Miers Supported Ban on Most Abortions

[cardaway]

So you'd be ok with a "good parent" test before we allow people to have children? We sorta have one AFTER the fact but it's too late then, the horse is already out and someone just closed the barn door.

I'm don't think I'm quite following you there, but I will add this. We certainly test people who would like to adopt. So we care if the adopters are good parents, but we don't care if the people we are forcing are up to the task? (And FTR, I don't think a test is a good idea, just trying to respond)

"putting them down" by "calling them irresponsible"?? They ARE irresponsible IF they have an unplanned pregnancy. How else would you describe it? When someone does something irresponsible (but not necessarily illegal), shouldn't they be held accountable in some way?

IMO (sure people with moral objections will disagree) people met my defintion of being responsible when they tried some form of birth control. IMO the intent means everything.

People who say they wanted a kid every time they had sex would be lying. They'll say they were open to it, but that's usually the ones who haven't been hit by the down side of the percent yet.

So how about it Charade? Should we allow the ultimate birth control, the morning after pill, because that certainly solves things as long as they are responsible to take it?

 

[Charade]

I'm don't think I'm quite following you there, but I will add this. We certainly test people who would like to adopt. So we care if the adopters are good parents, but we don't care if the people we are forcing are up to the task? (And FTR, I don't think a test is a good idea, just trying to respond)

You said

They also would not be the people I would like to see become mothers.

I just thought you'd be ok with testing parenting skills BEFORE we let a woman (or couple) get pregnant. Sorry if I assumed wrong. But I find in quite odd that we have "tests" for adoptive parents but not birth parents. Don't you?

So how about it Charade? Should we allow the ultimate birth control, the morning after pill, because that certainly solves things as long as they are responsible to take it?

How's about we go back 12 hours and start there.

 

[cardaway]

Sorry if I assumed wrong. But I find in quite odd that we have "tests" for adoptive parents but not birth parents. Don't you?

No! Way too much subjectivity beyond the economic situation of the perspective parents, and even then on that people probably couldn't agree.

How's about we go back 12 hours and start there.

Now I've really lost you. What's wrong with the responsibility of preventing the pregnancy with the morning after pill?

 

[JennyMominRI]

No! Way too much subjectivity beyond the economic situation of the perspective parents, and even then on that people probably couldn't agree.



Now I've really lost you. What's wrong with the responsibility of preventing the pregnancy with the morning after pill?

I'm assuming that most people who against the morning after pill think it is an abortificant

 

[Charade]

No! Way too much subjectivity beyond the economic situation of the perspective parents, and even then on that people probably couldn't agree.

I guess you lost me now. We have the ability to tell if adoptive parents are capable (financially and emotionally) of raising a child that's not even their blood but somehow we can't apply the same standards to prospective birth parents?

Now I've really lost you. What's wrong with the responsibility of preventing the pregnancy with the morning after pill?

At that point a woman may be terminating a pregnancy (or not). If she and her male partner both used BC the night before, chances are pretty darn good that a pregnancy won't occur.

 

[MizBlu]

Amen.

Miers would get my vote.

Howdie Doodie would get your vote if Bush nominated him.

 

[cardaway]

I'm assuming that most people who against the morning after pill think it is an abortificant

I realize that, but those same people feel the same way about current BC pills, and I don't see a equally sizable group wanting to outlaw them.

As Charade just pointed out, it's seen as responsible to use BC pills.

 

[cardaway]

I guess you lost me now. We have the ability to tell if adoptive parents are capable (financially and emotionally) of raising a child that's not even their blood but somehow we can't apply the same standards to prospective birth parents?

I see now, but I don't agree with that connection or am I willing to go down that path.

At that point a woman may be terminating a pregnancy (or not). If she and her male partner both used BC the night before, chances are pretty darn good that a pregnancy won't occur.

BC pills basically do the same thing. If you want to make a responsibility argument, let people be repsonsible. If not, give up that arguement.

 

[DisDuck]

All medical evidence so far has indicated that the Plan-B(morning after pill) is NOT an abortifact. When the FDA chairman (at the time) this past August delayed yet again on ruling that Plan-B can be over the counter one of the medical personnel on the committee recommending over-the-counter resigned. This was in protest of a political/religious decision being made over a sound medical decision.

I bet that if the Plan-B was offered over-the-counter then the number of abortions would continue to decrease.

 

[WatchinCaptKangaroo]

There was a HUGE increase in crime in the late 60s early 70s. The experts thought for sure that we'd be in country ruled by crime and near police state in 20 years. It never materialized.

Why?


Because abortion became legal and women who never wanted to be mothers in the first place (who would also raise children who had a high risk to join a gang or other criminal activity to get attention and a sense of belonging) had abortions.

 

[eclectics]

There was a HUGE increase in crime in the late 60s early 70s. The experts thought for sure that we'd be in country ruled by crime and near police state in 20 years. It never materialized.

Why?


Because abortion became legal and women who never wanted to be mothers in the first place (who would also raise children who had a high risk to join a gang or other criminal activity to get attention and a sense of belonging) had abortions.

Huh?

 

[JMD]

There was a HUGE increase in crime in the late 60s early 70s. The experts thought for sure that we'd be in country ruled by crime and near police state in 20 years. It never materialized.

Why?


Because abortion became legal and women who never wanted to be mothers in the first place (who would also raise children who had a high risk to join a gang or other criminal activity to get attention and a sense of belonging) had abortions.

Thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

 

[hokiefan33]

Howdie Doodie would get your vote if Bush nominated him.

Possibly. But Howdie Doodie would also probably get your vote if Bush said he wasn't qualified.

 

[DianeV]

A few points:

I get a little tired of pro lifers who want women to keep these babies but dont think about what kind of life these babies will have. I dont see them lining up to take these babies and raise them as their own

Also alot of those babies that werent wanted end up where my husband works...a jail. Do you think a baby who isnt wanted is going to be shown love and brought up the right way? I am pretty sure that many people in jail were born to a mother who didnt want a baby or shouldnt have had a baby

Further some of these babies who are brought up by mothers who didnt want them may end up being more involved in crime and lets say they end up facing the death penalty some day. Is that ok then? Is it ok to kill them that way because there is justification that they are 'bad'?

What about the post I saw recently on these boards about someone trying to decide if she should call and report a possibly neglected child? Should that mother have had that child if what the person suspects is true? Is that child having a good life?

I only see that many pro lifers are one sided and dont want to think about or consider what happens AFTER.... after the baby is "saved" and "saved" for what?

 

[Tigger_Magic]

A few points:

I get a little tired of pro lifers who want women to keep these babies but dont think about what kind of life these babies will have. I dont see them lining up to take these babies and raise them as their own

I get so tired of this "argument." How does anyone come up with the idea that total strangers are responsible for the irresponsible choices a woman makes? I just don't accept this "it takes a village" mentality.

Also alot of those babies that werent wanted end up where my husband works...a jail. Do you think a baby who isnt wanted is going to be shown love and brought up the right way? I am pretty sure that many people in jail were born to a mother who didnt want a baby or shouldnt have had a baby

Further some of these babies who are brought up by mothers who didnt want them may end up being more involved in crime and lets say they end up facing the death penalty some day. Is that ok then? Is it ok to kill them that way because there is justification that they are 'bad'?

If "mommie" doesn't want to get pregnant and have a(nother) baby, then maybe "mommie" should either practice some pre-sex birth control or just keep her legs crossed for once.

 

[cardaway]

I get so tired of this "argument." How does anyone come up with the idea that total strangers are responsible for the irresponsible choices a woman makes? I just don't accept this "it takes a village" mentality.

While I'm not going agree to the "they're all going to end up in jail" posts recently, I do think it's irresponsible to only talk about changing one half of the equation. When looking at the overall platform of the majority of people looking to make abortion illegal you have a group looking to create more teen/poor families, but at the same time trying to take away any help those families would get. It's a stretch to say they will all end up raising criminals as a result, but it certainly isn't logical IMO. I think everybody can agree that in most cases we are not talking model citizens here.

Just like I have repsect for people who would outlaw ALL abortions, rather than be wishy washy based on their choice on who is worhty, the same goes for people who would also step up to the plate and give these teens the help they need to raise the baby you are forcing them to have.

And what about while these women carrying the baby. It's entirely likely that somebody with an unwanted pregnancy is not going to follow, or even be finacially able to follow the recommended process for carrying that baby to term. What do you plan to do about that?

 

[DianeV]

You can say should or could or I am not responsible for them but you arent being realistic at all

In a perfect world it would be your way but its not and we all have to deal with that - you cant on one hand try to say we should force women to have babies if they get pregnant for whatever reason but then say hey its your kid when they do have it. How many of those who harass women at clinics would be willing to tell that woman if they have the baby they will raise it for her?

Alot of judging but but no helping

 

[DianeV]

cardaway: I hope I didnt make it sound like all unwanted babies end up in jail..not at all! However many of my husbands "clients" do come from bad homes with parents or a parent who obviously had no control over them or perhaps didnt even care...not ALL NO I am not saying that

Dont you think its pretty bad when someone in jail gets better treatment as far as food shelter clothing etc then some of the children out there being raised by someone who should not be a parent?

 

[cardaway]

cardaway: I hope I didnt make it sound like all unwanted babies end up in jail..not at all! However many of my husbands "clients" do come from bad homes with parents or a parent who obviously had no control over them or perhaps didnt even care...not ALL NO I am not saying that

Dont you think its pretty bad when someone in jail gets better treatment as far as food shelter clothing etc then some of the children out there being raised by someone who should not be a parent?

I am on your side overall, but I refuse to even touch the jail deal. No direct link to abortion therefore another topic IMO.

 

[cardaway]

In a perfect world it would be your way but its not and we all have to deal with that - you cant on one hand try to say we should force women to have babies if they get pregnant for whatever reason but then say hey its your kid when they do have it. How many of those who harass women at clinics would be willing to tell that woman if they have the baby they will raise it for her?

In a perfect world the woman will be able to say "take out these cells" and the people who are fighting for it will have to take it and raise it as their own. In the interim it's my opinion that we can't force women into carrying to term because we haven't reached that point yet.

The cells don't have a right to the womans body.