Mixed breed or "hybrid" dogs

[hiwaygal]

OK...I just have to ask this now....since we are talking about the lives of innocent animals......why does it matter if somebody paid big bucks or got their pet from a rescue or petfinder? If the owner goes into the establishment KNOWING that they are getting a puppy mill dog....why does it matter what venue is taken? I understand the issue with puppy mill dogs, really I do....but regardless of where I get my dog....it is still a puppy mill dog and I love it REGARDLESS of what others think of me. I like to think I just helped that innocent life....and to one up it...I just had my little guy neutered as to not continue this cycle....so what makes me the bad person in all of this?

I think the big issue is that by purchasing a dog from a puppy mill/backyard breeder you have (albeit inadvertently) justified them in continuing to breed dogs in the conditions they do.

It would be nice if everyone who breeds two dogs really does have the best interest of the dogs at heart...but they don't. People breed them to make a fast buck. If people buy from these breeders, then the breeders got what they wanted (the money) and the "system" works for them...so they keep doing it. Never mind that their dogs are being bred every six months. That there is no rhyme or reason to which dog is breeding with which female. Little or no money is spent on proper health care for any of the animals (with the possible exception of first shots for pups because that's what the CONSUMER wants).

Most of the people who are against puppymills and backyard breeders want to put them out of business. It's hard to do that when people still buy the product they are selling.

 

[Nana Annie]

Simply put - for a family pet, I would value the dog's personality, companionship, health, and hardiness; regardless of mixed or pure.

"Pure" breeding, pedigrees, and/or health screening do not guarantee a healthy dog. In general, breeding dogs from restrictive gene pools, who are prone to similar health problems (as in "pure" breeds), increases the chances of genetic problems in the offspring. "Mixed" breeding of dogs who are prone to different problems tends to lower the chances of genetic problems in the offspring. Mutts, in general, tend to be hardier dogs.

Hybrid vigor in domestic dogs is being proven a fallacy more and more each day. Since many breeds carry the same genetic disposition to the same diseases, the rampant breeding of untested dogs is rapidly producing medical nightmares for loving owners. They believe the hype that because their dogs are "hybrids" the breeders don't have to test and their puppy will be healthier.

Well guess what - you breed a dysplastic dog to a dysplastic dog - you are going to get a dysplastic dog - doesn't matter the breed. You breed a dog with heart disease in its line to a dog with heart disease in its line, you are going to get a dog with heart disease - no matter what the breed.

The sad thing is that people are being saddled with huge vet bills for their loved dogs. They have the dogs now and love them as family members. They certainly aren't going to deny their beloved pet the medical attention it needs. But if there had been the same dedication to studying genetics that the best breeders do - they wouldn't have to mortgage their home to do that $5,000 hip replacement or the $$$ heart surgery.

Buying from a reputable breeder who does all the testing doesn't guarantee a problem-free dog - it just ups your odds greatly.

 

[Nana Annie]

I bought my designer dogs at the pound. They are a shat (shepard/cattle dog) and a blab (beagle/lab).

 

[ZipaDeeDooDah]

The sad thing is that people are being saddled with huge vet bills for their loved dogs. They have the dogs now and love them as family members. They certainly aren't going to deny their beloved pet the medical attention it needs. But if there had been the same dedication to studying genetics that the best breeders do - they wouldn't have to mortgage their home to do that $5,000 hip replacement or the $$$ heart surgery.

I would love to hear an unbiased opinion from a veterinarian about who they see more often for genetic problems - mutts or purebreds?

 

[lizdotcom99]

Hybrid vigor in domestic dogs is being proven a fallacy more and more each day. Since many breeds carry the same genetic disposition to the same diseases, the rampant breeding of untested dogs is rapidly producing medical nightmares for loving owners. They believe the hype that because their dogs are "hybrids" the breeders don't have to test and their puppy will be healthier.

Well guess what - you breed a dysplastic dog to a dysplastic dog - you are going to get a dysplastic dog - doesn't matter the breed. You breed a dog with heart disease in its line to a dog with heart disease in its line, you are going to get a dog with heart disease - no matter what the breed.

The sad thing is that people are being saddled with huge vet bills for their loved dogs. They have the dogs now and love them as family members. They certainly aren't going to deny their beloved pet the medical attention it needs. But if there had been the same dedication to studying genetics that the best breeders do - they wouldn't have to mortgage their home to do that $5,000 hip replacement or the $$$ heart surgery.

Buying from a reputable breeder who does all the testing doesn't guarantee a problem-free dog - it just ups your odds greatly.

I understand that....really I do...but for those of us who choose to rescue our designer doggies... or maybe even those who get their dogs from a recue group....I have two words...PET INSURANCE!

This bad person is going to work now....most likely a good thing as I am liable to get in troulbe here. Let's face it...we all feel passionately about this....but can't we all just agree to disagree and know that we all love our pets?

 

[Nana Annie]

Then go march in front of pet stores and hunt down puppy mills and stop damning somebody for paying money for a mixed breed dog and giving them a good home.

Nobody is damning anybody for buying a mixed breed.

Just make sure you buy your mixed breed from somebody who is in it for the dog and not the money. Somebody who can tell you why they bred the dog. Somebody who tests every single one of their dogs, including their pet quality dogs that go to other homes AND are spayed/neutered. Somebody who does anything and everything to make sure they are not passing on undesirable temperaments, undesireable genetics, etc. Somebody who doesn't lie and guarantee that all xxdoodles are non-shedding and hypoallergenic. Somebody who does not profess to know exactly what they are going to get when breeding for mutts.

A well-bred "breed" breeds true to its standard. You know what kind of temperament (with some variation) you are going to get. A border collie needs lots of exercise and a job, a well-bred golden is not as guardy as a dobie.

A mutt does not breed true to its breed, because there IS no breed. If a breeder is guaranteeing what you are going to get, they are lying, as it is impossible to know what side of the lineage the puppy is going to take after.

If you want to pay thousands of dollars for a mutt, that is entirely up to you. But just make sure it is a well bred mutt so that you don't also end up paying thousands of extra dollars to the vet and to trainers.

 

[Aimeedyan]

I think the big issue is that by purchasing a dog from a puppy mill/backyard breeder you have (albeit inadvertently) justified them in continuing to breed dogs in the conditions they do.

It would be nice if everyone who breeds two dogs really does have the best interest of the dogs at heart...but they don't. People breed them to make a fast buck. If people buy from these breeders, then the breeders got what they wanted (the money) and the "system" works for them...so they keep doing it. Never mind that their dogs are being bred every six months. That there is no rhyme or reason to which dog is breeding with which female. Little or no money is spent on proper health care for any of the animals (with the possible exception of first shots for pups because that's what the CONSUMER wants).

Most of the people who are against puppymills and backyard breeders want to put them out of business. It's hard to do that when people still buy the product they are selling.

Exactly.

When you give money to those horrible people, you are damning the life of one more dog to the conditions of a puppy mill.

If you want to feel really good about the decision you made, google puppy mill and take a look. Then you'll understand why people who love and care about the innocent are outraged at the pet store and puppy mill industry.

(I know several people that mistakenly supported a puppy mill by buying the cute dog in the window. Some honestly haven't a clue where they get those dogs. However, they later learned what a puppy mill was and now advise people NOT to support pet stores. They don't still stand around and defend their poor choice. They educated themselves on the reality of the industry and encourage people to not support it.)

 

[jrmasm]

...but for those of us who choose to rescue our designer doggies

you didn't rescue anything. You bought a puppy at a pet store.

 

[Banshee]

Buying puppy mill dogs is just feeding the machine. All it does is keep that shamefull business going and adding to the misery of innocent animals. Its great when someone says yeah my dog probably came from a puppy mill but I love her, thats wonderful but how many are bought and have behavioral and major health issues and wind up in the shelter? How many animals suffer in these horrid conditions? How many never even see the light of day? Females with twisted spines and legs because they live in cages to small for them. Reproduce over and over forced to give birth in their own filth. I am sure there are lots of puppymill dogs out there that lead wonderful lives and are well loved and healthy, but what about the ones that arent? I am not talking about back yard breeders that you find in the paper they are not puppy mills if they have one male and one female, no they are probably not improving on the breed but I am sure their animals are not suffering. Its the dogs bought at pet shops you can guarentee that their parents have suffered greatly. This is just my opinion and its only my opinion because of a horrific thing I witnessed. and I am not a rescue person or even volunteer.

 

[need_a_Disney_fix]

Do you folks find it rewarding to make a person, such as myself, feel like absolute crap? Do you know how much time I put into research before we got Lucy? Do you know how much I care about the puppy mill situation? I realize this is your passion, but don't you EVER put me in that category of willy nilly buying of these dogs. You have caused my panties to go in a major twist. Until you really know me...don't accuse me of anything. Gawd, I'm rambling now. Thanks for making my day! Hope you feel good about it.

 

[KristiKelly]

Somebody who doesn't lie and guarantee that all xxdoodles are non-shedding and hypoallergenic.

I've said it once but I think some read & see only what they want. Reputable breeder of Goldendoodles & Labradoodles do NOT guarantee non-shedding, they will say low shedding and my dog is a low shedder compared to my neighbors Golden and my other neighbors Lab/Ridgeback mix.

There is a website for Golden/Labradoodles, there is a comparison for all the dogs signed up on the website as to whether they are no, low, or high shedders. No one is trying to lie about or hide anything.

I have grown up with dogs ALL my life, worked in a vet for about 8 years through high school & college. I am no idiot when it comes to dogs. I did not foolishly decide on this breed. I sat up on the internet and discussion groups for these dogs and did MONTHS (not hours) of research before considering this breed.

Other breeds we considered and I researched were Bearded Collie, BMD, Collie, Standard Poodle, and Golden Retriever. We finally felt that this combination was best for our family.

 

[KristiKelly]

I would love to hear an unbiased opinion from a veterinarian about who they see more often for genetic problems - mutts or purebreds?

Are you implying that Nana Annie is being biased.

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

I wasn't going to chime in but I have just backspaced for the last time.

Some of these responses are so idiotic on this thread, I would like to reach through this computer and shake some sense into some people if I could.

You could tell alot of these responses come frompeople who have never seen a puppy mill in real life. Who have never seen a perfectly healthy dog put down just because a good home could not be found in time.

Protest you say, I have thank you very much. I have worked with a collie rescue group for many years. I have seen many dogs bought on impulse because they were 'cute" puppies and now are an inconvenience. I've seen 2 yo dogs who can't walk or see. Why because people continue to buy puppies from breeders who don't give a crap about the pups they are helping to create but the almighty buck. When you buy a designer dog from a backyard breeder(because no reputable breeder would ever put their kennel name on a mixed breed) or from a pet store, you are not rescueing the dog, you are promoting the backyard breeder.

Yea, the dogs are cute. The are many cute dogs put down every day. Defend your dog and your choice anyway you feel you must to make yourself feel better, but bottom line is until people stop buying for convenience the poor animal population doesn't have a chance.

 

[Nana Annie]

I understand that....really I do...but for those of us who choose to rescue our designer doggies... or maybe even those who get their dogs from a recue group....I have two words...PET INSURANCE!
This bad person is going to work now....most likely a good thing as I am liable to get in troulbe here. Let's face it...we all feel passionately about this....but can't we all just agree to disagree and know that we all love our pets?

Many studies have actually proven that Pet Insurance can increase the cost of pet health care. For one thing, many have exclusions towards genetic diseases like dysplasia - so not only are you paying out premiums, it won't cover some of the big stuff.

Here is one article describing the pitfalls of Pet Insurance:

Is pet insurance worth the price?

The most important thing you need to know about pet insurance is that it is a form of enforced savings that almost never covers the entire bill. You can accomplish the same thing by paying the same monthly premium to your savings account.

The advantage: If your pet has little cause to visit a vet beyond annual checkups, the amount saved belongs to you, not an insurance company. The risk, of course, is if you run into unusually expensive veterinary needs, though our money-saving tips show how to avoid or reduce those (see 20 ways to cut vet costs).

The problem with pet insurance is all its fine-print pitfalls. Indeed, buying a policy may end up increasing a pet owner's total expenditures on veterinary care by thousands of dollars, according to our analysis of five plans. That's because on top of deductibles required by all the insurers, plus any co-pays, unreimbursed costs, and exclusions--all of which you pay out-of-pocket--you also pay premiums. Seemingly small $11 to $50 per-month premiums can add up to $2,000 to $6,000 or more over a pet's lifetime.

"That's quite a bit of money to shell out ‘just in case,'" says Dr. David Lee, a lecturer on practice management at Cornell University's College of Veterinary Medicine. "A lot of pets go for many years living a long healthy life without ever needing a $1,000 to $2,000 procedure."

Poor value may help to explain why less than 1 percent of pet owners have bought pet insurance.

To assess this insurance, we created "Lucky," an Oakland, Calif., Labrador retriever, the most popular of purebreds, and gave him some of the most common problems that vets see. We then calculated the benefits that a selection of policies would pay and the premiums Lucky's owner would bear over 11 years.

The results appear in the table below.

COMMON AILMENTS: Pet insurance is no bargain


"Lucky" had 9 claims over 11 years--a broken leg, an ear infection, a cut requiring stitches, an eye infection, hypothyroidism requiring years of drug claims, and a torn knee ligament. Total cost of care: $3,301. The insurance plans below would have cost Lucky's owners an extra $497 to $3,380 for care.

Cost of care Savings (or extra cost)with insurance


WITHOUT INSURANCE Cost is total vet bill.

Directly to vet $3,301 -



WITH INSURANCE Cost includes co-payments, deductibles, and premiums.

PetsHealth Care Basic 3,798 ($497)

Veterinary Pet
Insurance Standard 3,852 (551)

Pet Care
QuickCare Gold 4,707 (1,406)

Veterinary Pet
Insurance Superior 4,903 (1,602)

Pet Care QuickCare
Gold Double Benefits 6,681 (3,380)

Sources:VPI, Pet Care, PetsHealth Care


MAJOR PROBLEMS: Some plans may save you money


If Lucky had the problems described in the chart above over 11 years plus needed major surgery such as hip replacement, the total cost of his care would have been $10,414. Three plans in our study would have paid more in benefits than Lucky's owners would have paid in total costs. But because this scenario is unlikely, a savings account is still a better option.

Cost of care Savings (or extra cost)with insurance


WITHOUT INSURANCE Cost is total vet bill.

Directly to vet $10,414


WITH INSURANCE Cost includes co-payments, deductibles, and premiums.

Pet Care QuickCare
Gold Double Benefits 7,794 $2,620

Pet Care
QuickCare Gold 8,820 1,594

PetsHealth
Care Basic 9,411 1,003

Veterinary Pet
Insurance Standard 10,965 (551)

Veterinary Pet Insurance
Superior 12,016 (1,602)

Sources: VPI, Pet Care, PetsHealth Care

 

[Nana Annie]

Are you implying that Nana Annie is being biased.

Oh, I am very biased. I will be the first to stand up and admit it.

But not towards purebred vs. mutts,

but biased towards thoughtfully researched, tested, well bred vs. backyard bred / puppymill.

 

[kwdietrich1]

I would love to hear an unbiased opinion from a veterinarian about who they see more often for genetic problems - mutts or purebreds?

I asked this very question of my Vet, and she indicated in her practice that she saw more genetic problems and general health problems of the pure breeds she treats. And for the record I have 4 pure bred malteses (one is from a AKC champion father) and 1 pure chihuahua. And I never begrudge anyone their choice in pets. If a mixed "designer" breed fits their lifestyle, then so be it. As long as they are responsible furparents, that is all that matters.

 

[need_a_Disney_fix]

I wasn't going to chime in but I have just backspaced for the last time.

Some of these responses are so idiotic on this thread, I would like to reach through this computer and shake some sense into some people if I could.

You could tell alot of these responses come frompeople who have never seen a puppy mill in real life. Who have never seen a perfectly healthy dog put down just because a good home could not be found in time.

Protest you say, I have thank you very much. I have worked with a collie rescue group for many years. I have seen many dogs bought on impulse because they were 'cute" puppies and now are an inconvenience. I've seen 2 yo dogs who can't walk or see. Why because people continue to buy puppies from breeders who don't give a crap about the pups they are helping to create but the almighty buck. When you buy a designer dog from a backyard breeder(because no reputable breeder would ever put their kennel name on a mixed breed) or from a pet store, you are not rescueing the dog, you are promoting the backyard breeder.

Yea, the dogs are cute. The are many cute dogs put down every day. Defend your dog and your choice anyway you feel you must to make yourself feel better, but bottom line is until people stop buying for convenience the poor animal population doesn't have a chance.

I am sorry for anything that I said in previous posts. I will now admit that I am an idiot and promise I will never get another pet in my lifetime. Evidently, I know nothing and cannot raise a dog responsibly.

 

[Nana Annie]

Do you folks find it rewarding to make a person, such as myself, feel like absolute crap? Do you know how much time I put into research before we got Lucy? Do you know how much I care about the puppy mill situation? I realize this is your passion, but don't you EVER put me in that category of willy nilly buying of these dogs. You have caused my panties to go in a major twist. Until you really know me...don't accuse me of anything. Gawd, I'm rambling now. Thanks for making my day! Hope you feel good about it.

I've said it once but I think some read & see only what they want.

It goes both ways. Laurie - perhaps you want to re-read my many posts. I congratulated you for doing your homework and getting a dog from somebody who seems to do all the right things, according to you.

There is a website for Golden/Labradoodles, there is a comparison for all the dogs signed up on the website as to whether they are no, low, or high shedders. No one is trying to lie about or hide anything.

I am no idiot when it comes to dogs. I did not foolishly decide on this breed. I sat up on the internet and discussion groups for these dogs and did MONTHS (not hours) of research before considering this breed.

Other breeds we considered and I researched were Bearded Collie, BMD, Collie, Standard Poodle, and Golden Retriever. We finally felt that this combination was best for our family.

I don't recall anybody saying you were an idiot. However, I do recall debating the merits of breeding mixed breeds vs. purebreds.

A Goldendoodle is NOT a breed. It is a cute name for a mixed breed or a cross-bred dog. Just that fact that you state that they can be non-shedding, low-shedding or high-shedding proves that point. A "breed" breeds true to its standard every time.

Even the Goldendoodle people say that they are just concerned with first generations. That is not a breed. That is breeding two dogs to create a cute mixed breed.

Nothing wrong with that, but call a spade a spade. None of the "doodles" are breeds.

 

[Nana Annie]

I asked this very question of my Vet, and she indicated in her practice that she saw more genetic problems and general health problems of the pure breeds she treats. And for the record I have 4 pure bred malteses (one is from a AKC champion father) and 1 pure chihuahua. And I never begrudge anyone their choice in pets. If a mixed "designer" breed fits their lifestyle, then so be it. As long as they are responsible furparents, that is all that matters.

I am sure your vet does absolutely see more genetic problems with purebreds than the designer dogs. But according to my vet, that is because the vets are dealing on a day-to-day basis with the enormity of bad "purebred" breedings from puppymills and backyard breeders.

Although a cute phenomenon right now, the designer dogs just haven't hit the same population as the enormous amount of 'purebred" cockers, labs, goldens, beagles, etc that are being bred by puppymills and backyard breeders who could care less what they are passing on to their puppies.

So, yes, it would be absolutely normal for a vet to see more poorly bred purebreds than poorly bred designer dogs, as the poorly bred purebreds far outnumber the poorly bred designer dogs.

 

[hiwaygal]

I asked this very question of my Vet, and she indicated in her practice that she saw more genetic problems and general health problems of the pure breeds she treats. And for the record I have 4 pure bred malteses (one is from a AKC champion father) and 1 pure chihuahua. And I never begrudge anyone their choice in pets. If a mixed "designer" breed fits their lifestyle, then so be it. As long as they are responsible furparents, that is all that matters.

I'm glad everyone here loves their pets...and I'm very happy to see that some put a great deal more thought into purchasing a dog than many people do! That means that progress is being made! Years ago, people always went to the pet store...and there are still far too many puppies given as Christmas gifts.

I'm the first to admit that I have had pet-shop and puppy mill dogs. Of course, that was long before I knew better. Now, I can probably guarantee that I'll end up with more puppymill/pet-shop dogs...but I will get them from a shelter or rescue. No breeder (reputable or not) will get my $$$ because I am purchasing a pet, not a show dog...THAT is my choice.

The thing about the mixed-breeds fitting a lifestyle seems weird to me (although I guess I can understand how it could happen). With over 150 breeeds registered with the AKC...I find it hard to believe that someone couldn't find a breed that would fit their lifestyle.