MDE & FP+ are NOT failures

[lugnut33]

Maybe some of you smarter investment type people can answer me a question. Let's say FP+ wasn't going that well, would management ever own up to it in an investor conference call or a quarterly report? Would they ever come out and say, "well customer feedback has been lukewarm so far"?

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if FP+ is getting good marks from people who don't go to WDW often or have a touring style that fits FP+. And that might be the majority of the people going.

 

[JZCubed]

It absolutely does matter who publishes an article, but even more so Variety doesn't offer any analysis of what was sent to them in the press release or said in the broadcast -- re-read and you'll see it says "Iger said" and "Disney posted" throughout. Variety may have the experts on staff to explain why a movie bombed but this article doesn't analyse any of the numbers that were presented by Disney themselves. A few analysts are now putting out articles, but I've seen none that commented on the figures from the parks division. Most are keeping it as a buy based on the story at the studios -- a division that is no longer seen as a complete failure.

I am a trader by vocation and have a badge to the Trading Floor you see on TV. I selected the article from Variety because it was the first to come up on my screen after an on-line search. Regardless, numbers are numbers and quotes from the CEO are still quotes from the CEO. Further, the NYTimes and WSJournal have very different points of view. You are effectively suggesting that the reporting of financial results are somehow different in the financial pages of diametrically opposing viewpoints. I do not believe this to be true - reporting facts are reporting facts. Therefore, I cannot agree with your understanding that reporting on financial results are somehow vastly different depending on the publisher.

You might prefer a point of view from analysts, but this has nothing to do with reporting financial results.

I too was hopeful that FP+ would be great (I do like change, in marketing terms I'm what they call an "early adopter") but I'm really really disappointed in how this has been implemented and in how much they have spent on the NextGen project. Nobody is perfect, no company is perfect and I don't understand at all why Dis members have to defend Disney so strongly that they totally disregard logical statements by other members.

I never suggested FP+ was perfect. But I find FP+ to be superior to FP-. And I will add, the most vocal of the naysayers are likely people who visit Disney so frequently that they are spending less $$ on subsequent visits than people who vacation less frequently at Disney. FP+ was certainly designed to cater to the less frequent visitor and/or people who are less willing or able to arrive at rope drop.

Of course, there are plenty of naysayers who simply are uncomfortable with having to plan vacation details so far in advance. The only way to address the needs of these families is to eliminate FP (+ or -) all together. Disney has determined that losing revenue from these people will be offset by people who are ready, willing, and able to plan well in advance.

No matter how you spin it, letting 3k more people into the parks over Christmas was not an amazing feat. And turning people off the DDP by having no available seats in the TS restaurants is not something worthy of applause. It ticks off the customer and means more people eat their expensive meals offsite.

Your logic is lost on me. Sold out restaurants hurt late comers. And I have read very little (nothing actually) from folks staying on-site who have been forced to eat off-site because reservations were unobtainable.

Disney doesn't need cheerleaders. We give them our money in return for services. We don't owe them anything and everyone has the right to objectively criticize any aspect of their business. If you can't concede that they can do something wrong then you aren't really reading any of the posts in this thread. You want to build a better wdw? Listen to other guests, consider whether their complaints can be remedied and implement changes to provide better services to more people at a price which will continue this trend into the future.

You've not read my review of CA Grill.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3195246

 

[Minnesota!]

Basing success or failure on a earnings report during implementation is misguided.

I personally was there in November. Didn't like FP. They obviously got money from me in November. Friends went in December, said it would be a LONG time until they went again...and it was fp related.

The true earnings statements will be down the line when Disney realizes if they are getting the same repeat customers. The people going now already had their plans in place.

It i not just disboards that are upset, the fb page is being hit hard. Yes people are more likely to post bad experiences. But Disney always had lots of sunshine, rainbows and unicorns coming out of its posters...there has been a negative swing.

the are being very clear by saying mymagic allowed 3000 more in the parks. they are packing people in and shifting their position in the park instead of making improvements. there are countless reports of longer lines at low level attraction. i can see disney happy about this but fail to see why any fan would be happy about this. if this pleases you, please tell me why.

If you love FP great. That does not make those who can see a diminished product with supposedly improved technology Luddite's.

This is my sentiment. The people who affected the results last quarter, already had their trips booked, were able to double/triple dip, etc. The real results of this on the bottom line will come in the coming quarters. People who try it out and either love it and spread the word, or those who hate it, and spread the word. Whichever is the majority, will be the way that the results swing.

I have said it a million times on these boards, I love the concept...HATE the execution. I have been to WDW many, many, many times...from Minnesota. It's not cheap, but I have always said it is worth the money we pay. I said the same to anyone who would listen. I thought the value of WDW far exceeded the actual cost.

Then last August happened, and now, my tune has changed. We were given free park admission after a particularly infuriating interaction, and we are utilizing it in a month - I need to escape the cold and snow, and we are willing to give FP+ another shot, in it's present state. But, I have opened my mouth and let anyone who would listen know that as of now, I am not quite a WDW cheerleader anymore. I will say, multiple families have decided to not book. In the scheme of things - no big deal to WDW...probably only $20K or so lost on the people I have told. But for everyone who feels the same way I do, and spreads the same word...it might just hurt.

FTR - I am going into this next trip with an open mind and am fully prepared to put my cheerleading uniform back on should FP+ wow me this time around (and the Customer Service, etc...which was a HUGE source of issues last time around).

 

[JZCubed]

I would say that most DisneyWorld vacationers have no clue about FP+ and couldn't care less either way. As people are constantly being referred to me for Disney planning help (as I'm sure we all do,) nobody yet has a single clue about FP+.

The way Disney is requiring Magic Bands to on-site guests, I find it hard to imagine that first time guests are not aware of FP+ before they arrive.

The same was not true of FP-.

And I'll add, some of the marketing is ridiculous and overkill. Thus far, every future visit comes with new MB's and pre-trip planning packages. Not knowing about FP+ prior to arrival means a family has ignored multiple contacts from Disney.

 

[JZCubed]

It's not overkill at all, maybe I'm not like most people and when i drop 3-4 thousands of dollars and a week of my vacation it is a big deal to me.

Not only is it an investment of my money, but its an investment of my time away from work which I don't get much of. When things change so much that it could take away from my vacation experience, then yes it does upset me.

I'm also nervous about taking my in-laws for their first trip in over 30 years, I have a feeling with the way things are this will be their very last trip. Even with grandkids that are hitting the perfect age for disney.....

I'm nervous that my vacation will be spent running from FP+ attraction to my ADRs and not having time between those reservations to do anything else.

It may be overkill to you, but to me its not.

I honestly do not understand your logic about running around.

Is it somehow better to run for a FP- to ride an attraction hours later or have a FP+ reservation for a particular time?

And if you and your in-laws want to enjoy an 'E-ticket' attraction, FP+ means not having to be at rope drop for a return time that was undetermined with FP-.

We typically travel with 4 grandparents. They no longer need to grab a FP-, because we have made the plans in advance. Grandpa no longer needs to get out of bed by 8am to swipe his ticket to get a FP- for a, lets say, 4pm return time. More importantly, Grandpa can now enjoy his round of golf and join the rest of us in the Park when the FP+ is scheduled....and he knows the time of the FP+ in advance.

Most people will have ADR's long before the window of opportunity to schedule FP+. So again, knowing in advance about your ADR would mean less running around if you subsequently schedule a FP+.

With respect to time between attractions and ADR's - once again I'm at a loss. I do understand how FP+ disrupts time management between attractions. Frankly, my family has found the reverse to be true.

For instance, we often stay on Boardwalk which allows for entering EPCOT closer to Soarin'. Regardless, we have, more than once, seen that Soarin' FP- return time was hours away, that we found ourselves making our way to get Test Track FP- with earlier return time. Effectively, my in-laws had to make their way to the other side of EPCOT to enjoy the one reasonable FP- that we could obtain for either of the two 'E-ticket' attractions in EPCOT. FP+ means we can start at Soarin' and make our way through EPCOT at our own pace.

 

[NickyKnack]

I went to Disney 1 before Fp- was put in place. It took me years to bother going back because of those lines. But the chance came up to go at a less busy time of year so I decided to give it a shot. With FP there were no lines at the time of year we went and I fell in love.
So to answer your question? No, I didn't stand in line, if the lines had looked on our second trip like they had on our first - we would have written DW off permanently.

I could avoid those long SB lines with FP-, and I could avoid twice as many of them while I was at it. And it wasn't driving the sb lines at rides that never had them before up. So let's see FP+ grants me half the fast passes, and twice the SB line at non headliners... how is that a win for me?

Some FP may be better then none, but front of the line passes at Universal is better then 3 Fp at Disney.

What I want to know is what people did before any kind of FP?? Did they not stand in line like everyone did in the SB??

I liked the FP+, so I didn't have to wait in line in the SB and wait an hour for a 2 minute ride.

I just remember being a kid and going to Disneyland and there were no fastpasses and waiting in the SB line for a good chunk of time, which no complaints....some FP are better then none!

 

[JRawkSteady]

Having 3,000 more guests at MK is not a success in my eyes! To me that means more people competing for the same rides. No wonder previously easy-to-experience rides now have a line and even FPs!

 

[NickyKnack]

This headline is like saying the Titanic wasn't a failure because the ship was packed.

 

[JZCubed]

This headline is like saying the Titanic wasn't a failure because the ship was packed.

More apropos, "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded." -- Yogi Berra

 

[Luscien]

One point of clarification about Iger's statements.

At roughly 25 minutes into the call, when answering a question, Iger stated:

"I can't quantify it from a financial perspective yet. It's still early and we are still rolling out facets of it. What I can say is, that what has been rolled out has been a real success both, for the guest and for us. To give you, for instance, our Parks people in Walt Disney World believe during the peak holiday season that we were able to accommodate about 3,000 more additional guests in the Magic Kingdom per day. Thanks to Magic+."

Key words used here:

Believe
Accommodate
Magic+

Believe: So, that 3000 isn't a hard number, because he uses the word 'believe'. Probably means they have some numbers which they lead them to believe but cannot directly show causation.

Accommodate: this is a vague word. Accommodate how? Allow in the park, make a dining reservation, make FP+ selections. Iger doesn't say which facet of MM+ they attribute this to, or clarify what he means by accommodate.

Magic+: he's frames what he's talking about beyond just the FP+ system. So we can't really know which parts of MM+ they are attributing the 3000 number to.

More reinforcement about the lack of direct attribution from Iger in another response later in the call. Iger stated:

"We do know, as I said, talking to George Kalogridis who runs Walt Disney World, [said] this morning that he really believes that he was able to accommodate 3,000 more people a day in the busiest period of the year in the Magic Kingdom, which is our number one park. That obviously has bottom line value, but we can't tell you what that is."

Again using believe and accommodate.

We don't know what they are counting, could be multiple things.

As has also been said before, they have an upper limit on number if guests allowed in the park. I doubt they could convince the fire marshall to change that upper limit based on MM+.

So the whole thing about getting more people into the park may or may not be true.

Now I'm gonna say the same thing I've said in other threads.

I like MM+ and the FP+ system. I thought the old FP system was fine as well but the new system works better for me. I think they can improve the system and I think they will over time. I know others don't like it, and that's fine, that's their right. If you don't like it, vote with your feet.
R

 

[JZCubed]

Look, I'll deal with the FP+ and will complain about it because it took tangible benefits away from my family. Things change and I just have to suck it up, but I don't have to be over the top happy about it.

That said, what Iger said disturbs me even more. So, they are looking to increase park capacity by not increasing ride capacity. I see a disconnect there. The parks are already over the top crowded unless it's one of the rare slow times of the year.

Of ride capacity or enlarged crowds, one had to go first.

Clearly, enlarged crowds occurred first.

Of course, MKingdom was just expanded.

Avatar Land & mentioned nighttime event will make AKingdom a longer day Park.

We can only hope that rumored Hollywood Studio plans in the Backlot Tour vicinity also move ahead.

And we can further hope that something is done to give EPCOT a fresh appeal.

Beyond that, expecting Parks to be crowd level-1 for a typical vacationer is simply unrealistic.

 

[Fsudisney]

Very well said!

I was thinking the exact same thing about packing an extra 3,000 people into already overcrowded parks. Ummm...yay?? This is a "success" to the visitor how?

I think Disney is seriously underestimating the "word of mouth" effect. When hoards of previously fanatical Disney lovers stop cheerleading for Disney and instead start griping about overcrowding/long lines/ FP+/ etc., the seemingly endless stream of once-in-a-life timers and shiny-eyed newbies will eventually dry up. Those loyal, repeat cheerleaders were the ones helping to create the demand for the "I'm finally going to Disneyworld!" type visitors.

It obviously didn't happen last year (most trips were planned long before this debacle was truly underway), it may not happen this year or even next year. But it will eventually happen if things continue down this path. A company can only rely on past goodwill for so long before that is simply not enough.

I have been a *huge* Disney cheerleader for years now. I can't count how many friends and family members I have personally convinced to go to Disney by my rave reviews and glowing post-trip feedback.

Recently? Well, lets just say that I no longer feel confident recommending Disney to anyone right now. In the past few months, the four families that I attempted to help/re-adjust plans that had been previously booked, came home with mostly negative experiences. From the technology "glitches" that they experienced, to the excessive amount of "annoying" (their word) preplanning, to the rude and overwhelmed CMs, to the long lines...not one single family I know who has traveled there in the last several months has any desire to return.

In fact, my co-worker who was there last week was stunned at how crowded the parks were on a week of mainly 3-4 crowd level predictions. She had a horrible experience at DHS, and was upset that she consistently had to wait in 50-90 minute lines in MK. In fact, she ended up only spending 2 of her four days at Disney and spent the other 2 at US. When she returned to the office, she single-handedly convinced another co-worker who had been considering an upcoming Disney trip to skip Disney altogether and head elsewhere.

I understand that my personal experiences are anecdotal; however, they aren't happening in a vacuum. As PP said, check out the Disney Facebook page reviews or look at other avid Disney fan sites...people are unhappy/upset right now. This isn't one or two people griping about a random bad trip; this is numerous, numerous people all complaining about one general problem (the thing that Disney happened to dump a huge amount of money into).

This report speaks of anything but "success" to me. If Disney's intent is to keep cramming as many people as they can into the parks using the premise of MM+ (without adding capacity), then in my personal view of success, the future looks very bleak indeed.

Wonderful post! Is completely agree!

 

[JZCubed]

Maybe some of you smarter investment type people can answer me a question. Let's say FP+ wasn't going that well, would management ever own up to it in an investor conference call or a quarterly report? Would they ever come out and say, "well customer feedback has been lukewarm so far"?

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if FP+ is getting good marks from people who don't go to WDW often or have a touring style that fits FP+. And that might be the majority of the people going.

Disney announced write-down from Lone Ranger a month after release.

The new technology will pay for itself. The questions for investors would be how soon and did it have cost overruns.

We go twice a year for 8-9 days. I continue to be of the mind that less frequent visitors, like myself, will prefer FP+ over FP-. Knowing I have a specif return time is preferred to the uncertainty of FP-. Moreover, scheduling some FP+ for later in the day allows for many families to spend their mornings doing something other than Park time.

 

[ChipnDale79]

I honestly do not understand your logic about running around.

Is it somehow better to run for a FP- to ride an attraction hours later or have a FP+ reservation for a particular time?

It's pretty simple, say previously if you rode Space Mountain and wanted to ride Big Thunder, you could get off of SM make your way towards Big Thunder, along the way you can ride other rides and do shopping as you please. Once you make it to Big Thunder you can grab your fast pass and then go stand in line to ride Splash, usually once youre done with Splash, you're within your time window to ride Big Thunder.

The new system says you have to be at SM at 9:15, and then let's say you've got to be at Big Thunder at 11:15. Sure thats 2 hours, but by the time you get off of Space Mountain its now 9:45 and you can no longer can you take your time getting over to Big Thunder and riding other attractions along the way. The other attractions now have longer lines because of FP+, so that hour to hour and a half window you have, well now you can only ride 1 ride instead of 2, 3 or maybe even 4 rides.

You may like it, but I don't. We used to get more than 3 FPs in a day and were able to do just about anything we wanted to. Now they've limited us to 3 FPs in one day, oh and they must be used in one park.

Nevermind going to MK in the morning and spending a good portion of time there, then popping over to Epcot in the evening and grabbing a fast pass for Test Track or Soarin before you dinner in World Showcase for use after dinner, that option is now completely gone. But I know, I'm supposed to shut my mouth and not complain, instead of riding those rides in Epcot I should just go spend more money in World Showcase....

 

[kassonvike]

This is a leap, but I wonder if 'accomodate 3000 more guests' might mean that 3000 more distinct guests took advantage of fast pass system than before. I could see that being the case and I could see that being word smithed into the quote. People can only use 3 and you cannot duplicate on a single ride so there is definitely opportunity for more people to receive fast passes.

 

[JZCubed]

It's pretty simple, say previously if you rode Space Mountain and wanted to ride Big Thunder, you could get off of SM make your way towards Big Thunder, along the way you can ride other rides and do shopping as you please. Once you make it to Big Thunder you can grab your fast pass and then go stand in line to ride Splash, usually once youre done with Splash, you're within your time window to ride Big Thunder.

The new system says you have to be at SM at 9:15, and then let's say you've got to be at Big Thunder at 11:15. Sure thats 2 hours, but by the time you get off of Space Mountain its now 9:45 and you can no longer can you take your time getting over to Big Thunder and riding other attractions along the way. The other attractions now have longer lines because of FP+, so that hour to hour and a half window you have, well now you can only ride 1 ride instead of 2, 3 or maybe even 4 rides.

You may like it, but I don't. We used to get more than 3 FPs in a day and were able to do just about anything we wanted to. Now they've limited us to 3 FPs in one day, oh and they must be used in one park.

Nevermind going to MK in the morning and spending a good portion of time there, then popping over to Epcot in the evening and grabbing a fast pass for Test Track or Soarin before you dinner in World Showcase for use after dinner, that option is now completely gone. But I know, I'm supposed to shut my mouth and not complain, instead of riding those rides in Epcot I should just go spend more money in World Showcase....

You are willing to stroll over to BTMRR to grab a FP- after SM, and take your chances with return times after also waiting on stand-by for Splash Mountain.

For the life of me, I have no idea how this is better than having a FP+ for SM and a FP+ for either or both Splash Mountain and BTMRR at times that you select.

Have you ever been able to go to EPCOT in the evening and get a FP- for TT or Soarin'?

If so, how did you know before getting to EPCOT that the return time would be for after your ADR?

You have every right to complain. I just cannot wrap my head around your logic. Sorry.

 

[going/again]

I would say that most DisneyWorld vacationers have no clue about FP+ and couldn't care less either way. As people are constantly being referred to me for Disney planning help (as I'm sure we all do,) nobody yet has a single clue about FP+.



The only APs who "hate" the FP+/MM+ experience are those who haven't stayed onsite and received their Magic Bands yet. Otherwise, there's no reason to dislike.

Wrong we own DVC stayed onsite for XMAS and NY and we absolutely hate FP+.

 

[ChipnDale79]

You are willing to stroll over to BTMRR to grab a FP- after SM, and take your chances with return times after also waiting on stand-by for Splash Mountain.

For the life of me, I have no idea how this is better than having a FP+ for SM and a FP+ for either or both Splash Mountain and BTMRR at times that you select.

Have you ever been able to go to EPCOT in the evening and get a FP- for TT or Soarin'?

If so, how did you know before getting to EPCOT that the return time would be for after your ADR?

You have every right to complain. I just cannot wrap my head around your logic. Sorry.

So you've never been to WDW when you can walk up to Big Thunder, grab a fast pass that's only an hour or two away? I can't tell you how many times I've done that.

It doesnt have to be planned down to the minute. This rigidty of planning a vacation down to the minute will actually take away a lot of magic for many of us.

I've been to WDW at all different times of the year, I don't have school age children, so we can go at any time. At some points in the year, you can most certainly take a chance of grabbing a fast pass for TT or Soarin that will be after your ADR.

That's an option that's taken away.

You and I apparently have different "touring plans". The problem is, people who have the same type of touring plan as I do, can't do that anymore.

If this doesnt effect how you tour disney, of course you aren't going to have a problem with it......

I'm not asking you to "wrap your head around it", if FP+ doesnt negatively effect you, then you'll never be able to "wrap your head around it".

 

[Luscien]

So you've never been to WDW when you can walk up to Big Thunder, grab a fast pass that's only an hour or two away? I can't tell you how many times I've done that.

It doesnt have to be planned down to the minute. This rigidty of planning a vacation down to the minute will actually take away a lot of magic for many of us.

I've been to WDW at all different times of the year, I don't have school age children, so we can go at any time. At some points in the year, you can most certainly take a chance of grabbing a fast pass for TT or Soarin that will be after your ADR.

That's an option that's taken away.

You and I apparently have different "touring plans". The problem is, people who have the same type of touring plan as I do, can't do that anymore.

If this doesnt effect how you tour disney, of course you aren't going to have a problem with it......

I'm not asking you to "wrap your head around it", if FP+ doesnt negatively effect you, then you'll never be able to "wrap your head around it".

In my experience, we were able to build a frame, much like what you described in your other post, using FP+. And it was during the week of Christmas to New years.

Not saying you're wrong, but trying to give you hope that what you described can still happen. We still had a good deal of spontaneity with FP+. YMMV.

 

[going/again]

Of course, MKingdom was just expanded.

How exactly has it been made larger please explain.