Mental health issues, and those affected indirectly

[barkley]

And if you ever need to question/go after his competency, you will need clear evidence and examples too.

if this ever becomes the case your dh and his sibs may want to strongly consider a public guardian. i am the legal guardian of my disabled adult son and the only reason i'm able to do so is b/c he is very co-operative and does not create diffucult or challenging situations. your bil sounds like someone that could create a lot of issues as well as viewing a guardian as a personal assistant/housekeeper/jack of all trades. a public guardian who has no personal relationship would be best poised to set boundaries and expectations.

p.s. as far as social security disability do you know if his application was for SSD or SSI (SSD requires a certain number of completed work quarters over a period of years prior to application and his work record sounds sporadic at best)? if it's SSI and he is ultimatly approved then there will be income and resource limits so whomever helps mil with her estate planning may want to engage a good elder law attorney who can structure bil's inheritance in a trust that does not create upwards of years of ineligibility to SSI or any other supportive services he may initially become eligible to (and the trustee for his portion can be named as whomever serves as his guardian b/c that's a whole other set of headaches).

 

[easyas123]

start keeping a log

Excellent suggestion.

 

[Kathryn Merteuil]

Honestly I do not know what kind of disability he is applying for. He worked maybe 4 jobs in 2024. Most recently was like October, it was something in book keeping for a small company. That lasted a couple weeks. It was a case where he went through training, and got fired shortly afterwards. Of course DH got all mad and contacted the guy who fired him (they distantly knew each other). That guy told DH what happened... it seems like he had EXPLICIT instructions to NOT do something while the (he boss/owner) was off for a couple days. What did BIL do??? Exactly as he was told NOT to do. He was told to not mess with deposits, yep he took it upon himself to go to the bank and make the deposits, into the WRONG account.

Before that, it was in some warehouse cataloging parts... yea that lasted couple weeks.
He had a job at some hotel in book keeping, two weeks maybe that lasted.
Another book keeping position for a small company... a couple weeks tops.

It as suggested to him that he find something outside of book keeping, his degree is in accounting, but maybe his knowledge is outdated. I know at one point he got a job at a supermarket. I think he lasted one day. I think he didn't like it and never bothered going back in.

 

[Kathryn Merteuil]

I don’t mean to come off as an angry person. I know I have a major issue with denial. I tend to ignore things, pretend they don’t exist in order to avoid conflict. Eventually I reach the point where I just come unglued.

 

[C&Jx2]

It sounds like your brother has more of a personality disorder like BPD with depressive features. Boundaries are the most important thing for dealing with people with disorders such as borderline personality DO. He should find a provider who specializes in personality disorders because unfortunately, many write them off as less deserving than those with "true" mental illness.

 

[Kathryn Merteuil]

I have also observed that depression seems to suck the life out of those around the person. I am starting to feel GUILTY and regret for things going OK on my end. Every month the company puts out a newsletter email. As silly as it is, I was so proud to be pictured as a "top producer" for the month on like page 16. When DH came home Friday, I had the computer open and was going to show him. He was in the most foul mood, so I didn't. I call my dad every Sunday... it's just a thing I do. I got off the phone with him. DH asked "how's your dad"? I said he is doing fine... His reply is "glad somebody is". It is like I am afraid to even express any kind of happiness.

 

[Kathryn Merteuil]

I am not even sure what "clinical depression" is, but SEVERAL years ago I was diagnosed as having that. I am not sure if I ever actually was, or if I still am. I do take like a small dosage of sertraline daily because the dr said it would be a good idea for me. I dunno, I tend to be a bit high-strung at times, and tend to panic. Maybe that mellows me out some.

When I was diagnosed with the "clinical depression", I had just lost my mother, I was in a disastrous marriage, and in a career I absolutely hated. I am not saying I did things the "right way", but I did what I had to do make the changes that I felt were necessary to survive.

 

[Kathryn Merteuil]

It sounds like your brother has more of a personality disorder like BPD with depressive features. Boundaries are the most important thing for dealing with people with disorders such as borderline personality DO. He should find a provider who specializes in personality disorders because unfortunately, many write them off as less deserving than those with "true" mental illness.

You may be on to something with the BPD seriously. It is one of those things I am kind of hearing everything 2nd hand about his diagnosis. I know he has a team of about 3 doctors right now that he is working with. His treatment right now has been varied doses of some kind of antidepressant and another one (which I think I have seen advertised on TV that I cannot remember the name right now) that serves as an add on.

Since this has started, I have seen a definite change in DH... I feel as if he is being dragged right down with him at this point. This was NOT a good weekend.

 

[LuvOrlando]

#1 When I say annihilated, I mean there was poo on the toilet seat, top of the toilet lid, the wall, the floor, the sides of the toilet, the trashcan, toilet brush AND the door facing. He used an entire roll of toilet paper, threw it in the trashcan.... and to add insult to injury the dog dragged it out of the trashcan when I went upstairs to get cleaning supplies. and YES.... he stopped up the toilet. It as a DISASTER.

I guess he called his mother and let her know there had been in "incident", because she was calls me and said she would have him bring her out there and she would clean it up. (yes she just recently had surgery and was unable to drive). Him cleaning it up himself was never even an option, besides he wouldn't have done it right anyway. (yes we have had issues with him skidmarking toilet seats and saying he will clean it up and he never does or if he did clean up his mess he did a very poor because he leaves behind evidence) I told her nevermind, I already did it. I was not going to have an 80-something year old lady who just had surgery come all the way out here just to clean up his mess. The smell alone prompted me to get to resolve the issue ASAP.

#2 DH SAYS there is no way he can live with him. We agree on that.

#3/#4 We have only touched upon the level of assistance.... he will get his share of the sale of MIL's house when she passes. DH SAYS surely with that amt of money, he SHOULD be able to find a place to live. I literally would not be opposed to helping him pay rent somewhere just to NOT have him in our house. (however, that might not be realistic considering he does not have a job) However, he should be getting close enough to retirement age, that MIGHT help.

#5 I agree her heart is in the right place, but I almost hold her responsible for creating this monster. She constantly runs behind him picking up after him, cleans up his messes, ALLOWS him to live rent free. She guilts other family members into helping out. We have finally reached the point of laying down a hard rule we will NOT take his tests for him when applying for a job. It seems like a lot of jobs have those "MS Office proficiency tests"..... yea DH and I would take the tests for him. He wanted to get into banking, so I once took the test for him because I knew exactly what to say. Finally it was my step-daughter had a sit-down with him and MIL and was like "this is why he keeps getting fired" he can get a job but he has no skills, he has other people pass the tests for him. Therefore when it come time to perform, he is not capable. He will go through training, and get fired shortly after that. Of course it is always "somebody else's fault"... sometimes it might be, but this many times in a row... I think we all (besides him and his mother) know he is the problem.

#6 I have not had any involvement with his providers. DH and MIL always accompany him. I would HOPE there might be some know of low income housing he would qualify for. Again, it is hard for a 50-something year old man to justify not being able to do "something". They are working on getting him disability, his doctors are helping, and he has met with a lawyer.

#7... he does NOT seem to have rage issues thankfully. When he is breaking things around their house, it is due to NEGLIGENCE. He is always yanking drawers off the track. He ran over stuff in the garage with his car and made big mess, and messed up his car some because he wasn't paying attention while parking. He drove around on a flat tire and messed up that on his car. He takes no responsibility for his negligent actions, he is like oops, I did this... mom clean this up or find somebody who can fix this. For example his surround sound was not working, and it was up to my stepdaughter to fix it. Since she watches TV, to my MIL that meant she had the proper skillset to troubleshoot his home theater issues. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what was wrong. The problem was he had LOST the remote. She was expected to fix it for him, but she was like I can do nothing without the remote. If we had the remote we could make it work, but we don't have that. I think they are ordering another one of Amazon or something now.

Reading all of this I wonder if he also has undiagnosed low IQ or has some form of other undiagnosed neurodivergence? I know multiple people who are attractive and play sports but who have very low IQ & other processing issues which makes navigating the everyday life they appear they should be able to do very difficult. It's hidden just like so many physical disabilities. The whole needing people to take tests for him to get jobs then failing really sounds to me like an IQ issue and is nothing to be ashamed about but which was made into a shaming thing. From what you describe it seems as if mom went from doing his schoolwork to hide it to having others fake for him as an adult and that's really a terrible thing. Constantly being set up for failure would trigger unbelievable depression, its like every day of his life this person was being informed the best isn't good enough but look even the kids around you are better than you so they take the test and then you faily very publicly and are shamed very publicly. Now that mom is aging out she expects other family members to keep the charade going, whole thing sounds tragic. It makes sense your DH would be very resentful but that does not belong in your lap.

I'm in my 50's too and back in the 70s people were fine or institutionalized. I knew someone whose child had low IQ but was refused help because she was pretty, played sports and could ride a bike. Eventually the person got support and was steered into receptionist type jobs where they could succeed but dealing with school was a terrible process and the parents fought every step of the way, I imagine a parent who wanted to ignore it would have been easily accommodated.

 

[VandVsmama]

You all need to stop trying to save him from himself. It's all about BIL all of the time.

You need to start saying no. In order to protect yourself & your DH. And in order to open up some future treatment options for your BIL.

Something to keep in mind:
Sometimes when there's an adult with SMI (severe mental illness), social workers & other mental health professionals will try to heavily encourage the SMI adult's extended family to take the person in. DO NOT DO THIS. Establish ahead of time what your & DH's firm boundaries are. Be prepared to reinforce those boundaries often.

Also, be prepared for Flying Monkeys (you know, like from the Wizard of Oz) who passive aggressively will try to convince you to let BIL get away with his behavior. Those people do NOT have your best interests at heart. The people who approach you like that are trying to get you to continue to not rock the boat.

So get out of the boat. Move to a boat with just you & your DH in it. That boat sails on calm, smooth waters. Meanwhile, everybody else in the extended family are frantically trying to steady the boat that your BIL keeps trying to tip over.

Whatever your BIL's diagnoses are, one thing's for sure: If he has an SMI (severe mental illness), it's a CHRONIC illness. It's not something that will ever really go away. He will have good days and bad days. It's not much different from somebody who has a different type of chronic illness...Type 2 diabetes, for example, or lupus, chronic fatigue syndrome, etc., etc.

So you & your extended family need to realize and figure out how to accept that, at 50+ years old, this is how your BIL is, this is how he always will be, and he is never going to change. The family 'system' clearly has been one of "If we just help him with this 1 extra thing, maybe it'll be different."

Taking job entrance exams for him is NOT HELPING HIM.
Cleaning up his messes for him is NOT HELPING HIM.
Picking up the pieces of his life for him is NOT HELPING HIM.

It is OK to want you & your DH to be happy, and to not have your sense of contentedness/happiness always be tied to how decompensated or not your BIL is.

 

[VandVsmama]

Another thought:

I bet you $$$ that BIL has ALWAYS been like this. And maybe this behavior started way back in early adulthood (age range 18-24). Your DH has probably been "the responsible one," so your MIL didn't really have to worry as much/focus as much on him, so she channeled all of her attention and efforts on the challenging BIL.

Everybody needs to stop trying to fix all of BIL's problems for him.

Out of curiosity, does your BIL have kids? If yes, what's their level of involvement in all this?

Everybody should also recognize that perhaps BIL is also self-medicating. People who are SMI often do.

It doesn't matter anymore if he used to be an accountant. That's not a job he can handle anymore. He's probably lucky if he can handle a job at McDonald's. Besides, knowing what you do of his behavior, would you want somebody like him handling your food?

 

[Snowflakey]

Most of the comments have been about your BIL or MIL. I'm going to comment on your husband. He takes on what he feels he must but he CANNOT take out his frustrations on you. He cannot make his problems (caused by HIS decisions) be your problems. Couple counseling might be in order or mental health counseling to help him break away from this dynamic. If he won't go to counseling, make plans for a place to stay, set aside some cash and if he unloads on you, walk out the door. Be gone for a few days or a week. Don't answer the phone. When YOU feel better, return but make it clear what you will and will not tolerate.

Oh my goodness is this drastic! The poor DH is frustrated and unloading on his one trusted, loyal and loved person....his wife. I don't agree with this at all. Yes, you should let DH know once the dust has settled that how he unloaded was harsh/hurtful whatever it was (if it was anything that warranted you to say something) but if he is just having a meltdown and yelling it all out by no means does that mean you should walk out for days or a week! Never read something so crazy.

Unless your DH was being violent or accusing you that is different, but I don't take it as that is what is happening here.

 

[ronandannette]

Such a very sad situation. Sounds like major depression to me which can possibly be a full on disability. Since it doesn't sound like your brother would be inclined to fight this because of a pride issue I'd suggest DH having a frank discussion with his mother and brother about seeing a SSDI attorney and starting the process so he will always have some sort of housing and basic income with medical insurance.

Serious depression often looks like simple laziness but anyone around it long enough would see it is a debilitating illness that is lethal in more ways than one, it is not bad parenting and the person can't just snap out of it. Medications do not always work and untreated depression can lead to very serious consequences. I have a family member who refused treatment who ended up with vascular dementia, as I understand it depression and, in particular, resistant depression doubles the risk of dementia. I would get out in front of it as best as you can while the mother is alive to reason and counsel her son and head off catastrophic consequences. Try to make the mom understand that no matter how much your DH promises or tries there is no guarantee her unwell son will listen to or respond to your DH once she is gone as the illness progresses. If MIL really wants to make sure her son will be ok start the process and se a SSDI attorney, it takes years and is best started early. It sometimes takes years then a few rejections first, do not wait until it's in your face because it sounds like BIL will be incapable of doing this on his own.

These situations are always heartbreaking. Sad your DH is so upset, I'm sure he is angry this is hurting his mom and he can't intervene

There is another diagnosis that presents with the extremely frustrating symptoms of lack of motivation and an inability to initiate even the most basic and logical actions: schizoaffective disorder. It is not the same as schizophrenia (thank God) but is considered in most cases to be pervasive and irremediably. It is confusing and heartbreaking for family and supporters because in many ways the sufferer is “perfectly normal” and casual observers would really never identify the affliction, just judge the sufferer as being shiftless, lazy and exploitative. We are learning this the hard way with a close loved one of our own. Coming to acceptance about what the person can, or literally cannot do, is a difficult journey, even on the part of the sufferer themself, which often results in resistance to accepting treatment modalities and adopting coping strategies.

 

[cabanafrau]

I get you-been there only it was my brother. it was a nightmare. it got to the point where mom needed to go into assisted living and when her house was being sold he suddenly became entirely capable of researching housing laws and then getting himself free legal aide to argue his 'rights' to continue to live in the house b/c of some supposed unwritten agreement between him/mom where he had exchanged caregiver (of her) duties in exchange for lifetime free residency . we got that cleared up and they lived apart for a short time until he coerced his way into her assisted living apartment (management did'nt care/would'nt do anything b/c he always stayed out of the public areas and they got their rent from mom each month )
it got worse after that b/c as she aged and it became apparant that she was headed for nursing care he knew his time in her housing was short so he convinced her to change all her paperwork to name him for making decisions/access to financials. I think the only thing that kept him from delaying more the moving of her to the care she needed and emptying the bank accounts was my getting adult protective services involved so he knew he was being monitored.

we (me/dh/my sibling) knew my brother was capable, if we had thought otherwise we would have made an adult protective services referral on HIM and let a public guardian step in (b/c mom was not capable of caring for him nor would he have been of her). it was grating, frustrating and infuriating to see their crazy co-dependancy for so many decades/have to listen to mom's complaints/constant concerns for his future 'care'. after mom's death there was of course a huge temper tantrum (involving law enforcement) on his part b/c his siblings would not enable him which created a permanant estrangement but for the remainder of his life he seemingly discovered the skills to successfully live independantly.

all I can suggest is try to create some boundaries and perhaps your dh can engage his other siblings to create some kind of plan of action for when the time comes that mom is no longer able to live in her home (and if there is any talk of bil's share-if there's any-of mil's estate going into a trust your dh needs to RUN, DO NOT WALK away from being the trustee).

I relate to much of what you've experienced and outlined X2. DH and I both have brothers who've never "launched" and things have been getting increasingly challenging as our parents aged and their health is failing.

I'm currently wrestling with the challenge of my own mother having moved into assisted living a year and a half ago after becoming immobile, which is decimating her finances -- while she hangs onto her home so my brother can live in it rent and bill-free because he has never held jobs steadily and has managed to rack up eye-popping amounts of credit card debts. I've talked myself blue in the face trying to convince her she must at least sell her cottage, which has fallen into extreme disrepair over the past 15 years and never used, but she stonewalls it because "it's your brother's inheritance". We're getting incredibly close to the time her liquid assets will run out, yet he's quit two jobs in the past year with mom's blessing and encouragement because "they treat their workers horribly, everyone was quitting". I've tried explaining that her choices may mean she's put out of her spot in assisted living with her completely unable to care for herself whatsoever and may quickly mean the loss of the cottage and the house as well. She's furious with me and our relationship will never recover.

DH's brother has made it his mission to be "retired" since his twenties, deliberately choosing a field of work with job prospects that are scant in the best of times and out of his reach for nearly 40 years now. He had no qualms about saying he was choosing his college major because he would almost certainly never land a job and therefore be allowed to spend his time pursuing his hobbies because they overlap with FIL's and FIL was happy to have a built-in companion. FIL now in 90s, MIL has extreme dementia with aggressive outbursts and FIL and BIL insist they are keeping her at home. Their insistence is predicated on not wanting to spend a dime for care in a facility because the goal is keeping their estate intact because it will be all BIL will have to live on after they're gone. BIL also practices weaponized incompetence to avoid housework, yardwork, laundry and cooking. He flat-out told our daughters that he sees them as his support in his "golden years", despite criticizing the fact that they are unable to duck out of work to "help their grandparents" at his whims, which he says shows how they are just obsessed with $$. We provide quite a few meals, but have drawn the line at being pulled into taking more than minimal shifts sitting with MIL because they are hopeful we will fully step-in, leaving them the ability to spend the bulk of their time up north away from the responsibilities.

OP, good luck with your situation. I strongly urge you to hold your ground and keep holding up a crystal clear mirror of rational truth in front of your DH until he comes to grips with reality. My mother continues to rail at me, insisting that I accept my brother's toxic treatment of me and promise to see to it that he is provided for when she's gone. Uh, no, not happening. Even this weekend when I had to upend everything I had going on in order to sit in the ER with her for hours while my brother was too drunk to drive or be there she was stressed that he must be so worried about her and I somehow managed to be the child she's displeased with for not promising to check in on him when I finally left the hospital -- and could I maybe pick up a few groceries and maybe make him something if he hadn't eaten because it was so hard on him to sit home worrying? Uh, no.

 

[Kathryn Merteuil]

Another thought:

I bet you $$$ that BIL has ALWAYS been like this. And maybe this behavior started way back in early adulthood (age range 18-24). Your DH has probably been "the responsible one," so your MIL didn't really have to worry as much/focus as much on him, so she channeled all of her attention and efforts on the challenging BIL.

Everybody needs to stop trying to fix all of BIL's problems for him.

Out of curiosity, does your BIL have kids? If yes, what's their level of involvement in all this?

Everybody should also recognize that perhaps BIL is also self-medicating. People who are SMI often do.

It doesn't matter anymore if he used to be an accountant. That's not a job he can handle anymore. He's probably lucky if he can handle a job at McDonald's. Besides, knowing what you do of his behavior, would you want somebody like him handling your food?

To answer the question... No he does NOT have children. Even before this downward spiral became obvious, we really didn't trust him to care for the dog. The ONE time he was left in charge of the dog, he took her for a walk, and somehow she had ended up in lake where they were walking. It's not that he means to do bad things, he is just that irresponsible.

 

[NotUrsula]

One thing I question with all this accidental breakage is whether or not his vision is being properly monitored. It sounds like he has serious depth perception issues that could be causing a lot of this; even, to some extent, the toilet debacle. If he hasn''t had his eyesight tested in a while, insist on it.

 

[Kathryn Merteuil]

One thing I question with all this accidental breakage is whether or not his vision is being properly monitored. It sounds like he has serious depth perception issues that could be causing a lot of this; even, to some extent, the toilet debacle. If he hasn''t had his eyesight tested in a while, insist on it.

That's a fair question. I know he used to have glasses, but he is no longer using them. I have no idea why he quit using them. I just always assumed these things happened because he wasn't paying attention to what he was doing, but yea it would not surprise me if there is something going on w/his vision.

 

[Pollies]

Sorry please about your situation. Setting boundaries is key—you and DH can offer support, but not at the cost of your well-being. If you’re feeling overwhelmed, focusing on self-care is important. Speaking of balance, if you're considering health improvements, to Buy Mounjaro Online can be a key, which could be worth exploring. Managing personal challenges while maintaining your own stability is crucial, so finding practical solutions—whether for family stress or health—can help.

 

[Kathryn Merteuil]

Well, this weekend did not go as planned that’s for sure. DH had a complete meltdown today. It was triggered by his mother asking us to “bring extra shoes” for after church. She wanted the sticks picked up that had fallen in the yard. Yea, today in the 40 degree weather with drizzle off and on. I guess I didn’t help by saying, “it’s not like your brother has anything to do when it’s warmer in a few days since he sits on the couch all day, lives there rent free and does NOTHING all day, let him do it then”. He just says “thank you” then texted his mom that we would NOT be doing that. (I assume he blamed it on me, but that’s ok, the idea of freezing and being wet was just not something I wanted to do today.

Then he started in on how he was dissatisfied with his career and is going to look for a new one. How the thought of going to work tomorrow makes him sick. He proceeds to make the comment how he just wishes his life would end because he is so sick of everything.

I guess it’s not about me, but do you have any idea how that makes me feel when your DH says stuff like that? It makes me feel like I am not adequate. I find myself walking on eggshells a lot trying not to set him off.

Today my mouth overrode my brain and WOW that was just not smart making a comment like I did. At the same time though, I think her request was completely ridiculous.

 

[Travel60]

You are doing a lot of self-blame. Your comment was NOT out of line. The fact that you had to tell your DH that you (both) would not be spending your time doing yard work that brother could do suggests that he has enabled the brother's actions.

Just say "no". Again and again.

And, not a counselor here, but I think DH needs counseling. You are not responsible for him but if you frame it out of love and concern, maybe he will listen. If not, plan your escape. Break the cycle.