Maui

[hrhdhd]

Not making fun at all. People can believe what they want to believe. The Bible isn't a big part of most of the world's people. They believe other things. A belief is different than science. Do you disagree with that?

I disagree that "science" is unquestionable. "Science" is done by scientists--human beings with attitudes and opinions. It's also funded by people and organizations with agendas. Scientists have no claim to being morally superior to others.

This article has a link to Michael Crichton's "Aliens Cause Global Warming" speech and also an excerpt about how "science" has nothing to do with consensus.

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/mich...-there-is-no-such-thing-as-consensus-science/

 

[gmi3804]

I disagree that "science" is unquestionable. "Science" is done by scientists--human beings with attitudes and opinions. It's also funded by people and organizations with agendas. Scientists have no claim to being morally superior to others.

This article has a link to Michael Crichton's "Aliens Cause Global Warming" speech and also an excerpt about how "science" has nothing to do with consensus.

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/mich...-there-is-no-such-thing-as-consensus-science/

* ignore *

 

[DCLMP]

how can anyone keep a straight face trying to negate billions of years of observed and measurable scientific trends while quoting "The Bible" - a work of fiction - as fact

View attachment 786268

I think calling the a Bible a work of fiction is pretty insulting to millions of people. I was just pointing out that both theory’s end up with the same outcome. You’ve pretty much proven my point that climate change is a religion for many of you.

 

[DCLMP]

So because someone that was of some intelligence a "long long time ago" was able to see how humans can destroy stuff, it has something to do with religion.? How does being written in the bible (a book in the fiction section) make it not human interference.?
What part of prediction makes it not something we caused.?

Isn't that the subject of the argument against climate change, is that it isn't caused by humans.?? (or is it that its not caused, but accelerated)


Also, someone wrote the script for the movie Idiocracy, & it is has some serious coincidences too.

You have the climate zealots and the Revaltionists. I don’t see much difference between the two. They’re both extremism’s. I’ve been hearing the world is going to end my whole life yet it keeps spinning.

 

[Neapolitan Ice Cream]

how can anyone keep a straight face trying to negate billions of years of observed and measurable scientific trends while quoting "The Bible" - a work of fiction - as fact

View attachment 786268

That's rather insulting to billions of people. Besides, we KNOW that Jesus was a historical figure who performed all sorts of what we may call miracles. What you make of that is your own business.

 

[dvcgirl67]

If people can't see that it's getting worse, that's on them.
Wild fires do happen, but not as bad or often. Floods do happen, but not as bad or often. Record temps do happen, but not as often... also, the earth will survive, but we (as a species) wont.

Note the Hurricane coming to SoCal, sure its not the first time, but its definitely not the norm. (granted, I wouldn't be surprised if the hurricane turns into nothing, but media hype)


Side note, no one should watch CNN (or Fox), you can get better factual unbiased information on YouTube.

This hurricane/tropical storm is going to be a big problem for the area. LA hasn’t experienced a tropical storm in nearly 85 years. And that tropical storm in 1939 was the only one to hit California in the entire 20th century.

I‘m reading that areas of the southwest can expect extreme flash flooding. Some areas in the desert will receive *years* of rainfall…in one day. The mountainous areas will see mudslides.

 

[DCLMP]

I click on a thread about the fires in Maui and it's turned into an argument about the Bible.

Never change, DIS.

The climate change debate started because I used a laughing emoji on someone’s pro climate change post. Then offended through a fit. The dis echo chamber then pounced. I’ve got dozens of laughing emojis in my alerts right now. Should I through I throw a fit. .., Nah.

Just giving you some history on how it morphed from Maui to climate change.

 

[Smugpugmug]

The climate change debate started because I used a laughing emoji on someone’s pro climate change post. Then offended through a fit. The dis echo chamber then pounced. I’ve got dozens of laughing emojis in my alerts right now. Should I through I throw a fit. .., Nah.

Just giving you some history on how it morphed from Maui to climate change.

I mean, it was partially your fault too....

But I'm not getting involved. Have fun arguing about this

 

[dvcgirl67]

I click on a thread about the fires in Maui and it's turned into an argument about the Bible.

Never change, DIS.

Haha. Well, it started with a climate change debate....because there are people who don't believe in that. Those who don't believe called that a "religion" to those of us who do believe in science and facts....and it went from there.

While I do think climate change is absolutely a part of the discussion with respect to the Lahaina fire....and other posters can get away with referring to climate change as "their religion", I don't think the Mods will allow this thread to continue if we get into a real debate over religion. The mods have been letting us play harder than they normally do, but I don't think they'll allow that.

 

[mousefan73]

You can stay in your denial mode. That is your choice. The world climate is changing faster than it has to. Humans are causing it by burning fossil fuels. Natural disasters will happen more often because of climate change. Humans will alter the cycle even more, in a futile struggle. The planet will survive, but most living things will not be able to adapt to the changes at the rate they have to in order to survive. Of course that happens anyways, but humans may not like this next round of evolution.

Listen, I’m not a climate denier, but I have to agree. The cause of these fires was not climate change. It was based on the fact that acres and acres of dead grass and trees, lack of maintenance maintaining and downed power lines. Highwinds from the hurricane contributed to the spread of the fire. Hurricanes have always been happening. And yes there is an increase due to global warming over ocean waters. Climate change in my opinion is false cause if it comes to legal and insurance reasons.

 

[dvcgirl67]

Listen, I’m not a climate denier, but I have to agree. The cause of these fires was not climate change. It was based on the fact that acres and acres of dead grass and trees, lack of maintenance maintaining and downed power lines. Highwinds from the hurricane contributed to the spread of the fire. Hurricanes have always been happening. And yes there is an increase due to global warming over ocean waters. Climate change in my opinion is false cause if it comes to legal and insurance reasons.

Climate change causes higher temperatures, more intense and longer droughts and larger more intense hurricanes. All of those things played a part in the Maui fire. Hurricane Dora actually had a small wind field in this case, but set up an intense high pressure system that was the cause of the wind. The invasive grasses turn into highly flammable fuel due to higher temperatures and the decrease in rainfall that West Maui has received in recent years.....that's climate change.

The officials in Maui cited climate change almost immediately after the fire....as a contributing cause. I trust the people who actually live there and are experiencing the changes on the ground. So...is climate change a direct cause....did it spark the fire in this case? No. We've all seen the videos of downed lines sparking and fire starting. Did it contribute in making this the deadliest wildfire in U.S. history....yes it did.

As for the direct cause, the Hawaiian power company is about to find out the hard way....that it's far cheaper to maintain your equipment than it is to squeeze out every penny of profit. Their stock is trading where it did in 1985, their bonds downgraded to junk status, and they're getting ready to pay out billions and billions in settlements to the poor people of Lahaina....and the armada of attorneys positioning themselves to take their cut. That's the American Way....rinse, repeat.

 

[hrhdhd]

Hawaiian officials . . .

There's the one who has resigned for "health reasons" after admitting he didn't use the emergency siren system.

Then there's M. Kaleo Manuel, the official who refused to release water in Maui, contributing to up to 106 deaths.

Let's not forget the Hawaii Public Utilities Commission, which did not grant rate increases Hawaiian Electric requested to pay for safety upgrades to the grid.

Then you've got Hawaiian Electric; from the Wall Street Journal: "Between 2019 and 2022, it invested less than $245,000 on wildfire-specific projects on the island, regulatory filings show. . . Former regulators and energy company officials said the utility was focused at that time on procuring renewable energy. . . "

But sure. It's climate change.

 

[hrhdhd]

* ignore *

Hilarious. This response is exactly what Crichton points to as not scientific.

 

[LSUmiss]

That's rather insulting to billions of people. Besides, we KNOW that Jesus was a historical figure who performed all sorts of what we may call miracles. What you make of that is your own business.

Actually, ftr, there has been some recent debate about that too.

 

[LSUmiss]

The Bible has been around a very very long time. . Is it a coincidence? You can read it for yourself. It’s pretty straight forward and pretty much spot on to what we see happening,

Quran has been around a long time too. Greek & Roman mythology even longer, but something tells me you probably don’t think any of that is true or real, so…

 

[dvcgirl67]

Hawaiian officials . . .

There's the one who has resigned for "health reasons" after admitting he didn't use the emergency siren system.

Then there's M. Kaleo Manuel, the official who refused to release water in Maui, contributing to up to 106 deaths.

Let's not forget the Hawaii Public Utilities Commission, which did not grant rate increases Hawaiian Electric requested to pay for safety upgrades to the grid.

Then you've got Hawaiian Electric; from the Wall Street Journal: "Between 2019 and 2022, it invested less than $245,000 on wildfire-specific projects on the island, regulatory filings show. . . Former regulators and energy company officials said the utility was focused at that time on procuring renewable energy. . . "

But sure. It's climate change.

Well, the guy who resigned over health reasons for the siren system....I actually thought his response made at least a little sense. The people on Maui are apparently trained to move to higher ground when they hear those sirens....as they're primarily used to warn of tsunamis. Cell towers were out, internet out and so if they turned on the sirens, it's possible that it could have created even more panic as it's certainly possible for there to be a wildfire, and an earthquake out at sea at the same time.

The water guy...again, hindsight is 20/20. They've dealt with wildfires before and he's helped broker deals between the many water "owners" of Maui. There's been a long running war over water in Maui, getting more intense as they experience more fires and drought. The farmers want it, the golf courses and resorts want it and the municipalities want it.....and there's not enough of it.

As for the electric company, Hawaiian Electric Industries had a net profit of 241 million in 2022. You'd think it would make sense on their behalf to spend some of that profit to ensure that over one hundred people don't die....and an entire town isn't wiped off the map.

Again, climate change is a contributing factor. I'm curious, do you believe that the planet is warming....and if you do, why do you think that's happening.

 

[DCLMP]

I mean, it was partially your fault too....

But I'm not getting involved. Have fun arguing about this

I agree totally I’ll take partial blame. It’s been an entertaining discussion though. You gotta love that.

 

[QueenIsabella]

Well, the guy who resigned over health reasons for the siren system....I actually thought his response made at least a little sense. The people on Maui are apparently trained to move to higher ground when they hear those sirens....as they're primarily used to warn of tsunamis. Cell towers were out, internet out and so if they turned on the sirens, it's possible that it could have created even more panic as it's certainly possible for there to be a wildfire, and an earthquake out at sea at the same time.

The water guy...again, hindsight is 20/20. They've dealt with wildfires before and he's helped broker deals between the many water "owners" of Maui. There's been a long running war over water in Maui, getting more intense as they experience more fires and drought. The farmers want it, the golf courses and resorts want it and the municipalities want it.....and there's not enough of it.

As for the electric company, Hawaiian Electric Industries had a net profit of 241 million in 2022. You'd think it would make sense on their behalf to spend some of that profit to ensure that over one hundred people don't die....and an entire town isn't wiped off the map.

Again, climate change is a contributing factor. I'm curious, do you believe that the planet is warming....and if you do, why do you think that's happening.

Okay, I was staying out of this, but I'll bite: the earth warms and cools based on activity on the sun. Scientists know this. Man's impact is little to nothing. Want proof? Look at New England. The mountains of New Hampshire (and Vermont, and New York...) were created by glaciers melting. That means that, at some point, New England was covered with ice. OTOH, in Connecticut, there are dinosaur "remnants"--tracks, fossils, bones. THAT means that, at some point, New England was warm enough to support dinosaurs--sub-tropical or similar.

Obviously, both of these event happened eons ago. But, it shows that the earth has been warming and cooling to extremes for millions of years--and long before man ever walked upright. Only man would be arrogant enough to think that HE caused this--and worse, that HE can change/fix it.

That said, I think we should be good stewards of the earth, and be mindful about using her resources and treating her wisely. I don't think that creating global panic and spending billions of resources are the way to do it. I'm also old enough that I've been through any number of climate panic fads, from "global cooling" to "the ozone layer is disappearing" to "greenhouse gases". They are meant to create panic so people "do something!!!" It's funny how they always say "we only have 10 years to fix this before we hit the tipping point!", and then 10 years go by, and...crickets.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Okay, I was staying out of this, but I'll bite: the earth warms and cools based on activity on the sun. Scientists know this. Man's impact is little to nothing. Want proof? Look at New England. The mountains of New Hampshire (and Vermont, and New York...) were created by glaciers melting. That means that, at some point, New England was covered with ice. OTOH, in Connecticut, there are dinosaur "remnants"--tracks, fossils, bones. THAT means that, at some point, New England was warm enough to support dinosaurs--sub-tropical or similar.

Obviously, both of these event happened eons ago. But, it shows that the earth has been warming and cooling to extremes for millions of years--and long before man ever walked upright. Only man would be arrogant enough to think that HE caused this--and worse, that HE can change/fix it.

That said, I think we should be good stewards of the earth, and be mindful about using her resources and treating her wisely. I don't think that creating global panic and spending billions of resources are the way to do it. I'm also old enough that I've been through any number of climate panic fads, from "global cooling" to "the ozone layer is disappearing" to "greenhouse gases". They are meant to create panic so people "do something!!!" It's funny how they always say "we only have 10 years to fix this before we hit the tipping point!", and then 10 years go by, and...crickets.

I've been just sitting back reading all this stuff. Most of the time that I hear climate change and the like be interjected into conversations, especially more recently, is more about the acceleration and altering of events. From things like our summers being hotter and hotter than in the past or for instance in my area going 3 years without a tornado watch practically unheard of and yet it happened recently. You're not wrong about the earth's temperature fluctuating but it's not about arrogance in thinking that mankind is purely responsible for that. It's about what we are doing that is worsening, or accelerating, or degrading our environment at a pace that would be in the past much longer or things that create new changes.

The other poster's comment regarding "But sure. It's climate change." is an attempt to side step the conversation. The failures to sound out alarms, the inadequacies of a utility company could be directly responsible for loss of property and loss of life. That does not mean that the conditions related to how the wildfires started related to something else including prolonged drought and more. It really shouldn't be all or nothing. As for inaction part of that is political and thus can't be really fleshed out, part of the is funding including from countries worldwide, part of that is technology, part of that is the study of the effects of things that take time to study. When I hear we only have 10 years to fix something it's not that I think when 10 years goes by it meant the issue went away.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I listened to "The Daily" NYT podcast today, as I do every day, but today was an absolutely harrowing account by a survivor. I won't recount the details here, as it's not for the faint of heart....it includes both human and pet suffering. I just can't imagine being in this man's situation. He recently moved into a new cottage. He didn't say whether he was a renter or buyer, suspect he was a renter as he said that he was one week away from his insurance kicking in...and that he'd lost everything. So I think maybe he lost the contents of his home...which is still so terrible.

He ended up saving his neighbor's life....they escaped on his scooter. Like so many, they ended up in the ocean. His description of the wind....so hot that it was burning and blistering his skin...just so amazing how any of those folks survived. He was asked if what he saw and heard haunted his dreams, and he said...he sees and hears it....with his eyes open. The level of trauma here is off the charts.

At the time of the recording he was still in a shelter. I read another article in the NYT tonight that a lot of the hotels and AirBnB's in Ka'anapali are being put aside for the survivors for the foreseeable future. I know there are a couple of people on this thread who had trips to Maui coming up and it would seem that particular area is going to be out of commission for some time.

The survivor accounts are difficult to read and listen to. I read an article written by a woman who rode out the fire on a sailboat with her husband. The things they saw and heard gave me chills. I can’t imagine what it must have been like for the people trapped in their cars on the road.

Yes, in fact, this survivor recounted a super eerie detail. He and his neighbor were in the water, and as the fire intensified with ambers flying everywhere, the boats in the harbor began to catch on fire. As the ropes to these boats burned...the burning boats began to drift out to sea. His friend/neighbor was struggling to keep his footing and had gone quiet for some time, but he roused him to ask him to look at the burning boats....in a single file, on fire...drifting out...as if they were being driven by captains.....just to see if he was seeing the same thing. He felt like he was going crazy.

One small point of "kind of" comic relief. He and his friend get rescued by the coast guard. On board they see two other survivors that they saw at one point during the chaos on the shore....two people in their bathing suits. The man was red...burned from the wind, the woman wasn't as bad. She came over to him on the boat and handed him a pair of underwear to put over his face as he was choking on the smoke. He thought to himself....I'm not putting your underwear over my face lady. But then he realized she had put on a pair of shorts and and a shirt over her bathing suit...*his* shorts...and a shirt he'd gotten in Las Vegas several years back. They'd found his abandoned bag on the jetty and put some clothes on. So...he took the underwear to cover his face....it was his underwear.

I'll take y'all's word on it because I don't think I could read about it and not feel utterly sick to my stomach. I already felt that way enough with just what was written in the comments above but I appreciate at least giving an overview, their stories are important to be heard too.