Money and Contentment

[SEA333]

I have to agree with this. I work an average of 50-55 hours a week. My husband works from home, so his hours are a little more flexible and hard to count, but probably 35 hours a week. We get to do the "extras" in life because we work hard and earn the money to do so.

The fact that you are managing to raise 2 children working 75% of standard full time job without debt is incredible. But I wouldn't expect to be able to do much extra-curricular stuff like that on those hours.

Sigh. Again, OP is a hospital nurse. Their pay system is different than a normal 9-5 desk job. I believe it has been established already that she is considered "full time".

 

[JanaDee]

Dh and I both get bonuses in December, and they are not taxed for FED and State, just SS and Med only. This is generally what causes us to be writing a check to the IRS in April.

We lose 49% of DH's bonus to taxes and we still have to write a check to the IRS.

 

[MakiraMarlena]

I disagree on the no fee sports or activities for the children. You are doing your kids a dis-service if you have the money and are not allowing them to grow as individuals.

Fee Activities like dance, art, and sports are a great way to learn to be social and learn about the world around you. I would never take that away from my children if I could help it.

yeah but if it is a choice between paying for dance and art lessons and having enough $$ for them to go to college, which one would be more valuable for them unless they have a shot at becoming professional dancers or artists?

 

[Colleen27]

All those activities we think our kids need are not essential for children to have a great childhood. My generation didn't do anything when we were kids except play kickball, ride bikes, swim and camp with our families, yet I considerable my childhood to have been wonderful. Sometimes I see kids now being so stressed having to run here and there, every minute scheduled, eating in the car and no down time, for what? It's not like they will become professional dancers or pro-ball players! Let kids be kids and figure out how to entertain themselves.

You can't turn back the clock, though. Most parents these days aren't comfortable with the sort of impromptu, unorganized, often unsupervised play that was normal when we were kids so unless you are okay with your kids playing kickball, riding bikes, and swimming alone (or with a parent instead of peers) you'd probably want to sign them up for at least one or two of the activities that are keeping all their friends tied up in the evenings. There is a lot of grey area between "no fee activities" and being stressed out and overscheduled.

yeah but if it is a choice between paying for dance and art lessons and having enough $$ for them to go to college, which one would be more valuable for them unless they have a shot at becoming professional dancers or artists?

It depends on how you measure value. Personally I don't think it can be tallied on a ledger sheet, and that having a range of experiences in childhood shapes a child's personality and worldview in ways that don't translate to dollars and cents.

 

[crisi]

We lose 49% of DH's bonus to taxes and we still have to write a check to the IRS.

When both of us worked, we had to take 0 allowances and take out an extra few hundred a check. The issue was that his paycheck had us in one bracket, my paycheck had us in an even lower bracket, but when you combined our paychecks we bounced into a high bracket. Add in bonuses and then - and really the kicker - the dividends and capital gains that there was not withholding on, and we wrote a few big checks to the IRS before we started pulling out extra.

But that doesn't mean we paid more - it means the withholding tables are really set up for a single income family with no additional income - not what was our family with two salaries plus investment income.

 

[Dakota731]

Most parents these days aren't comfortable with the sort of impromptu, unorganized, often unsupervised play that was normal when we were kids

It doesn't always seem like it's for the children. I see a lot of unhappy whining kids being dragged from one activity to another whether they want to go or not. There are 3 and 4 year old toddlers getting a jump start on organized sports by parents hoping they will get a college scholarship when they are older. It's unrealistic and it doesn't lead to happiness or contentment for anyone in the family, not to mention the money it takes for private lessons, sports trainers etc.

 

[Marionnette]

It doesn't always seem like it's for the children. I see a lot of unhappy whining kids being dragged from one activity to another whether they want to go or not. There are 3 and 4 year old toddlers getting a jump start on organized sports by parents hoping they will get a college scholarship when they are older. It's unrealistic and it doesn't lead to happiness or contentment for anyone in the family, not to mention the money it takes for private lessons, sports trainers etc.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about many parents' motivations for enrolling their kids in extracurricular activities. Early sports and dance participation helps in the development of hand-eye coordination and gross motor skills. The child will benefit from these skills whether they go on to be the star quarterback at the state's flagship university or if they choose to become a licensed electrician. There are also social benefits to team participation that will help with group projects in school and work situations later in life.

That whining kid today that you see could be the same kid that bounces eagerly into their car seat for the ride to t-ball next week. We parents know how their interests (not to mention their moods) can ebb and flow like the tides! And the parents are probably more interested in getting the child some physical activity instead of sitting around playing a video game. Dreams of college scholarships are not what they are entertaining!

By no means do I advocate dragging an unwilling kid to activities that are bankrupting the family, but I see nothing harmful in exposing a child to number of varied experiences. Usually around the age of 10 or 11 they have discovered what they love and what they dislike. But if they have never tried youth soccer, they will never know that they much prefer to play basketball to kicking a ball around. Or that they would rather play a guitar than the drums. Yes, I was that t-ball/soccer/youth basketball/football/dance/karate/band mom and my kids (21, 22, and 24) still talk about the friendships and experiences that they enjoyed as a result of their participation.

 

[Colleen27]

It doesn't always seem like it's for the children. I see a lot of unhappy whining kids being dragged from one activity to another whether they want to go or not. There are 3 and 4 year old toddlers getting a jump start on organized sports by parents hoping they will get a college scholarship when they are older. It's unrealistic and it doesn't lead to happiness or contentment for anyone in the family, not to mention the money it takes for private lessons, sports trainers etc.

I read about these things online, but in 12+ years with kids involved in multiple sports I've yet to meet "that" parent. The sports parents I know want their kids to be active, to make friends, to have fun, to try lots of things on the route to finding a few they really enjoy.

As far as whining goes, that's just what kids do sometimes. Even my 13yo has moments when she doesn't want to go to softball practice or to the range to work on her archery, and my 6yo's attitude towards t-ball or soccer practice has everything to do with how rested she is and what competing fun is going on at home. They both know they don't have to stick with activities they aren't enjoying; it is all on a season-by-season basis and while they can't quit mid-season if they never want to sign up again that's their choice. But without fail they both look forward to each new season and enjoy it more often than not, so the occasional whining isn't a particularly good representation of their overall attitudes towards their activities.

 

[crisi]

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about many parents' motivations for enrolling their kids in extracurricular activities. Early sports and dance participation helps in the development of hand-eye coordination and gross motor skills. The child will benefit from these skills whether they go on to be the star quarterback at the state's flagship university or if they choose to become a licensed electrician. There are also social benefits to team participation that will help with group projects in school and work situations later in life.

That whining kid today that you see could be the same kid that bounces eagerly into their car seat for the ride to t-ball next week. We parents know how their interests (not to mention their moods) can ebb and flow like the tides! And the parents are probably more interested in getting the child some physical activity instead of sitting around playing a video game. Dreams of college scholarships are not what they are entertaining!

By no means do I advocate dragging an unwilling kid to activities that are bankrupting the family, but I see nothing harmful in exposing a child to number of varied experiences. Usually around the age of 10 or 11 they have discovered what they love and what they dislike. But if they have never tried youth soccer, they will never know that they much prefer to play basketball to kicking a ball around. Or that they would rather play a guitar than the drums. Yes, I was that t-ball/soccer/youth basketball/football/dance/karate/band mom and my kids (21, 22, and 24) still talk about the friendships and experiences that they enjoyed as a result of their participation.

Or she's heard some of the parents.

My daughter spent about three years taking gymnastics. My daughter was lousy at it, we were there for the eye hand coordination - being able to walk across a beam without falling off. She enjoyed it- she wasn't overscheduled, and it didn't affect college contributions. But for a few years I sat in the balcony listening to the serious gymnastics moms whose daughters were on team. And it was about getting scholarships - that very few of the girls would get - while spending a ton of time and money on training. Colleen - I've met that parent.....

I've met them with baseball, too. This is the first year that my son has played truly competitive baseball - we always had him in park and rec. But he made the high school team and the high school coach has the boys play competitive ball over the Summer. And the tone of a few of the parents on the competing teams was certainly "we've invested years and thousands in this - you WILL play, you WILL excel, this is your college fund." But the team gymnast parents were really the worst for "suck it up and get back out there and land it."

Those kinds of parents aren't exposing their kids to a variety of activities. The kids (or parents) picked a sport young (gymnastics when they were three or four), and they do it four seasons a year, four nights a week and on Saturdays. It isn't only sports - I had a coworker whose son played the violin starting that young, with that dedication and that much parental pressure.

 

[North of Mouse]

It doesn't always seem like it's for the children. I see a lot of unhappy whining kids being dragged from one activity to another whether they want to go or not. There are 3 and 4 year old toddlers getting a jump start on organized sports by parents hoping they will get a college scholarship when they are older. It's unrealistic and it doesn't lead to happiness or contentment for anyone in the family, not to mention the money it takes for private lessons, sports trainers etc.

Or she's heard some of the parents.

My daughter spent about three years taking gymnastics. My daughter was lousy at it, we were there for the eye hand coordination - being able to walk across a beam without falling off. She enjoyed it- she wasn't overscheduled, and it didn't affect college contributions. But for a few years I sat in the balcony listening to the serious gymnastics moms whose daughters were on team. And it was about getting scholarships - that very few of the girls would get - while spending a ton of time and money on training. Colleen - I've met that parent.....

I've met them with baseball, too. This is the first year that my son has played truly competitive baseball - we always had him in park and rec. But he made the high school team and the high school coach has the boys play competitive ball over the Summer. And the tone of a few of the parents on the competing teams was certainly "we've invested years and thousands in this - you WILL play, you WILL excel, this is your college fund." But the team gymnast parents were really the worst for "suck it up and get back out there and land it."

Those kinds of parents aren't exposing their kids to a variety of activities. The kids (or parents) picked a sport young (gymnastics when they were three or four), and they do it four seasons a year, four nights a week and on Saturdays. It isn't only sports - I had a coworker whose son played the violin starting that young, with that dedication and that much parental pressure.

I agree with both posters and I've also seen/known parents like this and I really feel for the children.

The parent are 'bent' on living vicariously through their children (as in, "I wasn't able to do all these sports/activities and 'you will' participate whether you want to or not"). I've seen them screaming at their kids and wonder what their home life is like.

Children can do quite well without practice and games filling all their play time/off school time hours. Ours sure have and spent lots of time with friends and didn't miss all the schedules. It's not required.

 

[Colleen27]

Or she's heard some of the parents.

My daughter spent about three years taking gymnastics. My daughter was lousy at it, we were there for the eye hand coordination - being able to walk across a beam without falling off. She enjoyed it- she wasn't overscheduled, and it didn't affect college contributions. But for a few years I sat in the balcony listening to the serious gymnastics moms whose daughters were on team. And it was about getting scholarships - that very few of the girls would get - while spending a ton of time and money on training. Colleen - I've met that parent.....

Maybe I'm just not in the right demographic to see it first hand. Our town is so small, and most of the families of relatively modest means, that I feel like someone who wants to be THAT into a particular activity for their kids would almost have to look elsewhere for an outlet. The overscheduled kids in my town tend to be the ones who want to try everything before they start to narrow their focus, like my DD13, not specialists spending all their time on one sport or activity.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Sigh. Again, OP is a hospital nurse. Their pay system is different than a normal 9-5 desk job. I believe it has been established already that she is considered "full time".

The point is OP is not working full-time HOURS (which would actually be 3 12-hour shifts per week - not 2 one week & 3 the next, BTW). She has the opportunity to work more hours for more pay. If she wants more "things", there's her chance to get them.

It takes 4,100 hours of work per year to keep my household up & running. OP's entire budget is based on working ~1,500 hours. I don't think there's any question why things are tight.

 

[dpswift]

There is your answer on contentment. Family first.

You work a .8 on your regular job (about) and then I'd guess pick up enough home care hours that you functionally work full time - possibly even better than full time during the school year. But if you aren't, someone has a point - you are doing darn well for a single mom who is living off a single part time income.

And you misunderstand taxes - You may see more taken out of your check when you work more because of a move to a different bracket and the payroll system assumption that you'll need all that held back, but because tax rates are marginal, its impossible to not come out ahead financially - at least by the time you file.

And yeah, sometimes kids are such a bummer financially. My childfree friends are sitting on a beach in the Dominican Republic right now.

I'd also recommend getting off this board if you aren't content with your financial situation - and certainly do so before the Black Friday talk starts. Get over to frugality boards, where they make fun of Black Friday. This is a budget board, but its a budget board on a website that caters to one of the most consumerist companies in the world. I suspect that most people who hang on this budget board are not single parents on one .8 income plus some side work - prior polls - for what they are worth - put our average household income as a group well over the national average. Around here it can seem like everyone else is getting to go to Disney World - and almost everyone else is getting to go eighteen times a year (I'm exaggerating a little - but then, I hang on the DVC board as well so my perception is skewed towards frequent visitors). And there is always someone who, for instance, will post to a thread on American Girl that their daughter had several hundred plus dollar dolls. It can make you wonder what you are doing wrong. If you start reading THOSE sorts of boards, we budget boarders (with the exception of a few people like barkley - and a few others who manage frugal and a love of Disney) spend like drunken sailors.

Very good point. I have saved money by reading this board, however I have also spent money that I would not have. I try to avoid reading the threads talking about great sales. Another thing that I have noticed is that when the shopping threads start up it makes me feel as though I"need" lots of expensive items that I did not even know existed.

Also as a whole everything has gone up at a rate higher than income. Even if you buy the same foods as you did a year ago you would have less product due to the shrinking sized packages.

 

[allison443]

Sigh. Again, OP is a hospital nurse. Their pay system is different than a normal 9-5 desk job. I believe it has been established already that she is considered "full time".

Yes, she is considered "full time" by her employer, but her actual physical hours at work are fewer than what most "full time" workers have to put in.
Since she feels she needs more income people are suggesting she could use some of that time to earn more.

 

[dpswift]

yeah but if it is a choice between paying for dance and art lessons and having enough $$ for them to go to college, which one would be more valuable for them unless they have a shot at becoming professional dancers or artists?

There is a lot to this. In some cases music and art classes might give them the confidence to go to college. There are scholarships available that would help out that are given for art. It would not be a full ride but could help offset the tuition.

I still feel that my boys missed out by not taking Karate. It is such an huge cost that I could never justify it.

 

[havaneselover]

There is a lot to this. In some cases music and art classes might give them the confidence to go to college. There are scholarships available that would help out that are given for art. It would not be a full ride but could help offset the tuition. I still feel that my boys missed out by not taking Karate. It is such an huge cost that I could never justify it.

Agreed. My kids swim year round in a very competitive program. One is very good but probably not scholarship material. The other is so so. But I noticed my daughter (the better swimmer) gained a lot of confidence because is swimming. She learned to conquer scary things (like diving, deep pools, talking to coaches). She also set goals (new time standards, qualifying for states) and achieved them. Then there's listening skills, mixing with kids of the opposite gender, socialization, etc. I think part of the reason she is such a strong student is because of the discipline she has learned because of swimming. In addition, we have some great private schools which I may consider for high school if we can get financial aid. Her swimming may help.

The benefits aren't as clear with my son. He's probably borderline ADHD so burning energy and listening are helpful. He also had to learn to be respectful of coaches (class clown).

All in all I think these are qualities which will be helpful in college and life.

 

[Dakota731]

Or she's heard some of the parents.

Yep and it's not rare nowadays! It's one thing to give a child swim lessons to teach them water safety, but it's another to have parents going into debt to have children in a private swim league (I have friends who pay $200 EACH for their two daughters per month and yet they are foreclosing on their house) hoping their children will get college scholarships. But I've been around long enough to know they won't - 73% of men's college swimmers and 66% of women's college swimmers never receive a scholarship (and those are the kids who are good enough to make the team).
It is sad to see reality set in when these kids are seniors. My neighbor's daughter was the best swimmer in the school (went to states every year) and got recruited to swim in college, but was never offered any money at all. They spent thousands on lessons, clubs, competitions etc with the hope of a free ride and got nothing. She swam one year in college and quit when she got a boyfriend.
And the same goes for dance, gymnastics, baseball etc. For instance, more than 1 million boys play high school football, but there are only about 19,500 football scholarships. Nearly 603,000 girls compete in track and field in high school, but they're competing for around 4,500 scholarships. So I just want parents to be realistic and not get themselves into debt for something that most likely will never happen.

 

[Dakota731]

My point was that if a child is good at art, buy them supplies and let him join the art club in junior high or if she is a great singer encourage her to try out for chorus. Sometimes parents seem to jump right in as soon as they see a little bit of talent, sign the child up for private art or voice lessons or get them on some expensive travel team that costs thousands of dollars a year and keeps the child busy every day of the week.

And often the families can't afford the financial burden which leads to stress for the child as well. I'm all for school sports or creative outlets for kids, but we live in a middle class town and I see kids with private trainers and schedules that exhaust me just hearing about them.

 

[crisi]

Maybe I'm just not in the right demographic to see it first hand. Our town is so small, and most of the families of relatively modest means, that I feel like someone who wants to be THAT into a particular activity for their kids would almost have to look elsewhere for an outlet. The overscheduled kids in my town tend to be the ones who want to try everything before they start to narrow their focus, like my DD13, not specialists spending all their time on one sport or activity.

I live in a 'burb with a lot of economic diversity - so I see kids whose parents can afford all this and college too, and parents who can't afford any of it. And parents who don't do it and parents who do.

The ones that drive me nuts are the ones that drive a Mercedes SUV, have their kids in expensive private lessons, go on expensive vacations - and then are shocked when the kids don't get a scholarship and they haven't saved anything for college - and their incomes mean very little aid. They've given their kids affluenza.

 

[eliza61]

I think it's like any other "thing" folks sacrifice for their kids.

A very good coworker just moved into a affluent township. He fully admits that the house he and his wife purchased is at the upper limits of their income and it's stretching them.
They are there because of the school system. It's a great school system, we talk a lot about the trade offs.

Their kids are going to great schools but because of the high cost of living they can't save for college.

So it's interesting, we talk almost every day (not just about this) but how this decision is now harder than he expected. for example, he wonders just what we bounced back and forth here. they are ok but his kids friends have huge birthday parties with clowns, moon bounces, ponies etc. S can't do that. the other kids go to Disney, Europe, hiking, etc etc two, three times a year. S vacations where he has relatives or friends as not to have to pay for lodging.

Now, for them, right now they are ok with their decision but you can see that the "contentment" is a bit elusive.