Nasty School Letter

[Finny]

Am I the only crazy parent who wouldn't want their child to be assigned school work while on vacation?

I homeschool, so I don't need to worry about it. But if my kids were in school, and we were taking them out for vacation, I wouldn't want to deal with the hassle of having to complete assignments. I would want to enjoy my family and vacation. It would be like taking work with you on vacation.

Sadly, our schools and teachers are in a tough position. I think there needs to be an overhaul of how the system works. I want teachers to be able teach again, not just make sure the kids can pass a test. I feel badly for the teachers and administrators who have to deal with the gov't.

 

[sammyteach]

Lunabkat IM so sorry for your loss what a tough thing to happen I t just shows you never know whats around the corner and we should all enjoy our families .

 

[Mandygrrl]

Wow - I am so glad I read this entire thread! It was very educational. I have a 2yo daughter, so I don't yet know what the policies are in my current school district regarding time off. Now I know to research those policies before we enrole DD!

I grew up in PA, and my parents took us out of school every year for vacations. One year, they took us out for 4 weeks to go on a 6 week vacation to the southern hemishpere (Australia, New Zealand, etc.). I was in 5th grade at the time and we took schoolwork with us. After missing that many weeks of school, I arrived home and was caught up within 2 days. Interestingly enough, it was my teacher who had a problem with the extended absence, NOT the administrators. My mom (who was a teacher, too) just explained to my teacher that she didn't need to give me any special attention, I would do my assigned schoolwork on the trip and would catch up on my own. Mom was right.

A good parent knows their child's abilities. He knows if his kids need to be in class to understand and retain new knowledge, or if he can pick things up quickly and retain them easily. A good parents knows this better than a child's teacher.

Unfortunately, not all parents are "good", therefore the public school system has been placed into the role of "babysitter". This is sad, but it is what it is. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I know that my family will choose a school that is best for us, not best for the community as a whole.

 

[write2caro]

We have done research on student absences. As soon as a student misses 10 days their grades and scores on standardized tests drop dramatically.

Would you be willing to share your source for this? This really surprises me and I would like to be able to do some of my own research on that topic. Unfortunately, I missed more than that every year for health-related issues alone when I was younger and always scored in the high 90th percentiles on all of Canada's standardized tests and got straight A's. I know my experience will not be that of all students, but I am surprised that as few as 10 days in an entire year make that big a difference. It would lead me to question the validity of the test and wonder what they were controlling for in those studies (e.g. if they say something like "over 10 days", but a significant proportion of the kids in that category miss 30 days).

 

[write2caro]

Disclaimer - I'm big on evidence and data analysis and getting to the root when it comes to cause/effect. Please ignore if this delves deeper that your interest.

For those who are interested, this is what I have found after some research. The study that seems to be quoted repeatedly that links performance with attendance is a Jun 2000 study done in Rochester. They looked at "8th grade scores on basic skills tests" and found the following:

This data was then analyzed by researchers at the University of Minnesota and they concluded that students who missed 9 days were twice as likely to "pass" as those who missed 27 days.

Following this, it looks as though several school districts reevaluated their attendance policies and made them a little stricter.

As someone who has done data analysis at work, I think that the way this is being quoted and used is misleading. Common sense would dictate that there is a big difference between 9 days and 27 days, and what is going on with those students. Note that in the original study, those who missed almost 13 days scored between 85th and 100th percentile, and those who missed over 16 days on average still ranked between 65th and 84th percentile.

While there is clearly a link, it is much stronger when an extreme number of days is missed. I think policies with hard lines (e.g. reporting anyone to social services or such extreme measures) at or around 10 days are going overboard based on this data. Not to mention how limited this data is! If there are administrators or teachers out there who have more data or more recent data, I would love to take a look at it. I wasn't able to find any.

Anyone who works with data will tell you that you can make it look like almost anything you want it to. IMO, this data seems to have been sliced in a way that overstates the argument for strict attendance policies anywhere near a 10 day mark.

My source: http://www.ncpa.org/pi/edu/pd062700c.html
Article quoted in reference to study: Editorial, "Skip Class, Lose Ground", USA Today, June 27, 2000.

 

[mom0299]

write2caro:
I am on the data team in my school. We did the study in our own school with our own students involving our own state tests. Students with 0-9 absences had very little difference in the average score on the state tests. Once a student missed that 10th day their scores began to drop noticeably.
That may not be the case everywhere, but it is here. We learned that when you are not getting face to face instruction from the teacher it makes a huge difference.

 

[write2caro]

mom0299: Thanks for your response!

I see what you mean, but I would have sooo many questions about that kind of study. E.g. How many students (size of sample), what did you control for, what kind of statistical analysis was performed in order to justify 0-9 as a cutoff, etc.

I wouldn't doubt that if we look hard enough at the data, we would find some effect of absences - makes perfect sense. However, I think choosing that magic cutoff number has to be looked at very carefully when extreme measures are in place that allow a parent to be hauled into court should their child excede it. I would think the punishment should fit the crime, so to speak. Knocking a kid down from 85th to 84th percentile in a standardized test (the potential difference between 12 and 16 days missed according to that study) hardly seems like reason enough to report someone to social services! I think most people would probably agree with that.

 

[xoprincessmomxo]

I have a friend who teaches 6th grade in our local school. At the beginning of the year, one of the students on her list still hadn't come to school after 3 weeks!!! She finally asked the other students in her class if any of them knew what was going on.
Finally, one of them spoke up and said "His mom is on a sabatical."
She said "Oh really?"
And the little boy said "Yep. She's trying to find herself."

So, I guess, in our district...you can take them out for anything!

 

[perdidochas]

I have a friend who teaches 6th grade in our local school. At the beginning of the year, one of the students on her list still hadn't come to school after 3 weeks!!! She finally asked the other students in her class if any of them knew what was going on.
Finally, one of them spoke up and said "His mom is on a sabatical."
She said "Oh really?"
And the little boy said "Yep. She's trying to find herself."

So, I guess, in our district...you can take them out for anything!

In school districts I've worked at, the "ticker" didn't start to count until the first day the child actually showed up. A student that didn't show up for two weeks, wasn't counted absent for those ten days......

 

[Mandygrrl]

mom0299: Thanks for your response!

I see what you mean, but I would have sooo many questions about that kind of study. E.g. How many students (size of sample), what did you control for, what kind of statistical analysis was performed in order to justify 0-9 as a cutoff, etc.

I wouldn't doubt that if we look hard enough at the data, we would find some effect of absences - makes perfect sense. However, I think choosing that magic cutoff number has to be looked at very carefully when extreme measures are in place that allow a parent to be hauled into court should their child excede it. I would think the punishment should fit the crime, so to speak. Knocking a kid down from 85th to 84th percentile in a standardized test (the potential difference between 12 and 16 days missed according to that study) hardly seems like reason enough to report someone to social services! I think most people would probably agree with that.

You make a lot of sense!

 

[chobie]

mom0299: Thanks for your response!

I see what you mean, but I would have sooo many questions about that kind of study. E.g. How many students (size of sample), what did you control for, what kind of statistical analysis was performed in order to justify 0-9 as a cutoff, etc.

I wouldn't doubt that if we look hard enough at the data, we would find some effect of absences - makes perfect sense. However, I think choosing that magic cutoff number has to be looked at very carefully when extreme measures are in place that allow a parent to be hauled into court should their child excede it. I would think the punishment should fit the crime, so to speak. Knocking a kid down from 85th to 84th percentile in a standardized test (the potential difference between 12 and 16 days missed according to that study) hardly seems like reason enough to report someone to social services! I think most people would probably agree with that.

I agree that calling social services for an arbitrary amount of missed days is ridiculous, but the schools need to show the government they are doing what they can to meet the dictates on NCLB. So, parents should really be calling their representatives to get rid of that piece of legislation.

I think parents should be able to take their kids out for what ever reason, but I also think the teacher should not have to take the time to put together a homework packet to facilitate that. YOU take your kid out when you want --and YOU deal with the consequences of the missed work. Parents should be able to make these decisions, but they should not expect others to be inconvenienced for their whims.

 

[write2caro]

You make a lot of sense!

Thanks - I was hoping I managed to make sense.

I agree that calling social services for an arbitrary amount of missed days is ridiculous, but the schools need to show the government they are doing what they can to meet the dictates on NCLB. So, parents should really be calling their representatives to get rid of that piece of legislation.

ITA on NCLB! From what I have heard, it seems that it has failed our kids, teachers, administrators and parents alike. We need to get behind changing that.

 

[Planning fanatic mom]

I'm a 6th grade teacher and I wasn't going to reply at first, but I think I will. My district does have a number of days rule but it is not the only criteria for action. So basically a student who has good attendance, decent grades, and no behavior issues does not have any trouble taking a vacation with the family. We understand that family's have to do what is best for them. In fact, I know of noone who has ever had trouble when they go on vacation. I always tell them to have fun! (especially Disney trips)

We have a form that is filled out ahead of time. The parents can make a choice to get the work ahead of time or wait until they return. Our school rule is that a student has 1 day to make up work for every day they are out of school for any reason. Most parents (in fact, all that I know of) choose the work ahead of time so that their child won't have to make up the work when they get back plus keep up with the work assigned at that time.

This works great for everyone most of the time. Here's the issue that I come up against. There are parents who choose to go on vacation and then expect school to stop while they are gone. On some occasions, I've had requests to change the dates of field trips, special events, and assemblies. Please know that none of these events would in any way affect their child's grades by being missed. I teach science and have had parents angry because their child missed a lab. I always have an opportunity for their child to complete the lab when they return. But I've been told that it is not the same. This seems unfair to everyone. Could you imagine if your child came home and told you that they couldn't complete a science lab this week because "Susie" was at Disney World. If I did that, I wouldn't have taught for the last month because I have had at least one student on vacation every week for the last 4 weeks and another one next week. That will be 5 weeks in a row.

Again the above situation is rare but happens at least once a year.

If I could make one suggestion, try not to go the first week or 2 of school. The only troubles I've ever had with students are those that miss the first weeks of the routines and friendship building. 6th graders can form friendship groups very quickly. I guess this why it is a great time to go to Disney.

OK enough. Thanks for hearing me out.

29 school days left (Yes, teachers count too)
50 DAYS UNTIL POR

 

[write2caro]

Planning fanatic mom: I'm glad you did choose to post after all. I hope we find a school district for our kids that is as reasonable in applying its policies as yours is. As far as parents expecting the world to stand still while they're on vacation, that's ridiculous, and I'm glad you don't come across it too terribly often (although I'm sure it's a pain when you do!).

This is why all those comments in this thread about not being able to apply policies on a case by case basis bothered me. I think it IS reasonable just as your school does it. Like if I have an employee who is habitually late, I do deal with that differently than one who gives me notice, does all they can to minimize disruption and doesn't make a habit of it. Seems like common sense to me...

 

[lastminutemom]

My children attend a small enough elemetary school, that as parents, we know pretty much all the kids, at least at their grade level. First, let me say, that pretty consistently, the kids who get perfect attendance are never the top students and are often kids who struggle the most. Hopefully, being there every day helps them improve academically.

Secondly, most kids who miss more than 10 days generally aren't on vacation -- they are either sickly kids or have irresponsible parents who simply can't get them to school (or they need their children to stay home with them to translate -- a fairly new issue in our area). In other words, these kids already have something going against them -- their family background. Correlating test scores to their attendance records and you will probably find that their scores are lower -- because (with the exception of health issues) families don't value education as much.

The problem is for due process reasons -- school systems can't have double standards. They can't say that Joe can miss two weeks but Julie can't.


That said, I do think that parents forget that new material will be introduced even if their kids aren't there.

I have a hard time believing that it is wise for high school students to miss more than a few days. Our school system does not require teachers to give make up work for unexcused abscences and most High school teachers don't.

My son was out on Thursday (sick) and he missed a new concept in math. He really had to work hard on Friday to catch up.

We would never go on vacation for more than a day and miss school. The pain upon arrival home would simply be to great.

 

[lastminutemom]

I want to add one other thing. As a country, we can't have it both ways. We can't hold schools accountable for academic acheivement and not hold parents accountable for attendance. If students (at least some of them) aren't in school, then they aren't being educated and then they won't do well on standardized tests, which are the tools use to measure accountability.

If attendance policies bother you, then the first step is to write your Congressional Representatives and your Senators and object to the reauthorization of NCLB. Tell them that you don't want schools held accountable and you certainly want them to remove the ability for school systems to use attendance data as a measure of school improvement.

On the local level, why not lobby for a balanced or year round calendar. This allows for a shorter summer vacation (generally 6 weeks) and then multiple longer than normal breaks during the school year -- usually a week or two in the Fall, 2 to 3 weeks at Christmastime, and a couple of weeks in the spring along with long weekends, etc. This would allow you to vacation at off times without missing school. The research is a bit murky in this area but some studies support that this type of calendar as a school improvement tool.

 

[Tallent]

In my school/county we are no longer allowed to give out extra work to do while on vacations taken during the school year. We will not give out work that has not been taught yet nor review packets for work previously taught. Your options are, basically, to try and make it all up when you get back, have your family check your grade level objectives for that quarter and figure it out, or try and muddle through--but it's not a teachers job to give you the material to teach. (and no grades are reported for made up work). We used to tell families to keep a journal but even that isn't allowed anymore. it's basically and 'Go But Know the Consequences' policy. i just tell my families to have a great time--it's their choice to take their family on vacations and they can do what they want/what they will with their children.

 

[Figment*Fan]

Wow, there are some really strict policies on attendance! Things sure have changed since I was in school (it wasn't *that* long ago, lol) -- when I was in school there were classmates who went on weeklong or longer vacations (I never did though, because my mom couldn't afford to take us anywhere on vacation). Now though, I believe our local district asks for a doctor's excuse for *any* absence, and have cracked down on approving family vacations as well.

We homeschool, so we have 365 days in which to meet the required 180 days -- after reading what some people are facing, I appreciate the flexibility all the more now.

 

[jaurban]

We are looking at Kindergarten schools for our DD - we probably won't go public - so I am asking each place their policy about vacation days while school is in session. Not that I intend for her to miss - but I really hate the idea of someone telling me what to do, and the public school district does not have flexibility with NCLB.

 

[write2caro]

In my school/county we are no longer allowed to give out extra work to do while on vacations taken during the school year. We will not give out work that has not been taught yet nor review packets for work previously taught. Your options are, basically, to try and make it all up when you get back, have your family check your grade level objectives for that quarter and figure it out, or try and muddle through--but it's not a teachers job to give you the material to teach. (and no grades are reported for made up work). We used to tell families to keep a journal but even that isn't allowed anymore. it's basically and 'Go But Know the Consequences' policy. i just tell my families to have a great time--it's their choice to take their family on vacations and they can do what they want/what they will with their children.

Does this stike anyone else as sad? Did any of us grow up in that kind of school enviroment? Maybe it was the whole growing-up-in-Canada thing, but I have never heard of this attitude until now. NCLB and anything else that has contributed to this sort of thing really needs to go, in my view. I might steer away from public schools even in "good school districts" after reading some of the stuff I have on DIS!! Not just this thread, but others on other topics as well. Sad.