mixed use vs DVC only?

[summerw]

I’ve been reading everything I can to research a possible purchase and notice how often people mention if it’s mixed use or DVC only. I’ve never stayed at a DVC only resort.

Do you feel this has an impact on the atmosphere of the resort? It seems the size of the resort plus the popularity of the restaurant(s) largely determine that? I’m wondering this in relation to Riviera... it seems to be a smaller lobby?

Is the service any different? I remember the concierge at the Beach Club gently chiding me for taking care of some issue with the toy my son bought myself instead of asking them because they “are a deluxe resort with deluxe service.”

I so do not want to buy Riviera but so far I love the design and the convenience of the Skyliner, although I’m so curious how lines and lack of a/c will be. Please feel free to talk me out of it.

 

[skier_pete]

So far the only real DVC Only resorts are SSR and OKW. Kidani is "sort of" since it's it's own building, but you have Jambo right there.

I don't think you have to worry about Riviera, Disney has transitioned over the last 10 years from DVC being "Deluxe-adjacent" as Pete Werner recently said to a true Deluxe. I think at the direct price point right now, they have to make Riviera a deluxe offering. The biggest deal to a DVC only accommodation is that you're maintenance fees have to support the entire property, not just a portion of it. This hasn't made SSR and OKW resorts high because they are so big, but I suspect it might keep Riviera up there in MF price. We'll see overtime, lately they've been starting all the new resorts at a high MF.

 

[skippytx]

I’m so curious how lines and lack of a/c will be.

I think people are worrying about this too much. The gondola's will be moving a ton more people than the buses or monorails could. The gondolas will be moving thousands of people an hour. A packed bus carries what, 60,70 people? Monorail 320ish? You'll see a line during peak times, but definitely not any worse than the bus or the monorail. The lack of A/C might be uncomfortable, but I think the longest segment trip is less than 6 minutes, and they designed them to have a breeze rolling through them. I rather deal with the gondolas for 5 or 6 minutes than walk 10 minutes in the Florida heat. The gondolas will be moving at like 11mph so there will be air moving through the cabin. Can't be much worse than the monorail line from TTC to Epcot, the AC barely works on monorail as it is.

 

[summerw]

So far the only real DVC Only resorts are SSR and OKW. Kidani is "sort of" since it's it's own building, but you have Jambo right there.

I don't think you have to worry about Riviera, Disney has transitioned over the last 10 years from DVC being "Deluxe-adjacent" as Pete Werner recently said to a true Deluxe. I think at the direct price point right now, they have to make Riviera a deluxe offering. The biggest deal to a DVC only accommodation is that you're maintenance fees have to support the entire property, not just a portion of it. This hasn't made SSR and OKW resorts high because they are so big, but I suspect it might keep Riviera up there in MF price. We'll see overtime, lately they've been starting all the new resorts at a high MF.

It seems like a lot of people think they will be raising all the MFs soon. Or at least I’ve read a lot of posts saying that. I agree and can’t imagine they would have gone with the Mediterranean theme if they weren’t going to provide excellent service.

I think people are worrying about this too much. The gondola's will be moving a ton more people than the buses or monorails could. The gondolas will be moving thousands of people an hour. A packed bus carries what, 60,70 people? Monorail 320ish? You'll see a line during peak times, but definitely not any worse than the bus or the monorail. The lack of A/C might be uncomfortable, but I think the longest segment trip is less than 6 minutes, and they designed them to have a breeze rolling through them. I rather deal with the gondolas for 5 or 6 minutes than walk 10 minutes in the Florida heat. The gondolas will be moving at like 11mph so there will be air moving through the cabin. Can't be much worse than the monorail line from TTC to Epcot, the AC barely works on monorail as it is.

I think that’s all true.

Alternate transportation is definitely a big priority for me when picking a resort. When we stayed at the Poly, I think we used the boat and ferry more than anything. Hating the Skyliner would probably affect how I felt about staying there. It’s probably going to wind up being wdw’s most convenient transportation with a great view. I’m just interested in everyone’s speculations.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Riviera service is not going to be along the lines of what you described for BC concierge. There will be CM's that go above and beyond and others that don't. Remember that even the DVC only resorts have cash people staying at them. I really haven't found much difference between resorts onsite - just differences among CM's.

 

[skier_pete]

It seems like a lot of people think they will be raising all the MFs soon. Or at least I’ve read a lot of posts saying that. I agree and can’t imagine they would have gone with the Mediterranean theme if they weren’t going to provide excellent service.

They already raised all MF quite a bit to make up for raising minimum staff wage from $10 to $13 (a 30% increase). This year they go from $13 to $14, which is a 7% increase. I do not think we will see the same large increase we saw last year, but it could be slightly higher than normal - and yes DRR does already have that $14 wage built into their fees. However, there is an extra large cost for transportation in their fees - so I still think they will remain the highest fee in the system. It's also from having to build a resort with full infrastructure from the ground up. No resort since OKW has been built this way.

 

[crvetter]

They already raised all MF quite a bit to make up for raising minimum staff wage from $10 to $13 (a 30% increase). This year they go from $13 to $14, which is a 7% increase. I do not think we will see the same large increase we saw last year, but it could be slightly higher than normal - and yes DRR does already have that $14 wage built into their fees. However, there is an extra large cost for transportation in their fees - so I still think they will remain the highest fee in the system. It's also from having to build a resort with full infrastructure from the ground up. No resort since OKW has been built this way.

This isn’t entirely accurate because you are using the terminal wage for the whole year. This is the wage increase history

Minimum wages are:
2018 - $10
January 2019 and February 2019 - $11
March 2019 through August 2019 - $12
September 2019 through September 2020 - $13
October 2020 through September 2021 - $14
October 2021 forward - $15

So you need to use the average wages, which waiting by the length of time the wage was in effect you have

2018 - $10
2019 - $12.16
2020 - $13.25
2021 - $14.25
2022+ - $15

So the L14 had a 21.6% increase in the average minimum wage from 2018 to 2019, a 9% increase from 2019 to 2020, a 7.5% increase from 2020 to 2021, and lastly 5.3% from 2021 to 2022.

So with the expectation that Rivieras dues are using 2020’s average wages (likely since the resort is only open 15 days this year) then in L14 are still expected to see half the MF increase for 2020 for the minimum wage component.

 

[summerw]

Riviera service is not going to be along the lines of what you described for BC concierge. There will be CM's that go above and beyond and others that don't. Remember that even the DVC only resorts have cash people staying at them. I really haven't found much difference between resorts onsite - just differences among CM's.

Is BC considered to be above compared to the average deluxe? I do think they were more helpful than any interaction I had with the Poly, but I stayed cash at BC and rented points at the Poly.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Is BC considered to be above compared to the average deluxe? I do think they were more helpful than any interaction I had with the Poly, but I stayed cash at BC and rented points at the Poly.

No, I really haven't heard that BC is a step above. IMO you could get that type of service at any of the deluxe resorts. And also just as likely not to. Consistency is what tends to be most lacking everywhere.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Your RRV dues are going to help pay for the Skyliner as well as buses to the other two parks.

 

[kniquy]

Do you feel this has an impact on the atmosphere of the resort? It seems the size of the resort plus the popularity of the restaurant(s) largely determine that? I’m wondering this in relation to Riviera... it seems to be a smaller lobby?

AK-Kidani is one resort where it is only DVC -- The lobby is smaller, but we actually enjoyed it being a little more quaint and quiet compared to Jambo which is both hotel and DVC. I really don't think the scale of the lobby really has ever affected my trip. The lobby can be an area to chill and hang out for a bit but i don't find myself there often. Even at Jambo with the grand lobby we have stopped to take pictures by the christmas tree but we find ourselves venturing off to the quiter areas of the lobby or animal viewing areas to get away from people.

I so do not want to buy Riviera but so far I love the design and the convenience of the Skyliner, although I’m so curious how lines and lack of a/c will be. Please feel free to talk me out of it.

My only comment on Riviera is to do your homework on the resale restrictions. This could have a considerable effect on the value of the resort/contract should you ever need to sell. Other than that we all need to wait and see what it will be like when it opens - no one really knows what the resort has to offer. I believe the only access people have had is at the preview center at SSR - so hardly a good assessment of what the resort will really feel like.

 

[Brett Wyman]

Is BC considered to be above compared to the average deluxe? I do think they were more helpful than any interaction I had with the Poly, but I stayed cash at BC and rented points at the Poly.

It definitely is not. If anything the 3 monorail resorts are the "above" average deluxes. Grand Floridian is really the only own the separates itself as the flagship deluxe for WDW.

Cost wise at least the Epcot resorts are on the lower scale, followed by Wilderness Lodge and Animal Kingdom.

 

[summerw]

AK-Kidani is one resort where it is only DVC -- The lobby is smaller, but we actually enjoyed it being a little more quaint and quiet compared to Jambo which is both hotel and DVC. I really don't think the scale of the lobby really has ever affected my trip. The lobby can be an area to chill and hang out for a bit but i don't find myself there often. Even at Jambo with the grand lobby we have stopped to take pictures by the christmas tree but we find ourselves venturing off to the quiter areas of the lobby or animal viewing areas to get away from people.

My only comment on Riviera is to do your homework on the resale restrictions. This could have a considerable effect on the value of the resort/contract should you ever need to sell. Other than that we all need to wait and see what it will be like when it opens - no one really knows what the resort has to offer. I believe the only access people have had is at the preview center at SSR - so hardly a good assessment of what the resort will really feel like.

I actually like the idea of a quieter lobby so that would be good for me. The restrictions are definitely holding me up, along with all the unknowns of an incomplete resort.

We have low-level been considering buying for several years now, and the restrictions implemented in the last few years, as well the effects of the high-point units, have made us less enthusiastic. At some point, I’ll call the guide I spoke to and hear her input on all this... or at least tell her mine.

Maybe we just continue renting points instead.

 

[skier_pete]

I actually like the idea of a quieter lobby so that would be good for me. The restrictions are definitely holding me up, along with all the unknowns of an incomplete resort.

We have low-level been considering buying for several years now, and the restrictions implemented in the last few years, as well the effects of the high-point units, have made us less enthusiastic. At some point, I’ll call the guide I spoke to and hear her input on all this... or at least tell her mine.

Maybe we just continue renting points instead.

Personally my first thought on Riviera is why would anyone buy before it's open. It's going to take probably 3 years to sell out the property. Sure, maybe the point price goes up $3-5 in the. Next year, but in the grand scheme of what this will cost over lifetime it's a small adder. Wait until it opens and visit the resort (or rent points and stay) to be sure. Everyone points out that you don't lose money on a DVC contract but that's only been true of resale contracts. I boguht my AKV contract for $74 / point in 2014, the original owners paid $125 / point in 2011. If you buy direct at Riviera and decide it's not for you 5 years later, you WILL lose money. Possibly a lot with the resale restrictions. Be sure you like the resort. Six months is not that long to wait.

 

[disneynutz]

IMO the shared resorts offer a little more than the DVC only resorts. The shared resorts seem to have a larger budget and a much different feel. Holiday decorations and food are a couple of examples. There is also a reason that DVD is building shared resorts, they must be more profitable for them to build, sell and run.

Bill

 

[kboo]

When we stayed at the Poly, I think we used the boat and ferry more than anything.

I have had numerous boat captains tell me that at the MK resorts, boat transportation beats monorail any day. Well, other than taking your feet from BLT and Contemporary....

Grand Floridian is really the only own the separates itself as the flagship deluxe for WDW.

I feel like VGF is the best of both worlds. The villas are in their own, separate, quiet building, but close enough to everything else, including the hustle and bustle in the main building, that you don't feel separated from everything.

When going to MK, we took the monorail there, but tried mostly to take the boats back, because it's that 4th stop (second to last) to go back. Even with folding up a double stroller, it was worth it.

@skier_pete - I think your point re Riviera is valid for a small contract, but in its early days, Riviera direct with the developer credit was competitive with resale at the L14. It was about $166-167 for 200-250 points. Yes, still a lot of money, but I'm guessing that resale prices at Riviera will be competitive with VGF resale prices even with the resale restriction, and you'd have to wait a few years to see competitively priced resale contracts out there. If that's likely to be the case, then why not buy direct now for a lower price and have the points to use now? (Note - this analysis assumes that one can buy without financing and wouldn't have to sell if the recession headed south or someone lost their job.)

 

[Brett Wyman]

We follow a similar strategy from both Poly and GF. Monorail in boats back.

 

[skier_pete]

@skier_pete - I think your point re Riviera is valid for a small contract, but in its early days, Riviera direct with the developer credit was competitive with resale at the L14. It was about $166-167 for 200-250 points. Yes, still a lot of money, but I'm guessing that resale prices at Riviera will be competitive with VGF resale prices even with the resale restriction, and you'd have to wait a few years to see competitively priced resale contracts out there. If that's likely to be the case, then why not buy direct now for a lower price and have the points to use now? (Note - this analysis assumes that one can buy without financing and wouldn't have to sell if the recession headed south or someone lost their job.)

I guess I wouldn't be surprised in the early days if the prices hold up since early on there are so few contracts on the resale market, but I do believe that typically after 3-4 years is when you get a surge of resales and people realize that they bought something that did not give them what they wanted. When that happens, I have a hard time believing a contract restricted to a single resort will be able to compete with VGF prices. I realize the location is going to beat those such as SSR, but there's a portion of DVC owners (and I am one of these) that the ability to visit multiple resorts is really important. That will negatively impact Riviera resale prices.

 

[crvetter]

I guess I wouldn't be surprised in the early days if the prices hold up since early on there are so few contracts on the resale market, but I do believe that typically after 3-4 years is when you get a surge of resales and people realize that they bought something that did not give them what they wanted. When that happens, I have a hard time believing a contract restricted to a single resort will be able to compete with VGF prices. I realize the location is going to beat those such as SSR, but there's a portion of DVC owners (and I am one of these) that the ability to visit multiple resorts is really important. That will negatively impact Riviera resale prices.

I do wonder though if the ability to visit multiple resorts is really important are you buying VGF or DRR (if hypothetically restrictions were removed)? I think the thought of those that believe resale will remain high (I lean BLT/PVB not VGF high) is that those willing to buy there are those with no interest in changing resorts at 7 months so the market is a really different pool of buyers. It seems those those were the multiple resorts is important go after the economical resorts (AKV, OKW, SSR) while those interested in staying at certain resorts pay the premium for this resorts. Basically the market has already created to a large degree that if you want to stay BCV you mostly need to own there, same for VGF. So the basic question is the pool of the buyers who want home resort premium to stay there only large enough to support the resort, yes but because it is a much larger resort I think resale prices will be less than VGF, but still a large enough group that it certainly will be higher than SSR/OKW/AKV.

 

[skier_pete]

I do wonder though if the ability to visit multiple resorts is really important are you buying VGF or DRR (if hypothetically restrictions were removed)? I think the thought of those that believe resale will remain high (I lean BLT/PVB not VGF high) is that those willing to buy there are those with no interest in changing resorts at 7 months so the market is a really different pool of buyers. It seems those those were the multiple resorts is important go after the economical resorts (AKV, OKW, SSR) while those interested in staying at certain resorts pay the premium for this resorts. Basically the market has already created to a large degree that if you want to stay BCV you mostly need to own there, same for VGF. So the basic question is the pool of the buyers who want home resort premium to stay there only large enough to support the resort, yes but because it is a much larger resort I think resale prices will be less than VGF, but still a large enough group that it certainly will be higher than SSR/OKW/AKV.

You are right that DRR MAY have enough popularity on it's own to keep it's price up. But I really what % of owners ONLY book at their homes. I know that when I bought I might have considered that to be OK, but as a owner for 5-years, I would be unlikely to want to buy a resort that I can't ever move from. Now I did buy a small BWV contract for that purpose - but if I add on again, I am unlikely to even consider DRR for resale unless the price is extremely low. I'd rather own at SSR and trade out than be "stuck" at a single location. I can't be the only one that feels that way.