middle class income?

[taaren]

Definitely depends on your location. Here on Maui no locals can find a home for less than half a million, at least not in an okay neighborhood, so many condos are in fact, not middle class (the few that are under $200K are scary neighborhoods). A gallon of milk starts at $5, so does our gas sometimes ... and many people work 2 jobs in tourist related industries that don't pay well. DH and I are both fortunate to have state jobs with good benefits, but in California the same jobs pay about 140% as much as they do here. So people who are struggling are still fairly middle class (despite the fact that they own a half a million dollar home since they can't sell it they need to live in something). I guess there's no real middle class here ...

 

[danceintherain]

Research has shown that the majority of people classify themselves as middle class (I got my undergrad in Sociology, but I don't remember the reference). Middle class is the "norm" and everyone wants to be normal. Whether that is justified or not cannot be proven, because there are too many variables and not everyone agrees.
The New York Times did an article a while back (2005...or something) to put people into classes, but that's just the determination of one publication. Though I'm sure they used Census data to determine which things fit into which categories.
Here's a link to a graph that will generate a class for you if you're curious: http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/national/20050515_CLASS_GRAPHIC/index_01.html
It also has some results from some surveys done about class.

By it's determination, we have no class due to occupation, because military officer and stay at home mom are not included on the lists (we would probably be somewhere in the middle considering the nature of my husband's job, but who knows?)
Our Educational class is considered to be in the Top 5th, because we both have Bachelor's Degrees.
We're somewhere between Middle and Upper Middle based on our income (depending on if you include our housing allowance)
Our Wealth would put us in the lower class, because we're still in debt (student loans) thus we haven't had the chance to build up our savings or buy our own home.

In general, class tends to be based on perception, especially the occupation category. The other parts are a bit more quantitative, but if you were to tell someone that they are lower class, they would likely argue with you, even if the numbers told them otherwise. Nobody wants to be lower class, and many Americans act as if they are middle class even if they don't have the funds to back it up. Oddly enough, there are some people who are upper class that still classify themselves as middle class. The rationale behind that confuses me more than the lower saying they're middle, but I suppose even many of the very wealthy wish to be considered normal.

 

[simonkodousek]

"""

 

[DawnM]

I think we live in similar areas.

City-Data has the

median income for my area is: $150,000
median income for the state is $43,674
Estimated median home price: $575,000
Estimated median home for NC: $155,500

Gracious, I thought it was a little lower since it was actually lower last year....these are the new stats. I did round down so as not to give away exactly where I live.

Dawn

This thread has really sparked some interest in me for information about my area/zip code.

The median income for my area is $108,998.
The median state income is $49,993.

And apparently the median property value here is $384,303. I have no idea where City Data is pulling that information from; as I said in an earlier post, the average single family home in this area is $800,000.

 

[DawnM]

One article I read implied that most Americans consider themselves "middle class" these days, ranging from high school graduates to working professionals with post graduate degrees......and everything in between.

I understand your point, but I still think it is a common phrase to say, "middle class" when referring to your economic status.

Now, if you are referring to people "with class" as defined by social graces, well, that is a whole different topic!

Dawn

actually if you look.. it is "working class"... then under that comes the varies incomes..(we are not the elite class, we all work ) but yes, most do in fact relate their income to their class.. but it really isn't so.. "class" is more social, "income" is monetary. Many many many years ago, the "lower income" could not go to college, they could not own homes, they were not well groomed, or well spoken.. no education basically.. so they were "low class" of lower status than those who earned more and could afford more. It is not like that anymore. The class has nothing to do with the salary ranges. When you go from making say $75K to $30K.. does that automatically put you down from "middle class" to "lower class".. no it doesn't. Your social status has not changed, only your income, therefore you are no longer "middle income", but lower income"

 

[Waybuloo]

Wow, what an interesting thread. We're in one of the smaller states in Australia and I'm totally amazed by the massive different in cost of living you guys are mentioning.

Our tax rate is 48%. Then 10% on top of all Goods and Service purchased.

Our house is a single, not lavish and not near a city, it cost over $500,000 (normal). Small blocks of land start at $200,000 here.

I'd say we're middle class as we've got clothes, food and shelter that are our own. Our total debts are worth 4x our yearly income (before tax).

To give an idea of costs of living
Bread: $3.00 a loaf
Milk: $1.50 a litre
Unleaded Petrol and Diesel: $1.45 a litre
Car registration (one car): $700 a year
Car insurance (one car): $700 a year
House tax/rates: $1400 a year
Daycare: $1500 a month

 

[nunzia]

Interesting! I'd never looked up the city-data thing before.

Estimated median household income in 2009: $40,285

This zip code:
$40,285
New Mexico:
$43,028
Poor state overall, so we make mid 50's (both work..I have a Bachelors I don't use and DH has an Associate that he does..Vet Tech) and are quite a bit above average. We got our house for a steal (fixer upper..pretty close to fixer-d upp-d) at $60K and our mortgage is $450 a month so it will be paid off very early. 2 cars, paid off, no debt, plugging away at retirement and other saving and travel too much but want to do things before we become too creaky. We used to be very low income when the kids were little, so still live pretty frugally (except for travel), and we feel we are in a good place with income and finances now.

 

[BridgetBordeaux]

Wow.......those Australia numbers are pretty intense. Thanks for sharing the info.

 

[punkin]

Wow, what an interesting thread. We're in one of the smaller states in Australia and I'm totally amazed by the massive different in cost of living you guys are mentioning.

Our tax rate is 48%. Then 10% on top of all Goods and Service purchased.

Our house is a single, not lavish and not near a city, it cost over $500,000 (normal). Small blocks of land start at $200,000 here.

I'd say we're middle class as we've got clothes, food and shelter that are our own. Our total debts are worth 4x our yearly income (before tax).

To give an idea of costs of living
Bread: $3.00 a loaf
Milk: $1.50 a litre
Unleaded Petrol and Diesel: $1.45 a litre
Car registration (one car): $700 a year
Car insurance (one car): $700 a year
House tax/rates: $1400 a year
Daycare: $1500 a month

Wow, that's a lot. Our debt load is 2X income and that's pretty much the house. I would be very uncomfortable with anything over 3X.

 

[Colleen27]

It is absolutely relative to local cost of living. We're very much working class, but we have most of the trappings associated with middle class life We just happen to live in such a cheap area that a single blue-collar income goes a long way. We have a home, two cars, retirement/college savings, vacations, and can afford everything we need and some of what we want without incurring debt to do it. But our home cost less than you'd need for a downpayment in many markets, and that makes all the rest a LOT easier because we didn't have to borrow to buy it.

As far as class in the non-monetary sense of the work I do consider us working/lower-middle class. DH is in construction as are a lot of our friends, we live in a small town where entertainment is bands playing at a riverfront park, community festivals, and Friday night high school football, and our overall lifestyle is very small town middle America.

 

[Colleen27]

Here's a link to a graph that will generate a class for you if you're curious: http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/national/20050515_CLASS_GRAPHIC/index_01.html
It also has some results from some surveys done about class.

That's interesting. There wasn't really an occupational class that works for either of us, but the closest for DH were all mid-30s percentile (he's self-employed in construction but our business is small enough that he's still a roofer & carpenter as well as owner & supervisor). That's our lowest measure by far and the only one that aligns with our self-perception.

 

[punkin]

That's interesting. There wasn't really an occupational class that works for either of us, but the closest for DH were all mid-30s percentile (he's self-employed in construction but our business is small enough that he's still a roofer & carpenter as well as owner & supervisor). That's our lowest measure by far and the only one that aligns with our self-perception.

DH's occupational class isn't listed either. I wonder where "government worker" ranks in prestige?

I also wonder what my occupational class is: what I did when I worked or SAHM? We are solidly top 5th for the others. However, those numbers are from 2001, no?

 

[A Mickeyfan]

I wouldn't put you in the low class based on your income changing from 75 to 30, or what have you. To me, you're still middle class, living comfortable, the way you want to.

Low class to me, seems to be those trying to keep up with the Joneses, those with upside down mortgages, consumer debt from buying the latest tv and gadgets. But on the outside, they look like the typical "American Middle class" living in the suburbs.

The rich don't get rich by spending. To me that means, a typical family learning to stretch a dollar to have more in the long run. Sure they could go out and buy what they want, but why do it if you don't have to?


Low class, middle income, the poor... America needs a total revamping on these terms and what they should mean. Because middle income shouldn't cover just about every one's salary minus the very rich or the very poor. I think I read some where that middle class starts at like 24,000 and goes to like 250,000... Something just doesn't seem right with that.

my point in a nutshell! low class and low income are 2 totally different things... The words are used interchangeable in today's society.. and they really are not. I am not saying that everyone hear meant that low class is "not classy and tacky", I know what they meant... but I was trying to just point out how the words really are different.. I am not low class, but due to things beyond our control, we dropped from middle income to low income.. our morals & where we live have not changed, but our spending has.. Those that continue to spend as they did making the bigger bucks are those that are of a lower class.. trying to keep up with the Jones's.. and they all sink in a hole.. It isn't what you have to impress someone else.. it is what you can afford to have for you...not others..

You might be right on those figures, but don't they also go by the total number in the household too???? while a single person may have an income of say $24K, that same $24K won't go as far for a family of 3??? That changes the income level.. or am I wrong???

 

[A Mickeyfan]

DH's occupational class isn't listed either. I wonder where "government worker" ranks in prestige?

I also wonder what my occupational class is: what I did when I worked or SAHM? We are solidly top 5th for the others. However, those numbers are from 2001, no?

We "government" workers were considered to be Civil Servants at one time.. therefore we were considered to be servants to the other working class people.. Remember the term.. Civil Servant.. what does Servant mean....

 

[A Mickeyfan]

I was just thinking too.. income levels should also go by where you live too.. While you can make say $70K somewhere in Fl & that is considered awesome.. but that same $70K in NYC isn't much at all....

I wonder who really sets these standards, who sets the figure guideline.. and where do they get it from??? Do they take the "average" from each state, add them up, then average that out for the average and make a range from that for middle income???

and while I am at it... just who gives the S&P the rights to lower the U.S.'s credit ratings? Who placed them in charge of our County's credit

I really do wonder these things sometimes.. makes for a good non-argumentative (I think) topic!

 

[A Mickeyfan]

Research has shown that the majority of people classify themselves as middle class (I got my undergrad in Sociology, but I don't remember the reference). Middle class is the "norm" and everyone wants to be normal. Whether that is justified or not cannot be proven, because there are too many variables and not everyone agrees.
The New York Times did an article a while back (2005...or something) to put people into classes, but that's just the determination of one publication. Though I'm sure they used Census data to determine which things fit into which categories.
Here's a link to a graph that will generate a class for you if you're curious: http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/national/20050515_CLASS_GRAPHIC/index_01.html
It also has some results from some surveys done about class.

By it's determination, we have no class due to occupation, because military officer and stay at home mom are not included on the lists (we would probably be somewhere in the middle considering the nature of my husband's job, but who knows?)
Our Educational class is considered to be in the Top 5th, because we both have Bachelor's Degrees.
We're somewhere between Middle and Upper Middle based on our income (depending on if you include our housing allowance)
Our Wealth would put us in the lower class, because we're still in debt (student loans) thus we haven't had the chance to build up our savings or buy our own home.

In general, class tends to be based on perception, especially the occupation category. The other parts are a bit more quantitative, but if you were to tell someone that they are lower class, they would likely argue with you, even if the numbers told them otherwise. Nobody wants to be lower class, and many Americans act as if they are middle class even if they don't have the funds to back it up. Oddly enough, there are some people who are upper class that still classify themselves as middle class. The rationale behind that confuses me more than the lower saying they're middle, but I suppose even many of the very wealthy wish to be considered normal.

Am I reading this link correctly where it shows the education level and then the income level next to it? That doesn't mean that level of education will get you that level income will it? Down here in Fl, that income for HS is a joke.. you make that with a degree in the majority of the places. Teachers start out in the low $30's and that is with a BA!

 

[SandrA9810]

I was just thinking too.. income levels should also go by where you live too.. While you can make say $70K somewhere in Fl & that is considered awesome.. but that same $70K in NYC isn't much at all....

I wonder who really sets these standards, who sets the figure guideline.. and where do they get it from??? Do they take the "average" from each state, add them up, then average that out for the average and make a range from that for middle income???

and while I am at it... just who gives the S&P the rights to lower the U.S.'s credit ratings? Who placed them in charge of our County's credit

I really do wonder these things sometimes.. makes for a good non-argumentative (I think) topic!

You don't even need to change states to see an income difference. I grew up in Miami, and then lived in Orlando/Kissimmee for 4 years. What we had in Kissimmee, we never had living in Hollywood (and that was as cheap as it got). But the standards were across the board no matter what city you lived in. We always made above poverty, but never enough to be comfortable. Got wrapped up in robbing Peter (credit cards) to pay Paul (gas, rent, and food), only when we moved to Kissimmee were we able to start unraveling that ball.


Some comparisons: Hollywood vs Kissimmee
Rent - $550 for about 250 sqft vs $550 for 500 sq ft
Car Insurance - $150 for one car vs $60 for one car
Gas - On average is 10 cents cheaper in the middle of the state


I think $24,000 is starting for a couple/no children. I believe it's a five grand increase per additional person.

 

[JamesMom]

Hi, I am replying to a few questions people made regarding my post which in retrospect was probably too much information

1 - The medical debt is being paid in 2 years interest free with the hospital
2 - I prefer the security of having CASH in the bank to pay the mortgage, utilities and food in case hubby gets laid off or whatnot in lieu of paid off credit cards. Yes, I understand I could pay them off, but it would take about a year to build the savings back (credit card only, not medical) - not good enough for me. Yes, I might loss a thousand dollars over the life of the 'loan' to interest, but I sleep better at night with the cash than without. In this worse case scenario, I would much rather default on the credit cards than the house or grocery store if hubby got laid off tomorrow.
3 - The college funds are fully funded thanks to an inheritence and are prepaid tuition plans for my 2 children - 4 years of college for each.
4 - Hubby's employer matches 401(k) so that would be leaving salary on the table to not contribute.
I know my families 'priorities' might not line up with Ramsey disciples, but it works for us.

 

[cats mom]

Well, you are hitting on something that is not related to income at all or to middle class definition.

If I make $250K per year but spend $300K per year, I am poorer than the person making $75K and who spends only $50K.

The PP isn't in that category, but this is a huge problem in our country....overspending.

Dawn

Absolutely

Oddly enough, there are some people who are upper class that still classify themselves as middle class. The rationale behind that confuses me more than the lower saying they're middle, but I suppose even many of the very wealthy wish to be considered normal.

I can't answer for everyone, but I'm guessing in many cases it has to do with cost of living.

Our income is almost 2X the median for our city and at least 2.5X the median for the state, but we can't even afford a decent SFR in our area, at least not using any traditionally accepted, sound, financial metric.

Why? We moved to a location that experienced a huge house price bubble, not to mention the effects of prop 13, which protects a specific demographic, but punishes any and all future home owners. I know, I know, blasphemy in the state of California, but it's true.

I recently pulled sales numbers and tax records on 2 identical tract houses in our neighborhood (where we rent because we can't afford to buy)

House 1
Sold for $320,000 in 1998
Yearly property tax $7,634

House 2
Sold for $1,040,500 in 2008
Yearly property tax $15,322

Prices are down from that 2008 number now, but not much. So how does that even make sense? A neighborhood that was originally targeted to, and affordable for, middle income households now requires an income solidly in the top 5th percentile, if not higher, for the numbers to make sense.

Yet every politician out there is pandering to the masses about putting a floor under housing prices. Umm, why? More money would be pumped into the economy if housing was actually affordable given actual incomes.

Anyway, very long post just to say that while I think every chart quoted in this thread puts us solidly upper middle if not higher, we certainly don't feel like it, and we wouldn't classify ourselves as such... especially since we're just renters.

 

[A Mickeyfan]

You don't even need to change states to see an income difference. I grew up in Miami, and then lived in Orlando/Kissimmee for 4 years. What we had in Kissimmee, we never had living in Hollywood (and that was as cheap as it got). But the standards were across the board no matter what city you lived in. We always made above poverty, but never enough to be comfortable. Got wrapped up in robbing Peter (credit cards) to pay Paul (gas, rent, and food), only when we moved to Kissimmee were we able to start unraveling that ball.


Some comparisons: Hollywood vs Kissimmee
Rent - $550 for about 250 sqft vs $550 for 500 sq ft
Car Insurance - $150 for one car vs $60 for one car
Gas - On average is 10 cents cheaper in the middle of the state


I think $24,000 is starting for a couple/no children. I believe it's a five grand increase per additional person.

You are 100% correct.. you don't have to leave the State... My taxes and homeowners insurance are much higher than what my friends and sisters are... but salary's are more or less the same for my field.. Education..