My 2 cents on FP+

[bpadair32]

So you think it's fair that someone could log in at midnight 60 days out, and not get any availability for SDMT, but someone could book a last minute trip and randomly check MDE the day before and get SDMT?

I don't call that fair. I call that a crapshoot.

I think it is far less of a crap shoot than people make it out to be. These boards are kind of a vacuum chamber, and you are going to hear from a lot more people that had problems than did not. it is the nature of the world and especially the internet that people with problems tend to shout them far and wide, and people that do not tend to just go about their day.

No I would not be better at six flags, I love WDW.... and it is not more fair!!!!!! I love the stories behind the rides at Disney... that's why my family has been going there once a year since 1996, and have not gone to a six flags in 15 years.... And no you still have to be at rope drop if you want a chance to ride all the rides you want. and then if your lucky maybe one ride... maybe fireworks, characters, and shows are a big reason a lot of people go, just not for me.... I know it's just me but for 15 years I could go ride everything I wanted to, and never wait more than 10 mins maybe 15 for any ride.... There isn't a ride in the world that I would wait 20 mins for.... I do go to shows and fireworks cause my wife likes them.... I was so bummed after how much less we were able to do and enjoy after our last two trips with fast pass+ that I am sending her and my daughter alone in Oct... I don't want to waste my vacation days on a trip that I don't think is worth it.... FAIR is when you wake up in the morning and go to a park, and everyone has the same chance, if you don't want to go at rope drop that's your choice......

I don't think that is fair either. Many people that go to Disney have young children and/or special needs children and simply do not have the choice to be at RD. So their option before was wait in hours+ long lines or don't do certain attractions. I can certainly see your point, and I hope that you can see mine. Different people have different opinions on what they consider fair.

One can't be all about rides like Jungle Cruise and Haunted Mansion and Buzz Lightyear? Sorry, but my local 6 flags doesn't have rides like that. Nor do they have much of anything that my entire family...3 year old included...can do together. I don't go to Disney for thrill rides. I go to Disney for rides that my family can enjoy together as a family. I can't find that in my local parks. My local parks are either like 6 flags, where the young ones are left out, or are *for* the young ones but the rides have *maximum* height restrictions and adults aren't allowed to ride with the child.

That's why Walt built Disneyland. So there was a place for adults and children to experience the park together. Rides and all.

One certainly can, but that is almost NEVER what people are talking about on these boards. It is always 7DMT, or RnRC, or other top tier thrill attractions. You can get a FP+ for the rides you just mentioned right now, for today. In fact, that is what has led to a lot of complaining here, is that people do not want FP+s for those.

 

[bpadair32]

I'm curious. Do you honestly think that people believe they can't ride something if they can't get a FP?

I don't believe that they think they can't ride something, I think they know that for some rides they are going to have an hour or more wait if they don't have a FP for it and that is unacceptable to them.

 

[Angel Ariel]

One certainly can, but that is almost NEVER what people are talking about on these boards. It is always 7DMT, or RnRC, or other top tier thrill attractions. You can get a FP+ for the rides you just mentioned right now, for today. In fact, that is what has led to a lot of complaining here, is that people do not want FP+s for those.

I'm still confused as to how wanting a FP+ for SDMT or RNRC or any thrill attraction means you're "only at WDW for the rides"? I love the shows and could spend all day watching them. I also love the thrill rides, and love the non-thrill rides. The black and whiteness of the reply is what I'm having an issue with. There's lots of grey in the world.

 

[bpadair32]

I'm still confused as to how wanting a FP+ for SDMT or RNRC or any thrill attraction means you're "only at WDW for the rides"? I love the shows and could spend all day watching them. I also love the thrill rides, and love the non-thrill rides. The black and whiteness of the reply is what I'm having an issue with. There's lots of grey in the world.

I was responding to a specific post in which the poster stated I only go for the rides.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I don't think that is fair either. Many people that go to Disney have young children and/or special needs children and simply do not have the choice to be at RD. So their option before was wait in hours+ long lines or don't do certain attractions. I can certainly see your point, and I hope that you can see mine. Different people have different opinions on what they consider fair.

We have a young child, and she has special needs. Our option before was never to wait in hours+ lines. On our 2 previous trips with her we never waited more than 20-30 mins for anything. That includes shows, thrill rides, and non thrill rides alike. Legacy FP was a big part of that. We did more waiting last year, under FP+, than we did on those two trips.

I can certainly understand your experience may have been different. But your experience does not speak to everyone's experience.

 

[bpadair32]

We have a young child, and she has special needs. Our option before was never to wait in hours+ lines. On our 2 previous trips with her we never waited more than 20-30 mins for anything. That includes shows, thrill rides, and non thrill rides alike. Legacy FP was a big part of that. We did more waiting last year, under FP+, than we did on those two trips.

I can certainly understand your experience may have been different. But your experience does not speak to everyone's experience.

I never said that it did. The point of these threads is to give your own experience/opinion. The only thing I have to base my opinion on is my experience, so that is what I am going with. If your experience was different, you likely have a different opinion and that is perfectly valid, but it does not mean that I am wrong, nor does it mean that your experience is the same for everyone.

 

[MouseEarsJenny]

Could you explain how you spent "so much less time" planning? I'm curious, I had family trips before FP+ and with FP+, and for both trips we planned what days we were visiting which park, but with FP+ the simple fact that you are picking rides and times resulted in more planning, not less.

We're detailed planners. We plan every nearly every minute of our vacations (at least up to about lunch time, after which point we randomly stroll and spontaneously enjoy what's available). We use touring plans, and apps, and are constantly on this board (I lurk more than my husband, who posts nearly daily). If I were planning a trip prior to FP+, I would have spent hours researching wait times and the best time to get a paper fastpass, and figuring out strategy to make sure that we could get on a new ride with a minimal wait. We'd have one plan for if fastpasses were available at X time, and another plan for if they were available at Y time, and a third plan for if they weren't available at all... and all of that would have to be decided on the fly, in the park. I've sat at the turnstiles at Hollywood Studios, still adjusting our plans to make maximum use of our time based on how far back we were in the rope drop line. (In fairness, that time we had three fastpasses each in hand from the year you could get magic fastpasses for volunteering, and I was still figuring out which rides I wanted to use them on. We ended up riding Toy Story back to back four times, lol.)

Now I know when fast passes are available. In fact, I know exactly when I am visiting three headliners (or one and two minor rides) per park. So I implemented my usual rope drop strategy, plugged in the fastpass times, and I was done. No alternate plans, no planning when to pick up fastpasses (thereby losing minutes I could be riding other things). I planned once, didn't have to look up a single wait time, and know what I will get on at the park and when, barring unforeseen ride closures. So I spent "much less time" planning.

 

[MrInfinity]

It should be noted that no one who arrived at Rope Drop and headed to a FP- machine got shut out. Ever.

The paper passes to A&E ran out w/in minutes of opening the gates so you were not certain to get one just by showing up. That's still the only thing you're not certain to get now, so this argument of yours doesn't hold up.

And for about 6-8 months, 7DMT might have caused that number to grow to three.) So it cannot be denied that there was a ride where you might have to wait 30 minutes to get your ticket. But Rope Droppers always got a ticket. Always.

What do you mean 6-8 months... SDMT is still selling out w/in a week of the 60-day mark and we're 18 months into its opening. TSMM vs SDMT is not even a comparison. It is no problem to get TSMM FP+'s, and it typically had the 30-min waits for FP's. SDMT, if it was to have gone on FP-, would have been far busier.

the Rope Drop strategy while inconvenient and sub-optimal for many people's lifestyle, resulted in 100% success in getting a ticket for some hour of the day.

It resulted in 100% success only for that small subset of people (around 10% of guests) who knew / attempted this by being there at rope drop and unintuitively heading for a kiosk rather than riding a ride or taking pictures. FP+ on the other hand is 95% (using your number) successful among most guests now using FP+.

So what is better... 100% success for 10% of the guests and 0% success for 90% of the guests
Or... 95% success for 80% of the guests and 5% success for 20% of the guests.

As usual, the pro-FP- case centers on the fact that you were in the 10% that used it (like me). It was so good for us because it was not used by most other guests.

Or 99%. But it isn't 100% as it was for Rope Droppers in the past.

100% for Rope Droppers is not a relevant number. There is no goal to make a success rate of 100% for a small subset of guests -- unless that subset is more profitable, like oh, say, onsite vs offsite perks. This was the biggest FAILURE of FP-, that it was something that became so skewed that a small group used it extensively but most guests did not use it at all.

Keep in mind too, that altho getting a FP- was certain to TSMM, it's DEFINITELY certain now. And, you can ride it at rope drop. Everyone who wants a TSMM FP+ can get one these days, and still rope drop something else, or, not have to rope drop at all. That's one thing that makes FP+ so much better. Before, you could get one if you got up early. Now you can get one and don't have to get up early. And you can pick the return time, and not have to go to the ride twice, and all the other benefits.

I know that my wife would rather have me cursing the computer in our house at 1:00 a.m. than have her cursing me at 6:30 a.m. on a Disney Bus!

Exactly. Instead of having to follow the rope drop strategy to have a chance of getting TSMM, now there are a ton of strategies that lead to just about everyone who wants one getting one. It also prevents people from taking 2, which is nice as well.

 

[JimmyV]

When I say that, let me say that I got FP for Soarin' the first two years it was open when the standby wait time was regularly 2 hours or more. I also got Expedition Everest the first two years that was opened and when it always had insanely long lines. All that is to say that FP at that time seemed pretty reasonable. You get to the park, you get your FP. If you're lucky you get a second one. If you're extremely lucky you get a third.

I think this speaks more to the point that FP- (in the early days of Soarin' and EE) was underutilized than it does to the inherent fairness of the system. I agree that one could walk right up to the FP machine in the Soarin' building and grab a FP right in front of the noses of the people who had waited 120 minutes in the standby line. For the most part, that just meant that many of the people who had waited in that line were clueless.

These boards are kind of a vacuum chamber, and you are going to hear from a lot more people that had problems than did not.

Sound does not travel through a vacuum.

I don't think that is fair either. Many people that go to Disney have young children and/or special needs children and simply do not have the choice to be at RD. So their option before was wait in hours+ long lines or don't do certain attractions. I can certainly see your point, and I hope that you can see mine.

What you are describing is a "solution to a problem" or a "workaround" for a real problem to which one cannot be dismissive. But it is an issue encountered by a small minority of overall guests. It is great that the solution exists for the people who you describe and I am certain that the new system has improved their touring immensely. So, yes, I see your point. But it isn't really one of "fairness". It is one of problem solving. "Equality" and "fairness" can never really be resolved when it comes to FP+ (or any commodity) because people naturally are self-interested. And when they spend thousands of dollars on their vacations, their self-interests become even greater. All of this was summed up tightly by Vilfredo Pareto.

 

[Lucius Best]

It resulted in 100% success only for that small subset of people (around 10% of guests) who knew / attempted this by being there at rope drop and unintuitively heading for a kiosk rather than riding a ride or taking pictures. FP+ on the other hand is 95% (using your number) successful among MOST guests now using FP+.

So what is better... 100% success for 10% of the guests and 0% success for 90% of the guests
Or... 95% success for 80% of the guests and 5% success for 20% of the guests.

My brain hurts, I don't know where these numbers came from, and I don't know how "success" is defined, so I can't really say what is better, and better for who?

 

[mesaboy2]

Different people have different opinions on what they consider fair.

Yes.

However:

Any change was going to upset some people that the old system worked well for. But the fact is that it is more fair that people do not HAVE to be at rope drop for a chance to experience all of the attractions.

Perhaps "my opinion" would have worked better here.

 

[bpadair32]

Yes.

However:



Perhaps "my opinion" would have worked better here.

Clearly it is my opinion. That is all these discussion boards are is people's opinion. I think that goes without saying.

 

[aprincessatlast]

Now I know when fast passes are available. In fact, I know exactly when I am visiting three headliners (or one and two minor rides) per park. So I implemented my usual rope drop strategy, plugged in the fastpass times, and I was done. No alternate plans, no planning when to pick up fastpasses (thereby losing minutes I could be riding other things). I planned once, didn't have to look up a single wait time, and know what I will get on at the park and when, barring unforeseen ride closures. So I spent "much less time" planning.

You seem like a good person to pick their brain on the new system. I could never be as detailed as you but we are thinking of traveling during second highest peak week, so I may need to try. So may I ask when did you plan your fast passes for ? morning/mid afternoon/ evening. I plan on trying the rope drop thing for the first time ever and was unsure when to look to book the fast passes for. I think rope drop is 7am that week but was wondering if we should book for evening or book early in am and take chances on the SDFP?

As far as the original topic of the thread. We went all the time under the old fastpass system however we have only been 1x in 5 years with the new system. We were not big fans as we noticed the effect on lines for the smaller rides that used to be walk ons. Other than that having rides booked was fine. We really disliked the pre vacation part of the planning. It has become part of Disney though so we have decided to just go with it. Not much use in fighting it now.

 

[mesaboy2]

The paper passes to A&E ran out w/in minutes of opening the gates so you were not certain to get one just by showing up.

What do you mean 6-8 months... SDMT is still selling out w/in a week of the 60-day mark and we're 18 months into its opening. TSMM vs SDMT is not even a comparison. It is no problem to get TSMM FP+'s, and it typically had the 30-min waits for FP's. SDMT, if it was to have gone on FP-, would have been far busier.


It resulted in 100% success only for that small subset of people (around 10% of guests) who knew / attempted this by being there at rope drop and unintuitively heading for a kiosk rather than riding a ride or taking pictures. FP+ on the other hand is 95% (using your number) successful among MOST guests now using FP+.

So what is better... 100% success for 10% of the guests and 0% success for 90% of the guests
Or... 95% success for 80% of the guests and 5% success for 20% of the guests.

As usual, the pro-FP- case centers on the fact that you were in the 10% that used it (like me). It was so good for us because it was not used by most other guests.

100% for Rope Droppers is not a relevant number. There is no goal to make a success rate of 100% for a small subset of guests -- unless that subset is more profitable, like oh, say, onsite vs offsite perks. This was the biggest FAILURE of FP-, that it was something that became so skewed that a small group used it extensively but most guests did not use it at all.

Keep in mind too, that altho getting a FP- was certain to TSMM, it's DEFINITELY certain now. And, you can ride it at rope drop. Everyone who wants a TSMM FP+ can get one these days, and still rope drop something else, or, not have to rope drop at all. That's one thing that makes FP+ so much better. Before, you could get one if you got up early. Now you can get one and don't have to get up early. And you can pick the return time, and not have to go to the ride twice, and all the other benefits.

Exactly. Instead of having to follow the rope drop strategy to have a chance of getting TSMM, now there are a ton of strategies that lead to just about everyone who wants one getting one. It also prevents people from taking 2, which is nice as well.

What paper passes to A&E?

 

[Lucius Best]

We're detailed planners. We plan every nearly every minute of our vacations

Fair enough. I agree, it is definitely an advantage knowing ahead of time exactly when your FP+ return time is going to be, compared to paper FP when you never knew exactly what that return window would be when you got to the kiosk. But I'm going to guess you are in the small minority doing that much planning down to the minute. For most people who never planned to that level of detail, FP+ requires more planning than they are used to, and for some people, more planning than they desire to do.

 

[mesaboy2]

Clearly it is my opinion. That is all these discussion boards are is people's opinion. I think that goes without saying.

If that were true, I would not be active here.

 

[JimmyV]

The paper passes to A&E ran out w/in minutes of opening the gates so you were not certain to get one just by showing up.

Where was the paper Fast Pass machines for A&E? I don't recall ever seeing one?

What do you mean 6-8 months... SDMT is still selling out w/in a week of the 60-day mark and we're 18 months into its opening. TSMM vs SDMT is not even a comparison. It is no problem at all to get TSMM FP+'s, and it is the ride that typically had the 30-min waits for FP's in the morning.

You are trying to compare the "then" to the "now". Before FP+, TSMM was the single hardest FP to get, and the line for the machines typically backed up to the Little Mermaid theater. Getting in line at that point resulted in about a 30 minute wait for a ticket, and tickets lasted until about 11:00 on average. So Rope Droppers had a 100% success rate, and anyone who got into the park by 10:00-10:30 was pretty much guaranteed a Fast Pass. You've totally lost me on whatever point you are trying to make here. My point is that had 7DMT opened up under the old system, you would have had a very similar situation in the MK. A 30 minute line would have developed for that one ride. No such line ever developed for any other ride in the MK, and when the novelty of 7DMT wore off, the 30 minute line would have disappeared. (I put that time at 6-8 months. But you can fill in any timeframe you wish). The MK has too many other attractions that people would have been interested in for sprinting to 7DMT to have outlasted the ride's novelty. But over at DHS, the fervor for TSMM never seemed to die down and didn't show any signs of letting up. It was the single biggest FP problem. But it was unique and unfortunately, lots of people try to use that situation as being emblematic of FP in general, when it was not. The fact that it is easier to score a FP+ for TSMM is a direct result of tiering. When forced to make a choice, many people are opting for RnR, whereas in the past, they opted first for TSMM, and second for RnR, safe in the knowledge that by 11:00 a.m., they would have locked down both of those coveted rides.

It resulted in 100% success only for that small subset of people (around 10% of guests) who knew / attempted this by being there at rope drop and unintuitively heading for a kiosk rather than riding a ride or taking pictures.

. I think we are in agreement here. But again, we are talking about a stampede only to one attraction. So let's not tar the entire system because people at DHS stampeded to TSMM.

So what is better... 100% success for 10% of the guests and 0% success for 90% of the guests
Or... 95% success for 80% of the guests and 5% success for 20% of the guests.

As I pointed out, that is a question that only each family can answer. It is not irrational to prefer a system that ensures 100% success, but only if a certain amount of effort is exerted, especially if one is ready, willing and able to put in the effort. And if one is not ready, willing and/or able to put in the effort, it is not irrational for them to prefer a system that distributes the commodity in a different manner. I guess what frustrates me about your lengthy sermons is that I can easily concede that there are positives and negatives to both systems, and that I can see the arguments as to why one would prefer FP+ as well as the arguments as to why one would prefer the old system. Yet you seem to conclude that preference for FP+ is empirically provable, and that a preference for the old system is irrational. When you get to the point where you understand that preference for the old system is grounded in selfishness, and being selfish while on vacation is not always a bad thing, then I think that we will be on the same page.

 

[MrInfinity]

My brain hurts, I don't know where these numbers came from, and I don't know how "success" is defined, so I can't really say what is better, and better for who?

The numbers on FastPass usage were calculated extensively in the early FP+ threads when it was being rolled out. It was more or less shown that only around 10% of guests actually used FP- extensively, based on ride capacity, % of FP allocation, and attendance. Search back thru threads from 2014 if you're interested. Or I'd be happy to talk offline.

 

[MrInfinity]

Where was the paper Fast Pass machines for A&E? I don't recall ever seeing one?

They tried that card / reservation system for a while, that didn't work. It was essentially an off-grid FP-.

 

[Lucius Best]

The numbers on FastPass usage were calculated extensively in the early FP+ threads when it was being rolled out. It was more or less shown that only around 10% of guests actually used FP- extensively, based on ride capacity, % of FP allocation, and attendance. Search back thru threads from 2014 if you're interested. Or I'd be happy to talk offline.

That's fine, but I don't think those early FP- threads were completely unbiased. I vaguely recall questioning that "10%" number in a post long ago and being chastised, not interested in going down that road again. I also asked how "success" is defined. You say 10% used FP- "extensively". But then claim 95% have success with FP+ most of the time, I don't know what success means, it seems like you're comparing apples to oranges. Certainly 95% of guests are not using FP+ extensively.

And I think the point is moot anyway, whether FP- or FP+ was/is a success to an individual person or family is going to depend on that individual, what they like to see/do and how they like to do it, and if they are getting more or less done with FP+ compared to FP-. And whether FP+ is a success to Disney as a corporation isn't based on utilization, it's going to be based on revenue/attendance.