More updated Fastpass+ information

[MikeandReneePlus5]

We can discuss this topic rationally, if you wish. I won't be wading through buckets and buckets of hyperbole, however.

But alas, this system is not predicated upon making things better for an individual, it is predicated upon making it better for the whole.

These two sentences sort of sum up half the posts in this thread, if not more!

 

[Brian Noble]

He's practically begging people to pop in with posts like 'Dollywood doesn't do that'.

BTW, I don't think that Dollywood does that.

Ah, but they do!

I think I already linked to this before, but:
http://www.dollywood.com/themepark/guest-services/q2q-line-system.aspx

They've been using Q2Q since at least the summer of '09, which is the last time I was there.

 

[DorianDonP]

Anecdotally, I have been to Dollywood once. They did that selling FOTL type thing in addition to the ticket price. That was the first time I was aware of such a thing. I'm such a big Disney fan I pretty much spend all theme park dollars there. I had bought our theme park tickets in advance. We arrived the next morning and that's when I realized we were going to have a croppy theme park experience unless we shelled out another $$ each. That was not what I planned for so we did not. We did, in fact have a croppy theme park experience because basically our admission price paid for the costs of keeping the park running, not for us to actually ride rides. We could easily buy season passes to Dollywood but it left a bad taste in my mouth. If you can't have a decent park experience without shelling out more money than the ticket price, it smells like scam to me.

Fast forward to our Universal experience where my sister had bought us tickets. Again, it was last minute and we did not know about the FOTL thing. We spent about 8 hours in the park and rode 4 rides, none of them headliners. Except for 20 minutes or so to grab a burger we were in lines for those four mediocre rides while we watched FOTL people ride over and over. Again, our admission price did not pay for a decent park experience. We were paying for the upkeep of the park for the people that really mattered... those staying on-site. We will not be returning to these parks either.

So... if this FP+ is equal we might not like it but we will likely still come. If they go to this FOTL ride-over-and over for deluxe guests then once again we will not pay admission price to cover the costs of running the parks just to have a croppy theme park experience.

It's not a matter of whether or not we could pay for deluxe. If we went less often, I'm sure we could. However, what would really be happening is that those without the $$$ to pay deluxe would be paying for the upkeep of the park, not for a pleasant park experience for themselves.

If Disney becomes that, then it wouldn't be the kind of place I'd want to visit. A little too Brave New World for me.

The thing is, Disney is already that for some guest...even WITH the current fast pass system. A guest could show up past noon, find all of the fastpasses to major headliners gone or into the late evening, and spend 8 hours in lines and only ride 4 decent attractions.

Getting to a theme park at rope drop, or during non-peak times can get you a decent experience without express just like at Disney. A little bit of planning is essential for any decent theme park experience. Your post sounds more like a "I didn't know how to plan" problem which contributed to that lousy experience, and this very thread has stated that not planning/not knowing is just as big of a problem for Disney guest.

 

[Brian Noble]

The thing is, Disney is already that for some guest if they don't plan, even with fastpass. A guest could show up at noon, find all of the fastpasses to major headliners gone or into the late evening, and spent 8 hours in lines and only ride 4 decent attractions.

My brother's first ever visit to a Disney park with his family went something very like this. At the time, my SIL was working for the Michigan Alumni Association, and they were in town helping to host the alumni travel package for the Rose Bowl.

They had a good chunk of one day off, so they went to Disneyland. Mind you, this is between Christmas and New years, the busiest time of the year. They arrived at about 10:30 AM (shockingly, the park was not at capacity yet). They spent about six hours there. In that time, they had lunch, saw the parade, and saw three "attractions" (one of which was a Pooh meet-n-greet).

But, you know what? They had a great time---so much so, that they went back the next year. But, they did go back with a plan!

 

[Rosanne]

The thing is, Disney is already that for some guest if they don't plan, even with fastpass. A guest could show up at noon, find all of the fastpasses to major headliners gone or into the late evening, and spent 8 hours in lines and only ride 4 decent attractions.

Getting to a theme park at rope drop, or during non-peak times can get you a decent experience without express just like at Disney. A little bit of planning is essential for any decent theme park experience. Your post sounds more like a "I didn't know how to plan" problem, and this very thread has stated that it's a huge problem for Disney guest.

And there's the difference. At Disney, if you do minimal planning and research you can have an excellent theme park experience. Perhaps you missed the part that we were there at opening for Universal. Even with the minimal time I was given to plan (since my sister surprised us with tickets) life has taught me that the earlier you get somewhere (not saying three hours before opening) the more likely you are to be able to access at least a few rides before the big crowds come.

The problem with the kind of FOTL access that allows certain guests unlimited over-and-over rides with little to no wait is that the ratio of time between those with and those without becomes untenable.

It did not matter that we had only 12 people in front of us after 1 1/2 hours of waiting for a Dr. Seuss ride that claimed a 30 minute wait. We had to wait an additional 1/2 hour because the unlimited ride side was never expected to wait even a minute for the standby line to let a couple of cars go.

Also, DorianDonP, even if I had known the FOTL thing existed ahead of time I would not have paid the $50 a piece for us to have limited FOTL access. And, knowing it exists now, I would not book an on-site hotel because I think the concept is repugnant.

 

[SharonS]

Offended is far too strong a word, but Disney does sell a more adult, upscale, relaxing atmosphere as a benefit of their deluxe resorts, particularly the Grand Floridian, Poly, and Yacht/Beach Club. They host weddings and are popular choices for honeymoons. As such they do have to think about the effect a ride-related booking incentive would have on the overall guest balance at those resorts. The last thing a Disney bride dropping $25K on her big day wants is a lobby full of kids whose parents decided to squeeze their family of 5 into a single deluxe room rather than booking a value suite because the deluxe offers a better park experience, or a couple-few of those kids splashing around in the hot tub when the newlyweds are trying to enjoy their evening. And the next thing you know, travel sites start recommending the Waldorf or Four Seasons rather than a Disney resort for couples looking for a romantic getaway.

In my humble opinion, they already have changed that atmosphere by adding DVC at those premium resorts. I do belong to DVC , Nd I chuckle at the image of DVC members pulling up to the Grand with their vehicles piled high with food supplies, etc.

 

[Robbi]

And there's the difference. At Disney, if you do minimal planning and research you can have an excellent theme park experience. Perhaps you missed the part that we were there at opening for Universal. Even with the minimal time I was given to plan (since my sister surprised us with tickets) life has taught me that the earlier you get somewhere (not saying three hours before opening) the more likely you are to be able to access at least a few rides before the big crowds come.

The problem with the kind of FOTL access that allows certain guests unlimited over-and-over rides with little to no wait is that the ratio of time between those with and those without becomes untenable.

It did not matter that we had only 12 people in front of us after 1 1/2 hours of waiting for a Dr. Seuss ride that claimed a 30 minute wait. We had to wait an additional 1/2 hour because the unlimited ride side was never expected to wait
even a minute for the standby line to let a couple of cars go.

Also, DorianDonP, even if I had known the FOTL thing existed ahead of time I would not have paid the $50 a piece for us to have limited FOTL access. And, knowing it exists now, I would not book an on-site hotel because I think the concept is repugnant.

Wow, that wasn't our Universal experience at all. Of course FOTL guests get through the line more quickly but it's usually let 3 groups of FOTL guests board and then a group of standby guests. In fact, we've gotten annoyed because we tend to develop a line entitlement attitude and feel the staff allows too many standby guests to board.

 

[DorianDonP]

And there's the difference. At Disney, if you do minimal planning and research you can have an excellent theme park experience. Perhaps you missed the part that we were there at opening for Universal. Even with the minimal time I was given to plan (since my sister surprised us with tickets) life has taught me that the earlier you get somewhere (not saying three hours before opening) the more likely you are to be able to access at least a few rides before the big crowds come.

The problem with the kind of FOTL access that allows certain guests unlimited over-and-over rides with little to no wait is that the ratio of time between those with and those without becomes untenable.

It did not matter that we had only 12 people in front of us after 1 1/2 hours of waiting for a Dr. Seuss ride that claimed a 30 minute wait. We had to wait an additional 1/2 hour because the unlimited ride side was never expected to wait even a minute for the standby line to let a couple of cars go.

Also, DorianDonP, even if I had known the FOTL thing existed ahead of time I would not have paid the $50 a piece for us to have limited FOTL access. And, knowing it exists now, I would not book an on-site hotel because I think the concept is repugnant.

I believe you can do minimal research and have an excellent time at the Universal parks with express as well. I just had one about three weeks ago. Just decided to stop by Universal around 11 to try the new Dispicable Me. No express. Did everything I wanted to do without waiting in any lines longer than 30 minutes. In fact, Dispicable Me was the only 30 min wait. Everything else was 5-15 minutes. Walked and didn't run around. Would have been too tired to stop by Disney and do the same thing.

I'm sorry you had such a lousy experience, but I can say with full confidence that your non-express experience definitely isn't the norm. I'm constantly reading the Disney and Universal forums, and most people tour without express and have a great time. Just a "pinch" of planning can go a long way; at least most of the time.

My biggest point in all of this is the disaster days are present with Disney guest too. This thread has talked about leveling playing fields and such.

 

[Planogirl]

Wow, that wasn't our Universal experience at all. Of course FOTL guests get through the line more quickly but it's usually let 3 groups of FOTL guests board and then a group of standby guests. In fact, we've gotten annoyed because we tend to develop a line entitlement attitude and feel the staff allows too many standby guests to board.

It hasn't been our experience either. We rarely stay onsite and have yet to buy Express Passes. However everyone's expectations vary wildly (and Disney would be wise to remember that).

 

[Princess Sleepy]

This! We wouldn't want a FP for TSSM (I know, one of the few people who don't ) but would want one for ToT and Star Tours but no other ride in the park. To be offered anything else would be a total waste for us. At AK, we would prefer 2 Dinosaur FP's and one Safari FP. Why we couldn't do this, I don't know... I'm sure other people would prefer "our" EE FP spaces.

Looks like the new app should also include a way to swap your FPs with other guests.

 

[Wood Nymph]

I too am pretty confident same day FPs will be available. So all will be grand for the PP. As long as when they end the day in Epcot, they are happy getting same day FPs for Nemo and Maelstrom.

This is how I feel.

It appears to me that some of the concern about the 3 FP+ per day plan seems to be that all the good fast passes will be taken up by the plus users and there won’t be any left for guests who choose to use the current fast pass system. What if Disney has taken that into account with their data crunching and have determined that both the plus and the current fast pass program can run concurrently and provide more people with a positive experience. That could be why they changed from a test plan with 4FP+’s per day to the proposed 3FP+ per day.

For the sake of simplicity, let’s divide park guests into two groups:

1. The limited guest – this is the guest who is limited by wants or needs, i.e. they don’t want to stand in a line for Space Mountain for two hours or they have young kids who need a nap or to go to bed early, for example

2. The unlimited guest – they can make rope drop, can split up for the mad dash to get fast passes, can ride everything they want, twice, by 11am because they know how to work the parks, can participate in EMR’s, and are able to stay all day in the parks, if need be, to get the best use out of their fast passes

Right now WDW has many features in place for the unlimited guest. The fast passes, early and late hours, parades and fireworks and shows that get the crowds away from the rides. All of these features help to disperse the crowds throughout the parks. So what about the limited guests who would like to be able to ride TSM in the afternoon without having the whole family show up at rope drop? Maybe they are from the west coast and rope drop is just too early for them. Or the limited family who would love to see Enchanted Tales with Belle, but their three and five year olds, along with grumpy grandpa, don’t want to stand in a long line.

It appears as if the FP+ system is planning to improve the park experience for the limited guest. This new system could work very nicely for those guests. The limited guest might be a rather large percentage of the daily park crowd. And trying to improve their experience would be a big Win-Win for both Disney and the limited guests.

But they can't afford to increase the satisfaction level for the limited guests by decreasing the satisfaction level for the unlimited guests. Disney would want both groups to enjoy their parks, because both groups are valuable to them. So I would think they would try to make sure that the new plus program doesn’t make the whole experience worse for everyone. That is why I don’t think that the plus users are going to use up all the available fast passes on any given day. The system would be adjusted to prevent it. Right now the current fast pass system uses up all the fast passes for popular rides, so why would they create a system that would duplicate an existing problem? I don't think that is their goal. They would want to create a more equitable system that satisfies the most people. And I think they are trying to do that with the plus system. If it doesn't work, then it will be back to the drawing board.

 

[Robo]

So I would think they would try to make sure that the new plus program doesn’t make the whole experience worse for everyone. That is why I don’t think that the plus users are going to use up all the available fast passes on any given day. The system would be adjusted to prevent it. Right now the current fast pass system uses up all the fast passes for popular rides, so why would they create a system that would duplicate an existing problem? I don't think that is their goal. They would want to create a more equitable system that satisfies the most people. And I think they are trying to do that with the plus system.

Because "good intentions" won't create a higher number of maximum riders per hour on a popular attraction.

If it doesn't work, then it will be back to the drawing board.

The problem many of us have is that they may decide (like a lot of companies) that their first "drawing board sessions" are
enough and we all will have to live with the outcome, at least for a very long time.

 

[dadddio]

If I hate ToT but love RnR, I really would prefer to have two for RnR instead of one of each. (And for every person who loves RnR over ToT, there will be one who loves ToT over RnR). But alas, this system is not predicated upon making things better for an individual, it is predicated upon making it better for the whole.

I noticed that elementary school analogies are popular around here, so here is one:

At a child's birthday party, both cake and ice cream are often served. The mere fact that a child doesn't like ice cream doesn't mean that he can have two pieces of cake because that would mean that some other kid can't have cake.

It is good for the group as a whole that one kid isn't allowed to hog the cake.

 

[dadddio]

Not everything is speculation. Some elements have been announced from Disney or what we can already see being implemented. For us personally, the enforced return times doesn't work for us. Regardless of whether we can book it 6 months in advance (something we would NEVER do, it's hard enough with meal reservations) or if we book it two hours prior to wanting to ride, it doesn't work for us. This element alone means for us, FP+ won't work for our family.

That's probably the basic way we differ.

Because of the way ADRs work, I pretty much know exactly what parks I will be in on what days six months prior. Given that, it is simply to choose our favorite rides in each park and choose FP+ times 2 months prior.

It's funny that the irritant of ADRs actually makes this task super simple.

 

[Tekneek]

That's probably the basic way we differ.

Because of the way ADRs work, I pretty much know exactly what parks I will be in on what days several months out. Given that, it is simply to choose our favorite rides in each park and choose FP+ times 2 months prior.

I am guessing you don't park hop?

 

[Dan Murphy]

I knew the instant I read it that it would. Surely you knew the same--this isn't your first rodeo.

Haha. I presumed it would get some conversation, like other similar updates have over the past months, but not this much.

And yes, I have been to a few rodeos here over past years, mostly from past days on the community board, not so much here on this board.

 

[Love Tink]

Wow, that wasn't our Universal experience at all. Of course FOTL guests get through the line more quickly but it's usually let 3 groups of FOTL guests board and then a group of standby guests. In fact, we've gotten annoyed because we tend to develop a line entitlement attitude and feel the staff allows too many standby guests to board.

Ha! We found ourselves thinking the same way, "We've had to wait *four* minutes. Huff!"

I think Universal handles the express/stand by mix much better than Disney does. At a lot of the Universal rides, they just use a dedicated row or car for express users. They also merge the lines with a better ratio, in my opinion.

I think the only time one could legitimately argue that the express pass users made it impossible to enjoy the park is over the most super busy weeks of the year - when any theme park is going to be difficult. And even then, arriving early and having a plan would alleviate a lot of that.

 

[Disney_Princess83]

That's probably the basic way we differ.

Because of the way ADRs work, I pretty much know exactly what parks I will be in on what days several months out. Given that, it is simply to choose our favorite rides in each park and choose FP+ times 2 months prior.

We make one ADR everyday. However we only ever make a breakfast or dinner reservation so that we can hop wherever we want. We have done CRT at 8am and hopped to AK by 9:30am. because we weren't really in the mood for MK that day. If I made my FP arrangements for MK under this assumption, it might mean I couldn't get any FP for AK. As have AP's so we hop quite often. Aside from the first few days (it's always MK, AK and then EPCOT) and the last few days (EPCOT, AK and MK) everything in the middle we wake up and see how we feel.

 

[BridgetR3]

I am guessing you don't park hop?

Not the PP you were referring to but.....

We park hop and we still know what parks we will be in on what days because of crowd calendars, EMH's (while they last) and special events. I usually know this at least 60 days in advance. It's the way we plan. We don't just wake up and decide where to go that day. But to each his own.....

 

[dadddio]

Ah, but they do!

I think I already linked to this before, but:
http://www.dollywood.com/themepark/guest-services/q2q-line-system.aspx

They've been using Q2Q since at least the summer of '09, which is the last time I was there.

I read your post after I had made mine. I didn't remember that they used that and didn't find anything when I popped over to their website.

Still, the mere fact that others use such a system doesn't mean that Disney will. Disney doesn't appear to be having great difficulties filling up the deluxes, after all.