney gets to keep a constant flow of guests to WDW and settles for a smaller slice of the new resorts (but sheds all the risk as well).


* and forgot about all that cash you slung upfront to buy your points. That’s all be used to pay off Mr. Murdoch, Mr. Eisner and Mr. Jobs.


P.S. The most ironic aspect about the whole Disney Institute is that it was built ontop of the ruins of the old Disney Village Resort. That resort, in turn, had been originally built as a time-share / vacation home development (Lake Buena Vista Village), but Disney had second thoughts at the last moment and converted everything into hotel rooms.

 

[dbm20th]

But the reason the industry is being dominated by “brands” isn’t because Marriott or Hilton offer superior service – but because these companies offer a large network of properties to stay at. People want variety, opportunity and flexibility.

But this principle is generally not applied to the Disney tourist. What DVC members have made painfully clear to managment is that they do NOT want variety, opportunity and flexibilty. They want the Mouse. Plain and simple. And that is why the timeshare business will never be dominated by Disney, much the same reason the crusie industry won't be either. Those who would buy into DVC want a cheaper way of attending the happiest place on earth every year for the rest of their lives. That will never be tru for everyone. But it is true for enough people to make DVC grow and prosper. I'm a DVC member and I know many others. Believe me when I tell you we are interetsed in one thing...the Mouse.

 

[simzac]

But this principle is generally not applied to the Disney tourist. What DVC members have made painfully clear to managment is that they do NOT want variety, opportunity and flexibilty. They want the Mouse. Plain and simple. And that is why the timeshare business will never be dominated by Disney, much the same reason the crusie industry won't be either. Those who would buy into DVC want a cheaper way of attending the happiest place on earth every year for the rest of their lives. That will never be tru for everyone. But it is true for enough people to make DVC grow and prosper. I'm a DVC member and I know many others. Believe me when I tell you we are interetsed in one thing...the Mouse.

I agree totally with this post.

 

[Another Voice]

Believe me when I tell you we are interetsed in one thing...the Mouse

That’s exactly Disney’s problem.

They’ve essentially reached the limit of the number of people that are willing to go to WDW every year – that’s why they call it a “mature market”. But the demands for increased earnings from the Attractions group, however, continue to be raised to ever higher levels.

The idea of the Vacation Club is that it would open up a much broader travel market to Disney. By cashing in on “Disney®” – meaning good service, family friendly, and little pricey – they could reach people who aren’t interested in theme parks. The was also the thinking behind the Disney Institute and even guided the design of California Adventure (which was meant to appeal to the well-traveled moneyed “better people” so offended by stodgy, red state Disneyland).

The problem turned out is the public sees Disney, not Disney® - they see Mickey and ‘Pirates’ and fast food. The people buying DVC didn’t care about going to a beach, they want a cheap way to see WDW; the people buying on Hilton Head wanted a “real resort”, not Mickey shaped pancakes in the morning. Nothing Disney’s marketing could do would change that perception. So the offsite resorts were cancelled.

But the demands for increased earnings continue. After the disappointments of Animal Kingdom, there’s nothing Attractions can do to increase revenues from WDW – they have to look outside again. There is a limit to the number of on property DVC units they can sell because there are only so many rabid fans out there.

So once again they’ve fallen back to Disney® even though it’s not what the current DVC client base wants, and it’s something the overall time share has shown doesn’t want either. The open question is how much money Disney is going to pour into this and how much they actually get back.

 

[dbm20th]

That’s exactly Disney’s problem.

They’ve essentially reached the limit of the number of people that are willing to go to WDW every year – that’s why they call it a “mature market”. But the demands for increased earnings from the Attractions group, however, continue to be raised to ever higher levels.

In my experience there is no such thing as a mature market, which is why they are trying to broaden the appeal of many attraction to mreo current markets.

The idea of the Vacation Club is that it would open up a much broader travel market to Disney. By cashing in on “Disney®” – meaning good service, family friendly, and little pricey – they could reach people who aren’t interested in theme parks.

This is part of the idea. The other part of the idea is to lock people into staying and spending on property for 50 years and also bankrollong operations for that time through maintenance fees. When to property isn't full of DVC members, they rent it out to the average public. It's a great racket when you think about it

The people buying DVC didn’t care about going to a beach, they want a cheap way to see WDW; the people buying on Hilton Head wanted a “real resort”, not Mickey shaped pancakes in the morning. Nothing Disney’s marketing could do would change that perception. So the offsite resorts were cancelled.

The problem is not that people don't attend HH and VB, they do. The problem is they couldn't sell it to the millions attending WDW everyday. They couldn't show it to them. If you are in sales then you know exctly what I mean.

Are you a DVC member. Booking at HH or VB in high season is just as difficult as anywhere else, so I really have no idea where you are getting this information from.

There is a limit to the number of on property DVC units they can sell because there are only so many rabid fans out there.

This is true, but they have not reached that number yet and they have not even tried an MK or even Califronia resort. Also, they can rent the rooms as hotel rooms when not occupied. So essentially they can collect $10,000 plus from hundreds of people and then rent on top of that. Sounds like a great way to bankroll construction to me. Then those hundreds spend $600 per year whether they attend or not

So once again they’ve fallen back to Disney® even though it’s not what the current DVC client base wants, and it’s something the overall time share has shown doesn’t want either. The open question is how much money Disney is going to pour into this and how much they actually get back.

Again, your conclusions are not correct. They have in DVC an opportunity to lock customers in for 50 years and pay thousands and thousands to do that. It has been a money-making process for sure

 

[Another Voice]

which is why they are trying to broaden the appeal of many attraction to mreo current markets.

As I said several times, they’ve tried that and flopped. The zoo, the spa, the cooking lessons, the race track, the baseball fields…all added up to zip from the corporate perspective. There’s only so much corporate patience for wasting money and right now Disney has plenty of places it would rather invest than WDW.

Again – this is a company demanding a 20% per year growth. For WDW right now that means an extra 3 million people showing up this year. That ain’t going to happen, so Disney is going to look for places where it can get that kind of revenue growth. Collecting six hundred bucks a year from DVC owners isn’t even couch change to Disney – they want the big bucks. They want new markets.

Whatever you think about the wonders of “locking people in”, Disney wants to expand their business beyond just the parks. That’s where they see the growth, that’s where they see the big bucks. It’s nice you think everyone is as anxious to ride ‘Primeval Whirl’ as you are – but the simple fact is normal people want to do other things. Disney knows this too, but they’ve been hampered because the greater public still sees them as an amusement park operator.

Their challenge is to figure out a way to sell a non-theme park experience to people that are don’t want “Mickey and only Mickey”. What, if anything, that will mean for current DVC owners is unknown.

 

[Jakey]

Bob Iger has talked a lot recently about Disney getting much deeper into the "family travel business." The only area of "family travel" I can think of that they're not already heavily into is the sort of all-inclusive resort ala Club Med or better yet---Beaches.

I wonder if this might not be the direction they attempt to go. The new Adventures by Disney tours is an attempt to take advantage of the "brand" and its reputation to entice families who want a more controlled and at least psychologically safer experience on a major trip. The all-inclusive resort might be the best route.

For example, Beaches resorts have lots of family activites, watersports, numerous restaurants on property, mini-waterparks, a variety of accomodations (and prices) and more---a sort of Vero on steroids. The Imagineers could dream up these resorts all over and make them fit the location they're in---Disney's Wild West, etc.

Maybe I'm just dreaming but I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this.

 

[dbm20th]

It’s nice you think everyone is as anxious to ride ‘Primeval Whirl’ as you are – but the simple fact is normal people want to do other things.

I am not sure I have any idea why this was directed towards me, but I do find it weird that you refer to those who enjoy Primeval Whirl as not "normal".

Collecting six hundred bucks a year from DVC owners isn’t even couch change to Disney – they want the big bucks

I believe there are roughly 90,000+ DVC members, and they have not stopped selling memberships by any means. That equals $54 million per year...guarenteed. Calling that chump change just doesn't make sense. And if they are able to double that and increase the maintenace fees, they will bringing in 100+ million per year, whether or not members attend WDW. That may not equate to 20% growth per year, but it certainly helps.

Yes, Disney has tried to expand their travel business outside of the theme parks with limited success, but the problem is that you have wrongly equated that to DVC. People didn't "not buy" Vero Beach and Hilton Head because they don't like those resorts or are not interesred. Those resorts are frequently filled by members and are not easy to book by any means. They are off-site and DVC members love them. In fact, those two are perhaps Disney's second best non-Theme Park success. (The first being DCL which is a terrific off-site travel success)

The lack of sales there has to do with the fact that people want the Mouse more. They want the extra 4 month booking window at the Mouse so they can get good ressies in summer and Christmas. But they still love VB and HH, and once again we haven't even touched on DCL

 

[Another Voice]

The lack of sales there has to do with the fact that people want the Mouse more.

Again – that’s Disney’s problem.

They don’t want to sell DVC memberships to people at WDW. They want to sell memberships in the Hamptons, in Texas, in Paris, on Hawaii. They want to sell lots and lots of memberships to all those millions and millions of people who don’t go to WDW every year (which is, after all, the overwhelming and vast majority of Americans). Disney wants a piece of the massive travel market that exists for beaches and resorts – the kind of the place the most people take their vacations.

Disney wants to break out of its travel niche because they think they will make lots of money. They saw DVC as one of the ways of doing it; and indications are that they are once again thinking on this line.

Personally, I agree with you. Disney’s effort to recruit a fanbased lifestyle brand have been overwhelming successful, to the point where I think the general public is being turned-off by “Disney”. Where people used to expect a lot of variety from Disney, now all they expect is Mickey, Mickey, Mickey (and a shop). The only way they will be successful at the DVC is the revamp WDW away from “Synergyland” and turn that place back into a true resort. It’s going to take a decade to reverse things.

P.S. $54 million is a lot of money to us normal people, but if you sit in an office in Burbank, it's complete chump change. With it you could buy about 30 minutes of Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest. Eisner spent more than that to buy the "right" to start up the Mighty Ducks hockey team - it was such a small amount neither the board nor Corporate needed to be bothered signing off on it. You couldn't even make The Pacifier for that kind of money, but you could build Disneyland's 'Winnie the Pooh' ride (ask anyone who has been on that one).

 

[dbm20th]

They don’t want to sell DVC memberships to people at WDW.

If that is the case, why do they have so many kiosks up all over WDW? Because, what we are both saying is true. The difference is that you are trying to focus on what portion of the original goal did not turn out as well as they hoped. Disney saw this as a chance to nail down the casual WDW tourist, and also to expand into the market you are saying. But believe me, the realistsic goal was to nail down the casual tourist and turn him into a "Disney-for-life"-er. There are many, many people who go to WDW but not every year. As DVC members, they pay whether they do or not.

Where people used to expect a lot of variety from Disney, now all they expect is Mickey, Mickey, Mickey (and a shop).

Do you mean to tell me that people thought that WDW had more variety before it contained a dozen hotels and 4 theme parks and 2 waterparks? Do you mean to say that when WDW consisted of MK, 2 hotels and campground that people thought there was more variety then there is now? (This is honestly a question. I am not sure that I am understanding what you wrote.)

The only way they will be successful at the DVC is the revamp WDW away from “Synergyland” and turn that place back into a true resort. It’s going to take a decade to reverse things.

Back here again. I am sorry to say and please I don't mean to offend, and maybe this isn't your agenda, but it seems as though all you truly want to accomplish is to voice complaints about Disney. Even when they are not related to the subject. I am a DVC member. It is a terrific program that will allow me and my family to afford and enjoy Walt Disney World, the greatest cruise ships on the seas, beutiful resorts in Hilton Head and Vero Beach, as well as so much more for my life and the little ones too. It is a wild success to who matters...me.

$54 million is a lot of money to us normal people, but if you sit in an office in Burbank, it's complete chump change.

This is a silly thing to debate, so I hope we can move on from this soon, but you know as well as I that a company as large as Disney thinks in terms of sections or division. To the bean counters in CA, $54 million per year is not much. But in terms of revenue for the WDW branch of the company $54 million is a plus to be sure. Especially when you consider that revenue can only go up! If no one ever buys a DVC membership ever again, it will continue to go up.

 

[Debbie & Bill]

We had a very simple observation. When DVC opened the new sales office in Saratoga it really looked like they we're in the beginning stages of a bigger idea. From the moment my wife & me entered it we felt like something much larger was going to be happening. They diden't build that sales office just to sell Saratoga.

The Old DVC sales office on the Boardwalk managed to sell some of OKW all of BWV, BCV, VWL and most of VB & HH and began the sales of SRR, not bad. So why then the new sales office? Much larger more sales offices and it's very beautiful and extremely conscious of the "world' beyond DVC in WDW in the paintings.

From that experience the thought of DVC beginning a major expansion beyond the Parks and it seemed to be present in the murals on the wall's and then the second thought was that DVC has missed the opportunity to be in the DVC resale business, and it would soon begin. How many would like to add on more here and there.

Another thought was with the older DVC locations now with only 30 some years left to go, could have the leases extended with additional years and yes, additional cost! Its all free money for Disney, they own It All At Expiration, its easy money with built in legacy customers.

But the main thought DVC offers a great product and yes even VB & HH just did not sell out as quick when the costs to buy and location of the home resort were considered, yes discounts we're offered in the final sale incentive but only a little. We added some VB it's nice to be able to have it as a home resort too.

If DVC is going be selling new locations to survive long term it has no choice but to expand beyond WDW, because there's only so much need for more DVC in the WDW. My feeling are very simple if Disney Builds many will find a reason to love it and buy it, Disney is a great company and DVC is a fantastic place to vacation all around the country and world and would make a great cost effective second home for the retired with a thousand points or so.

Just a thought & Wish Too

 

[Debbie & Bill]

We posted the original post a few years ago and it's now reality, well, we heard that the cruise ship is going to be docked at the Ko Olina Marina, despite the rumors it's not. As for reflagging the ship to the USA, minor issue, Disney can and will pay minium wages. Now I'm not for cheap wages, but Hawaii is part of a larger dream and a few extra buck's for a very expencive trip is chump change.