Monorail Rumors?

[Cogswel_Cogs]

They should make a roller coaster transporter. That would be the coolest.

 

[arthuruscg]

It would also be magical to be transported on trains that looked like steam locomotives.
Now, the monorail is more futuristic and fits in better with Epcot. But with proper Disney Imageering train/light rail would be a great addition to HS and Animal Kingdom.

Also, why can't the monorail be at ground level? At gound level the cost per mile would be cheaper.

 

[doconeill]

Also, why can't the monorail be at ground level? At gound level the cost per mile would be cheaper.

It could be at ground level, but only with a dedicated right of way - no crossings of any kind. Unlike standard rail, the gaps required would be too big for other vehicles to cross without some sort of retractable covering, which would be expensive and creates additional points of failure.

Then there's the problem of having a power provided nearer to where people can come into contact with it, unless you change them all to overhead catenary wires or have the trainsets able to operate on both.

 

[DCTooTall]

It would also be magical to be transported on trains that looked like steam locomotives.
Now, the monorail is more futuristic and fits in better with Epcot. But with proper Disney Imageering train/light rail would be a great addition to HS and Animal Kingdom.

Also, why can't the monorail be at ground level? At gound level the cost per mile would be cheaper.

Not by much, if any. Because the Monorail straddles the rail, You'd still need to either dig a ditch and then place the beam into the trough you've built (and secure it) or place the beam at ground level and make sure you have proper drainage and other issues resolved to keep the beams level and in place.

The cost advantage of a more traditional light-rail system comes from several places.

1. The Train vehicles themselves. They are much more of a commodity since they are used in many different locations, so it's easier to get good pricing on the vehicles, and their components.

2. The Rail Bed/ground prep. When you get down to it, There isn't much work needed to prepare your site for laying the rails. All you need is a level place to put the rails, and a rail bed... usually either rocks with ties (to secure the rails too), or a full concrete bed with built in drainage.

3. The rails themselves and control/power systems. Again... A commoditized item. For all intents and purposes, All rail systems, from commuter, to subway, to Light rail tend to utilize the same type of rails. (I'm not getting into people-mover type trains commonly found in airports). The biggest differences come with things like track gauge (How close together the rails are). Switches are also much less expensive and complicated to add to a standard rail system.


Placing a monorail on Ground level you would end up eliminating cost saving points #1 and 3. Non-standard rail gear, and the special pre-stressed cast concrete monorail needed for the monorail to straddle.

Disney's Layout in general would eliminate cost savings point #2 for most of the routes that any sort of rail expansion would likely need to take for the system to be justifiable. (Either monorail or Regular rail) There is just too much traffic, road, and pedestrian traffic around the resort to allow for at-grade crossings, so with either a monorail expansion, or a more traditional light rail addition/expansion, They would need to build UP to allow the train vehicles to cross above the existing traffic patterns. (Honestly, I can't even think of any way you could do a "grade crossing" with a monorail track...without maybe some complicated drawbridge like method to bridge the gap needed by the train so it could straddle the rail).

 

[DCTooTall]

Then there's the problem of having a power provided nearer to where people can come into contact with it, unless you change them all to overhead catenary wires or have the trainsets able to operate on both.

TBH, I didn't even touch on this issue with my response because it's something both regular rail and monorails would have to deal with.

With the storms in Florida, Would a Catenary system even really be feasible? I can't help but wonder the the risks of high winds/hurricanes/etc would be enough that a suspended power wire system would be ruled out on potential safety and reliability concerns. (plus there is the Aesthetic concerns. Personally, I don't recall ever seeing any poles/suspended wires anywhere within the Disney property.)

If they went with the 3rd rail option popular in many subway and mass transit systems, You'd have the same type of issue with power system access.

 

[chartle]

With these last posts I just kind of realized why monorails only have one rail, its cheaper.

If you think about it, there is only one concrete beam that needs to be built. If it was elevated light rail they would have to build a much wider platform. Pretty much a road bed in the air with tracks.

So I guess because its elevated is the reason for the one rail. If its was at ground level there is no need that kind of support so they would use more traditional railroad style tracks.

But yes traditional at grade light rail wouldn't help. There are no routes that don't cross multiple roads. Without about grade crossings you would have to wait for traffic like a bus or have the train have complete right of way like a train which would really gum up traffic in such a small area.

Subway anyone?




I'll take a Italian BMT on Wheat.

 

[doconeill]

TBH, I didn't even touch on this issue with my response because it's something both regular rail and monorails would have to deal with.

With the storms in Florida, Would a Catenary system even really be feasible? I can't help but wonder the the risks of high winds/hurricanes/etc would be enough that a suspended power wire system would be ruled out on potential safety and reliability concerns. (plus there is the Aesthetic concerns. Personally, I don't recall ever seeing any poles/suspended wires anywhere within the Disney property.)

If they went with the 3rd rail option popular in many subway and mass transit systems, You'd have the same type of issue with power system access.

I assume they thought of those concerns when they originally proposed the (I believe defunct) high speed rail project...most all high-speed rail systems I'm aware of use catenary.

 

[DCTooTall]

I assume they thought of those concerns when they originally proposed the (I believe defunct) high speed rail project...most all high-speed rail systems I'm aware of use catenary.

True. But the proposed High Speed Rail Project didn't take it thru areas as densely populated as the Disney Resort Guest areas this system would need to go. If a storm knocks down a live catenary wire on the high-speed route in the middle of I4 it wouldn't be as much of a safety concern as one knocked down next to the Boardwalk. I'm also betting that the High-Speed Rail project would've been able to absorb any storm-related downtime better than a primary guest transportation system on the Disney Resort.

 

[KYMickey]

Subway anyone?

I think any subway system would have to use submarines because of the groundwater level!

If you went to light rail it might be easier to have the major roads have the bridges instead of the rails.

 

[DCTooTall]

I think any subway system would have to use submarines because of the groundwater level!

If you went to light rail it might be easier to have the major roads have the bridges instead of the rails.

Well.... That would be ONE way to bring back 20K Leagues.

 

[tjkraz]

Do I believe that someone at TWDC was directed to look into mass transit alternatives? Sure. They'd be foolish to not periodically review new technologies and advancements.

Do I think there will be an expansion of the monorail system as we know it? No.

Do I think there will be other forms of mass transit implemented at WDW? Probably not. My suspicion is that the ROI is just too great a period to justify the investment. Running mass transit lines across property, purchasing vehicles, implementing control systems and maintenance facilities, etc....it's a massive project. It could take decades to break even on the investment. I don't think TWDC we know today is forward-thinking enough to risk that sort of money for a payoff that could be 20+ years down the road.

 

[chartle]

Do I believe that someone at TWDC was directed to look into mass transit alternatives? Sure. They'd be foolish to not periodically review new technologies and advancements.

Do I think there will be an expansion of the monorail system as we know it? No.

Do I think there will be other forms of mass transit implemented at WDW? Probably not. My suspicion is that the ROI is just too great a period to justify the investment. Running mass transit lines across property, purchasing vehicles, implementing control systems and maintenance facilities, etc....it's a massive project. It could take decades to break even on the investment. I don't think TWDC we know today is forward-thinking enough to risk that sort of money for a payoff that could be 20+ years down the road.

I also think large capital projects effect the balance sheet in a way that may do things like effect share holder value. While buses are a monthly expense. So its kind of an accounting or tax issue.

 

[manning]

But since it would have to cross roads, no different than bus travelwise and it still has all the problems of all tracked vehicles. Which is they are on a track and can't just move aside to let other vehicles around them when not if they breakdown.

You bring in the secret weapon...it's called a bridge.

 

[chartle]

You bring in the secret weapon...it's called a bridge.

So the light rail goes up and over the road?

For some reason there seems to be not a lot of bridges around WDW they even put a road under the water and made a ground level water bridge.

You still have issues with breakdowns. Someone talked about shutting down one track and running the trains in shuttle mode. In shuttle mode how many people can you move one train's worth at a time. How long before the lines build
and they have bring out the buses?

 

[doconeill]

So the light rail goes up and over the road?

For some reason there seems to be not a lot of bridges around WDW they even put a road under the water and made a ground level water bridge.

You still have issues with breakdowns. Someone talked about shutting down one track and running the trains in shuttle mode. In shuttle mode how many people can you move one train's worth at a time. How long before the lines build
and they have bring out the buses?

Typical light rail might move three buses worth I think.

Trains also can't typically handle grades like a car can. So if the rails are going over the bridge, the runup/rundown is going to be pretty long. And then you've lost a lot of the savings you had by putting it on the ground in the first place.

Bridges for the cars could handle bigger grades, but you wouldn't want bunch of them on the bigger roads. And road bridges would be more massive.

 

[arthuruscg]

Also, usually when you build a mass transit system, you lay 2 tracks basically a complete loop for stops in both directions. So, if you have a break down, you can single track the trains through the one section of the track with the problem. The current 2 track monorail system isn't designed to allow for fast switching that is needed to allow for single tracking and it will never be developed because of the mass of the track sections.

 

[DCTooTall]

So the light rail goes up and over the road?

For some reason there seems to be not a lot of bridges around WDW they even put a road under the water and made a ground level water bridge.

You still have issues with breakdowns. Someone talked about shutting down one track and running the trains in shuttle mode. In shuttle mode how many people can you move one train's worth at a time. How long before the lines build
and they have bring out the buses?

There are actually quite a few bridges around WDW. Think about every crossing over World Drive between 192 and the Magic Kingdom. Epcot Center Drive and it's bridge over Buena Vista, as well as the bridge at "Overpass Rd" and the loop into the EPCOT Entrance.

There is the Bridge near Animal Kingdom (by the McDonalds).

There is the bridge over the waterway between Crescent Lake and MGM. As well as the bridge over the waterway between EPCOT's International Gateway and the Boardwalk. (As well as the "hidden" pedestrian/water bridge between the International Gateway and the afore mentioned bridge.).

While there are a lot of Bridges around the resort, Disney generally seems to factor the "show" into it's design and placement of the bridges....at least with the older ones built before the pre-90's resort expansion.


And the idea isn't to run the trains in shuttle mode, it is to simply bypass the one section of track with issues utilizing a pair of switches. Think about your local mass transit system for a perfect operational example. You have 2 one-way tracks running parallell to each other (another advantage of Light-rail....with switching being so easy/fast compaired to a monorail, you can very easily run a simple A-B run without needing to build a loop to return B-A. It also allows for an easy addition of C, D, And E later by just expanding the rail). If you have a section of rail go down (or a train stuck at a station), You simply single-track around the blockage.

From a road standpoint, Think about your drive down a 2-lane road when they are doing construction on one of the shoulders. They set up flag-men to allow both directions to utilize the one remaining lane around the problem.

 

[chartle]

There are actually quite a few bridges around WDW. Think about every crossing over World Drive between 192 and the Magic Kingdom. Epcot Center Drive and it's bridge over Buena Vista, as well as the bridge at "Overpass Rd" and the loop into the EPCOT Entrance.

There is the Bridge near Animal Kingdom (by the McDonalds).

There is the bridge over the waterway between Crescent Lake and MGM. As well as the bridge over the waterway between EPCOT's International Gateway and the Boardwalk. (As well as the "hidden" pedestrian/water bridge between the International Gateway and the afore mentioned bridge.).

While there are a lot of Bridges around the resort, Disney generally seems to factor the "show" into it's design and placement of the bridges....at least with the older ones built before the pre-90's resort expansion.


And the idea isn't to run the trains in shuttle mode, it is to simply bypass the one section of track with issues utilizing a pair of switches. Think about your local mass transit system for a perfect operational example. You have 2 one-way tracks running parallell to each other (another advantage of Light-rail....with switching being so easy/fast compaired to a monorail, you can very easily run a simple A-B run without needing to build a loop to return B-A. It also allows for an easy addition of C, D, And E later by just expanding the rail). If you have a section of rail go down (or a train stuck at a station), You simply single-track around the blockage.

From a road standpoint, Think about your drive down a 2-lane road when they are doing construction on one of the shoulders. They set up flag-men to allow both directions to utilize the one remaining lane around the problem.

I do agree that I think for the older parts of WDW they are very careful about sight lines and how it effects the show. I think what makes the monorail so magical is that you are above it all when you arrive at either the MK or Epcot and get a great view.

I still think any kind of tracked vehicle just isn't flexible enough to handle the crowds at WDW. The monorail was great when it was one park, one water park, two hotels and a campground. Now with 20 or so hotels there is are just too many points going to too many points to make it work without either a lot of track switching or a lot guests transferring at stations.

On one of those "When are they going to expand the monorail?" threads someone brought up. "Well you would take a bus or the People mover to some sort of super TTC where you would board a monorail and maybe have to transfer to another monorail.

I thought of a perfect example of how they could test guest reaction. Everyone coming on a bus from say the All stars would be asked if they would like to be dropped off at the TTC to take the monorail in the MK for a more magical experience. How many do you think would get off?

 

[arthuruscg]

I thought of a perfect example of how they could test guest reaction. Everyone coming on a bus from say the All stars would be asked if they would like to be dropped off at the TTC to take the monorail in the MK for a more magical experience. How many do you think would get off?

Would the bus come more often?

 

[arthuruscg]

Given the # of people staying at the southern end of the property, I think it would make more sense to locate the Supper TTC to Epcot. From there it could be a single transfer from your resort to STTC to destination.

Example: All of the All star's could be picked up on 1 train (3 stops) the same train would also stop at Blizard Beach and then stop at STTC near Epcot. MK would still be serviced by the Mono Rail for the magical experience.

AKL and AKV could be picked up on 1 train (3 stops) the same train would also stop at AK and then join the same train line as All Star and then stop at STTC near Epcot.