My simple yet Im too stupid to realize why FP+ question

[Mac4life30]

How is it that this is causing the long lines we are seeing everywhere. Wouldnt people be getting fast passes for E ticket rides? So how can this cause a long line on something that normally would be a walk on??

 

[patty57]

The thought is that people are now getting FP+ for attractions that never had them before, which causes a FP+ line. Doesn't MDE steer people to minor attractions when scheduling? I haven't done it yet, so don't know for sure.

 

[1 DISNEY FAN]

I think they are giving out more fp+ than they used to give out fp-.

 

[surferdave]

How is it that this is causing the long lines we are seeing everywhere. Wouldnt people be getting fast passes for E ticket rides? So how can this cause a long line on something that normally would be a walk on??

I suspect it works like this:

1) Take a perfectly good minor attraction that has a quick moving queue line and no Fastpass line of any kind because it doesn't need one.

2) Give it a Fastpass line anyway because you're selling that as a feature. Like all the other Fastpass lines, it moves no faster than the glowing Mickey Orbs will let it, which happens to be slower than the standby line previously moved.

3) Only give 3 FP/day to guests; on crowded days this means that many of them will have to use some of them on minor attractions, especially if they can't or won't ride the more "thrilling" major attractions.

4) Give the slow moving Fastpass line priority over standby. The line now moves at the slower speed of the glowing Mickey Orb frequency.

So basically you can stand outside the fastpass line at any attraction and figure out the average time it takes to move from guest to guest in the orb scanning process. For the formerly fast moving queue lines that benefited from fast loading attractions, that is your new slower queue speed when the Fastpass lines are full.

 

[Sandy Fisher]

Totally agree with surferdave. Disney has created a false need for a FP for an attraction that was previously a walk-on.
I said this before (weeks ago) and was politely ignored. It wasn't a rant. It wasn't a baseless complaint.
Just a fact. They're telling you how wonderful it is to arrange your FP+ schedule, only they aren't letting you use those precious 3 reservations for all the top attractions.
Voila. You now need a FP+ to ride something very ordinary.
Just my humble two cents' worth as usual.

 

[AmyB2006]

Totally agree with surferdave. Disney has created a false need for a FP for an attraction that was previously a walk-on.
I said this before (weeks ago) and was politely ignored. It wasn't a rant. It wasn't a baseless complaint.
Just a fact. They're telling you how wonderful it is to arrange your FP+ schedule, only they aren't letting you use those precious 3 reservations for all the top attractions.
Voila. You now need a FP+ to ride something very ordinary.
Just my humble two cents' worth as usual.

Yes, the fact that The Great Movie Ride and things of the like have a FP+ line now is aggravating.

However, I still think it depends on crowd levels. We have used FP+ 3 times now. Twice when it was just resort guests, and once just recently over Princess Half Marathon weekend. I have never personally witnessed long FP lines or exceedingly unusual long standby lines.

But obviously when it's crowded the lines will be longer, but wouldn't they be anyway, with or without FP+?

 

[nooneshome]

I haven't been since they started FP+ so this is only a WAG. More people have FPs for the headliners so they have more time to spend on the lesser attractions. Also for the old FP hoarders they only have the one FP for a headliner so they spend more time at the lesser attractions.

 

[surferdave]

But obviously when it's crowded the lines will be longer, but wouldn't they be anyway, with or without FP+?

First assume there's no change in demand. If the attraction is naturally a fast loader, it may have moved guests through faster than a line would form before. But now it moves at the slower Mickey Orb speed and a line backs up.

Now assume Disney is accomplishing the goal of increasing utilization of the less popular rides like the movie ride. The problem is now worse as more people are riding it than before because they fell they can't let the Fastpass go to waste, like people who will buy things they don't need because they are on sale.

 

[mouserrificmom]

I do think a significant part of it may be getting passed the glowing Mickey readers. When we were there in September during the earlier parts of the 'test', we were really lucky because hardly any other guests had them and we could book 3 'headliners'. We were usually the only ones using the FP+ at any given time (they still had people using legacy FP) BUT it would take a little time for all of us to check through. There was also a 2nd point with most of the rides closer to the boarding area. Now that EVERYONE is using them, and it is the only FP option (no one can present just a paper slip and breeze past) I am sure it has lead to congestion. If I understand correctly, the access for disabled guests has also been moved to the FP entries. I could be totally wrong about that having never needed it nor been with anyone who did, but that is what I have heard and I am sure that might contribute to slowdowns if they are navigating through the line with a guest who needs assistance. A slow moving line will produce a long line, but in my experience in September it was back up at the checkpoints and once through things moved quickly. I will be there next week, and have already booked my FP+ selections, so I am very curious to see how things have changed since then.

 

[JimmyV]

It's a dynamic situation with lots of reasons. Consider this scenario..

Ride that previuosly did not have a FP line (and hence no place for a FP line to assemble) now has such a line. The first Mickey is outside the attraction causing people to queue up outside, spilling out into public walkways. They are getting in the way. The whole "Mickey tap" thing takes time and the FP line builds ever bigger......

Attraction CM outside of ride (Tony)
Attraction CM at boarding area (Tonya)

"Tonya, this is Tony. I'm outside here and this Fast Pass line is really building up. We need to do something to clear out this mess. The Fast Pass people are complaining that they are having to wait 20-30 minutes with their Fast Passes. That is way longer than before. We need to get these people moving faster or else this new system is going to get bad word of mouth reviews."

"OK Tony. I'll do what I can. Sir? Yes, you at the front of the Standby Line. Can you please hold up for a moment so I can get some of these Fast Pass people cleared out?"

Tonya then lets 100 Fast Pass people clear out while the Standby line stays stagnant for 10-15 minutes not moving an inch. Then, in order to avoid another backup, Tonya increases the ratio of FP people to SB people such that the FP line boards at a brisk pace but the SB line moves at a crawl.

Remember. Disney was disappointed with the number of FP- that each person was averaging, (1.5 or so). It now gives you 3 and people are using them. There are twice as many people with Fast Passes walking around cutting off the Standby Lines. And to push this "benefit" even further, they have upper the percentage of ride capacity devoted to FP. So there may actually be three times as many Fast Passes cutting off the Standby lines. And Fast Passes are being used from the moment the parks open because when booking on line in advance, all times are viable. It used to be that 9:00-10:00 wasn't really a viable FP time. People didn't really want those times and you physically had to pull a FP the minute the park opened to get one of those early times. As soon as the clock ticked over to 9:15, those early FP times were gone for good. And when the clock ticked over to 9:30, more return times disappeared for good. In essence, there was a brief 30 minute window in which to book early FPs. Now, that window is 60 days plus 30 minutes. And with greater competition for FPs, people are booking those times. "Honey....the computer is telling me that the only time available for a Pooh FP+ is 9:15-10:15. Should I grab it?" And when FP people start cutting off the SB line starting at 9:05 and continue to pour in at a steady rate all morning long, the SB line starts to bog down early and only gets worse as the day progresses. We've gone from a system where the number of FP people getting in line at HM at 9:15 was zero to a system where that number is not large, but not insignificant. We've gone from a system where the number of FP returnees at Space Mountain at 9:15 was "dribs and drabs" to a system where that number is a steady stream. All of these FP returnees has to causes the SB lines to bog down.

 

[redrosesix]

I suspect it works like this:

1) Take a perfectly good minor attraction that has a quick moving queue line and no Fastpass line of any kind because it doesn't need one.

2) Give it a Fastpass line anyway because you're selling that as a feature. Like all the other Fastpass lines, it moves no faster than the glowing Mickey Orbs will let it, which happens to be slower than the standby line previously moved.

3) Only give 3 FP/day to guests; on crowded days this means that many of them will have to use some of them on minor attractions, especially if they can't or won't ride the more "thrilling" major attractions.

4) Give the slow moving Fastpass line priority over standby. The line now moves at the slower speed of the glowing Mickey Orb frequency.

So basically you can stand outside the fastpass line at any attraction and figure out the average time it takes to move from guest to guest in the orb scanning process. For the formerly fast moving queue lines that benefited from fast loading attractions, that is your new slower queue speed when the Fastpass lines are full.

This. We didn't see any attractions that had zero people in the FP return queue. At POTC it was just silly -- DD and I were the only ones to arrive at the boats at that time. They had to give us a boat to ourselves (but it was awesome because we went through the ride alone as well). I looked back and they had to load another (party of 4) boat for FP before they added a SB boat. So 42 empty seats in just those 2 boats. At that time there was a 20 minute wait in SB, which is not bad but I would have expected it to be a walk on any other year since crowd levels were low. Obviously there would have been no wait at all if it weren't for the separate FP+ line. Like probably many others, we had a FP for PoTC because we had to pick 3 and that was the area of the park we were going to be in at that time and it's a must do for us.

Yes, the fact that The Great Movie Ride and things of the like have a FP+ line now is aggravating.

However, I still think it depends on crowd levels. We have used FP+ 3 times now. Twice when it was just resort guests, and once just recently over Princess Half Marathon weekend. I have never personally witnessed long FP lines or exceedingly unusual long standby lines.

But obviously when it's crowded the lines will be longer, but wouldn't they be anyway, with or without FP+?

We were there at the same time and SB lines were about double what I'd expect. But for me the fact that there is any wait at all for FP return is mind-boggling (and many of those are inside the ride). There was never a queue to get into the queue before and in most cases you just walked through to where it joined the SB line. Most FP return lines take at least 10-15 minutes, which is what I would have expected for SB for the dates and times of day we were there. Not a huge wait, but it adds up.

Personally, I saw a lot of times where FP- would have been helpful in improving efficiency, especially for rides like BTMRR towards the end of the day. When it got late and queue before the FP queue finally disappeared, the SB line was still at least 45 minutes.

I feel like I have to say this again and again, but I do not hate the idea of FP+. I can see how it would be helpful but I don't like being tied down to a schedule for every ride (which is what really happens when you have 3 FPs booked in adv, since you have to get through the non-FP rides before you move to another area of the park for the next FP). I could make it work for me though because I know the rides and I know how to get to them.

But seriously? This system isn't working well and there are just so many things that need to be improved.

 

[redrosesix]

I do think a significant part of it may be getting passed the glowing Mickey readers. When we were there in September during the earlier parts of the 'test', we were really lucky because hardly any other guests had them and we could book 3 'headliners'. We were usually the only ones using the FP+ at any given time (they still had people using legacy FP) BUT it would take a little time for all of us to check through. There was also a 2nd point with most of the rides closer to the boarding area. Now that EVERYONE is using them, and it is the only FP option (no one can present just a paper slip and breeze past) I am sure it has lead to congestion. If I understand correctly, the access for disabled guests has also been moved to the FP entries. I could be totally wrong about that having never needed it nor been with anyone who did, but that is what I have heard and I am sure that might contribute to slowdowns if they are navigating through the line with a guest who needs assistance. A slow moving line will produce a long line, but in my experience in September it was back up at the checkpoints and once through things moved quickly. I will be there next week, and have already booked my FP+ selections, so I am very curious to see how things have changed since then.

Absolutely, and the bands. I watched people using the cards and they work much faster -- it's more of a swipe than making the mickey touch the mickey.

It's a dynamic situation with lots of reasons. Consider this scenario..

Ride that previuosly did not have a FP line (and hence no place for a FP line to assemble) now has such a line. The first Mickey is outside the attraction causing people to queue up outside, spilling out into public walkways. They are getting in the way. The whole "Mickey tap" thing takes time and the FP line builds ever bigger......

Attraction CM outside of ride (Tony)
Attraction CM at boarding area (Tonya)

"Tonya, this is Tony. I'm outside here and this Fast Pass line is really building up. We need to do something to clear out this mess. The Fast Pass people are complaining that they are having to wait 20-30 minutes with their Fast Passes. That is way longer than before. We need to get these people moving faster or else this new system is going to get bad word of mouth reviews."

"OK Tony. I'll do what I can. Sir? Yes, you at the front of the Standby Line. Can you please hold up for a moment so I can get some of these Fast Pass people cleared out?"

Tonya then lets 100 Fast Pass people clear out while the Standby line stays stagnant for 10-15 minutes not moving an inch. Then, in order to avoid another backup, Tonya increases the ratio of FP people to SB people such that the FP line boards at a brisk pace but the SB line moves at a crawl.

Remember. Disney was disappointed with the number of FP- that each person was averaging, (1.5 or so). It now gives you 3 and people are using them. There are twice as many people with Fast Passes walking around cutting off the Standby Lines. And to push this "benefit" even further, they have upper the percentage of ride capacity devoted to FP. So there may actually be three times as many Fast Passes cutting off the Standby lines. And Fast Passes are being used from the moment the parks open because when booking on line in advance, all times are viable. It used to be that 9:00-10:00 wasn't really a viable FP time. People didn't really want those times and you physically had to pull a FP the minute the park opened to get one of those early times. As soon as the clock ticked over to 9:15, those early FP times were gone for good. And when the clock ticked over to 9:30, more return times disappeared for good. In essence, there was a brief 30 minute window in which to book early FPs. Now, that window is 60 days plus 30 minutes. And with greater competition for FPs, people are booking those times. "Honey....the computer is telling me that the only time available for a Pooh FP+ is 9:15-10:15. Should I grab it?" And when FP people start cutting off the SB line starting at 9:05 and continue to pour in at a steady rate all morning long, the SB line starts to bog down early and only gets worse as the day progresses. We've gone from a system where the number of FP people getting in line at HM at 9:15 was zero to a system where that number is not large, but not insignificant. We've gone from a system where the number of FP returnees at Space Mountain at 9:15 was "dribs and drabs" to a system where that number is a steady stream. All of these FP returnees has to causes the SB lines to bog down.

this is all true, except in our experience the FP+ return had priority over all SB guests no matter how long they had been waiting. So your "hold up the SB line for a minute" is already built into the system. The issues in the FP return line, especially the queue before the queue, aren't a result of SB guests getting to ride. however, in rides where the two lines merge eventually, there is always a ton of SB guests waiting so that's where your scenario comes into play.

 

[surferdave]

This. We didn't see any attractions that had zero people in the FP return queue. At POTC it was just silly -- DD and I were the only ones to arrive at the boats at that time. They had to give us a boat to ourselves (but it was awesome because we went through the ride alone as well). I looked back and they had to load another (party of 4) boat for FP before they added a SB boat. So 42 empty seats in just those 2 boats. At that time there was a 20 minute wait in SB, which is not bad but I would have expected it to be a walk on any other year since crowd levels were low. Obviously there would have been no wait at all if it weren't for the separate FP+ line. Like probably many others, we had a FP for PoTC because we had to pick 3 and that was the area of the park we were going to be in at that time and it's a must do for us.

Yikes. That's the strongest evidence I've seen yet that the orbs are limiting, if they are sending the boat rides and omnimovers through below capacity (way below in this case!) because the line can't keep up with the ride.

I hate being right all the time. (It's a joke!)

 

[mom2rtk]

This. We didn't see any attractions that had zero people in the FP return queue. At POTC it was just silly -- DD and I were the only ones to arrive at the boats at that time. They had to give us a boat to ourselves (but it was awesome because we went through the ride alone as well). I looked back and they had to load another (party of 4) boat for FP before they added a SB boat. So 42 empty seats in just those 2 boats. At that time there was a 20 minute wait in SB, which is not bad but I would have expected it to be a walk on any other year since crowd levels were low. Obviously there would have been no wait at all if it weren't for the separate FP+ line. Like probably many others, we had a FP for PoTC because we had to pick 3 and that was the area of the park we were going to be in at that time and it's a must do for us.

That is precisely the scenario I had been wondering about. Thanks for posting that.

 

[JimmyV]

this is all true, except in our experience the FP+ return had priority over all SB guests no matter how long they had been waiting. So your "hold up the SB line for a minute" is already built into the system. The issues in the FP return line, especially the queue before the queue, aren't a result of SB guests getting to ride. however, in rides where the two lines merge eventually, there is always a ton of SB guests waiting so that's where your scenario comes into play.

Yes. The different boarding processes result in different issues. We had a peak, mid-afternoon FP fir BTMRR and noticed that in the 20 minutes it took us to get through our line (which was backed up through Frontierland), and then the 5 minutes to board and ride, the SB line had not....moved.....an.....inch. We could tell because there was a guy standing at an opening of the SB line that overlooked the ride entrance. He was having a conversation with a friend down on the ground. When we took the turn at the ride exit to walk by the ride entrance, he was still in the same place talking to the same person. It was as if the ride had broken down, only it hadn't. But in that 25 minutes, 100% (or close to it) of all boarding came from the FP line.

 

[Mad Hattered]

This. We didn't see any attractions that had zero people in the FP return queue. At POTC it was just silly -- DD and I were the only ones to arrive at the boats at that time. They had to give us a boat to ourselves (but it was awesome because we went through the ride alone as well). I looked back and they had to load another (party of 4) boat for FP before they added a SB boat. So 42 empty seats in just those 2 boats. At that time there was a 20 minute wait in SB, which is not bad but I would have expected it to be a walk on any other year since crowd levels were low. Obviously there would have been no wait at all if it weren't for the separate FP+ line. Like probably many others, we had a FP for PoTC because we had to pick 3 and that was the area of the park we were going to be in at that time and it's a must do for us.

Thanks for the input! But beware....someone will probably be along shortly to tell you that didn't happen. They will argue it was only 40 empty seats.

 

[MickeyChix]

Can someone tell me ---is the fast pass plus system tiered at the Magic Kingdom?

 

[surferdave]

Can someone tell me ---is the fast pass plus system tiered at the Magic Kingdom?

No

 

[MickeyChix]

Thank you!

 

[surferdave]

Yes. The different boarding processes result in different issues. We had a peak, mid-afternoon FP fir BTMRR and noticed that in the 20 minutes it took us to get through our line (which was backed up through Frontierland), and then the 5 minutes to board and ride, the SB line had not....moved.....an.....inch. We could tell because there was a guy standing at an opening of the SB line that overlooked the ride entrance. He was having a conversation with a friend down on the ground. When we took the turn at the ride exit to walk by the ride entrance, he was still in the same place talking to the same person. It was as if the ride had broken down, only it hadn't. But in that 25 minutes, 100% (or close to it) of all boarding came from the FP line.

I suspect that the CMs take opportunity to move a chunk of the SB queue every time little kids or the more clueless guests step up and can't figure out the FP+ scanning process, or there's a tech issue with the orbs. That may be often enough to keep it moving in most cases.