Marathon Weekend 2023

[PrincessV]

My training has been so inconsistent building base miles that I’m running into longer recovery time on these long runs than I’d like - I’m also extremely sensitive to heat, so I’m hoping to avoid putting myself in a situation that is potentially dangerous. I am leaning towards going for it and walking a large portion, but any last minute advice is welcome!

Y’all are honestly making me tear up a little bit with the support and encouragement. I am already goin pretty slow on the 15 and 18 mile runs I’ve completed, however 14mm is my average, so I definitely have some buffer to slow it down. When I’m doing my 45 min sessions or short runs I average 12-13mm. I’m a back of the packer who does run/walk intervals, but even then my weekly mileage has been ALL over the place. I’ve been pretty on it through November and I’ve still got three weeks to maintain, and one last Dopey sim weekend…It’s really going to come down to how I feel after my 20 miles next weekend (this weekend is a break with only 7 miles).

I do think my nutrition is where I’m failing. I usually just use a few caffeinated GU gels during my halves so I was just doubling, but with the way I’m crashing and cramping after mile 16 I’m going to invest in some salt caps, as well as lower my caffeine intake since I heard it can hurt performance if you take too much. Definitely digging through previous nutrition talk on this thread and taking notes!

I am by no means any kind of expert, but I’ve done a few Dopeys with similar pacing, so I’ll throw a couple thoughts your way!

First, if you’re able to complete 18-20 miles in training, you really are in good shape for this. I assume you’re planning a taper, and I swear to you that you will feel very, very different doing the b2b2b2b races after that taper than you do now in training! It’s supposed to feel hard now because you’re training your body to deal with it when it counts.

2nd, fueling: a very general rule of thumb is 100cals per hour-ish. My blood sugar runs chronically low, so I do a gel every 45 minutes, and I sip my fluids every 1/2 mile, going through 12oz in about 5-6 miles. I add electrolytes via Nuun in my water in warm weather, and in the marathon I’ll add some Tailwind (or Powerade from the course). YMMV, but I find fueling from the very beginning and keeping up with it is critical, especially for those of us like you (and me!) who are out there a long time.

3rd: one thing I’ve done to reduce effort on the 5K and 10K is more walking, less running. So instead of :30/:30 intervals, I’ll do 1:00walk/:30run, for example. And a ridiculous amount of time taking pics and having fun. Makes for a longer time, but a lot less wear and tear on my body.

4th: after the half, I take the rest of that day as a rest day - no parks, minimal walking/standing. I like doing “recovery“ laundry to make sure I get up and move regularly, and if the weather’s nice I might do some very easy swimming, but mostly I read, watch a movie, nap if my body says it wants to… my sole focus is recovery.

Lastly, I find easing into both the half and full feels good. Like, I’ve often walked the first 1/4 mile of each, starting from the very back of my corral, enjoying a few minutes mostly on my own before the next corral/wave starts. I think that‘s mostly mental, but I feel like it gives me space to clear my head, tune in to my body, and prepare to get into a groove, vs. the frenetic vibe of starting out running in the thick of a big group of bodies.

 

[DisneyMountainWoman]

SAFD: So my goal was to finish my first marathon and see as many characters as possible. So far I have been doing good on my training with chris twiggs customized program. My longest run I have done is 23 miles, but two days ago my ankle started hurting after a run. Then it hurt the next day. So now I babying it and resting. I was suppose to do 26 miles on Sat, I probably will not, waiting to hear back on what I should do instead. I am worried about losing my endurance... since I did the 23 miles Nov 12th, that was a while ago. So I am worried if I do not do another long again I will have peaked too early and lose a lot of what I built up.

 

[Bree]

Galloway pacers were released

 

[jrsharp21]

SAFD: So my goal was to finish my first marathon and see as many characters as possible. So far I have been doing good on my training with chris twiggs customized program. My longest run I have done is 23 miles, but two days ago my ankle started hurting after a run. Then it hurt the next day. So now I babying it and resting. I was suppose to do 26 miles on Sat, I probably will not, waiting to hear back on what I should do instead. I am worried about losing my endurance... since I did the 23 miles Nov 12th, that was a while ago. So I am worried if I do not do another long again I will have peaked too early and lose a lot of what I built up.

This is what happened to me after a long run. Felt completely fine afterward and then that night I had a stabbing pain behind the inside ankle bone. I ended up doing a 10k on it on Thanksgiving. After that race I ran once in 10 days. It would hurt at the very beginning of the run and then a mile in it would loosen up and start to feel a little better, but still felt it. This week I got back to running each day. On Wednesday I had no pain. Yesterday I felt it a little bit. Today was no pain. So thinking a little bit of tendonitis going on. Hopefully for you it's not something major and something that will fade with rest.

 

[lookingforsunshine]

Ooo, Chris Turner is doing the 6:15. I’m not planning to run with a pace group but good to know someone I trust will be out there.

 

[DopeyBadger]

It’s really going to come down to how I feel after my 20 miles next weekend (this weekend is a break with only 7 miles).

Unless you REALLY REALLY want to do the 20 miler from a mental standpoint, then based on what you've shared about an inconsistent base you're probably better off physically with going with less. Doing another 18 miler, or 16, or 17 is perfectly fine. I train people who do 11-14 milers for their max long run (albeit with more weekday mileage) and they finish the Dopey as expected. Physically speaking there isn't anything special about the 20 miler that makes it a must do, especially when some of the other training may have been a little more inconsistent. Focus on the consistency in what you can do moving forward, and don't dwell on what is now in the past.

As for the nutrition end, I'm not there with you, so I can't say this definitively, but if I were to take an educated guess I'd say it's less of a nutrition thing and possibly more just a training volume/unbalanced issue. By no means can I say that with 100% confidence, but the issues you may be having may have more to do with the inconsistent training from earlier. What are the temps you're currently training in? About how long in duration is it when you notice these issues you've been having? Do you see a noticeable fade in the ending miles (the first miles are faster than the end miles, and the difference is not due to an increase in temps or in course elevation changes)? When your legs cramped, was it an immediate stop to your ability to run? That's not to say improving your nutrition isn't also a good thing (because it is), but it may not be a complete fix to the issue if it's training related.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Ooo, Chris Turner is doing the 6:15. I’m not planning to run with a pace group but good to know someone I trust will be out there.

It’s terrible that I saw that and immediately thought ooooooh….maybe I could run with that group? But realistically I make too many stops for that to happen. I ran a 6:11 for my first marathon (that was 0.3mi short according to my garmin) and a 7:09 “last” year for MW with all the photo stops.

 

[cruisin5]

Are the balloon ladies part of the 16/min/mile pace group?

Is is possible to know how far ahead you are from the ladies? I see they have a twitter feed but I'd rather not keep looking at my watch.

This is a wonderful group, thank you!

 

[lookingforsunshine]

Are the balloon ladies part of the 16/min/mile pace group?

Is is possible to know how far ahead you are from the ladies? I see they have a twitter feed but I'd rather not keep looking at my watch.

No, they are a few minutes behind that group.

If you don’t want any of the various phone techniques, the race volunteers on bikes let you know periodically, especially if they are relatively close. They’ll tell you how many minutes behind the balloon ladies are.

 

[Bree]

Ooo, Chris Turner is doing the 6:15. I’m not planning to run with a pace group but good to know someone I trust will be out there.

I’d love to run with him for a half marathon. He’s just such a nice guy.

Are the balloon ladies part of the 16/min/mile pace group?

Is is possible to know how far ahead you are from the ladies? I see they have a twitter feed but I'd rather not keep looking at my watch.

This is a wonderful group, thank you!

The pacers usually start at the front of the all corrals. The balloon ladies and official sweepers will start at the very back of the last corral. There will be a few minute buffer between the pacers in the last corral and the sweepers.

ETA: there’s a way to forward the tracking from email to text. They only offered twitter at first for W&D, but added email race weekend. I don’t have the list for providers readily available to me right now, but google could tell you.

 

[Herding_Cats]

We just tracked the 16:00 pace groups (Dennis did them both last year as well) for the text alerts, as well as ourselves so we could compare our time stamps to theirs and to do minimal running math.

 

[sandam1]

Ooo, Chris Turner is doing the 6:15. I’m not planning to run with a pace group but good to know someone I trust will be out there.

Honestly, you should trust any of the runDisney pacers. I know that they all take the Disney races very, very seriously and only the best get asked.

Are the balloon ladies part of the 16/min/mile pace group?

For last year's MW half, the balloon ladies started 1 minute and 30 seconds behind the 16 min/mile pace group. And the pacers were kept updated (I'm not sure what they were doing to track it) to make sure that they stayed that way. I was with this pace group from the time they left the Magic Kingdom to the cloverleaf turn towards Epcot and it was pretty remarkable watching them work.

 

[matt and beth]

Honestly, you should trust any of the runDisney pacers. I know that they all take the Disney races very, very seriously and only the best get asked.



For last year's MW half, the balloon ladies started 1 minute and 30 seconds behind the 16 min/mile pace group. And the pacers were kept updated (I'm not sure what they were doing to track it) to make sure that they stayed that way. I was with this pace group from the time they left the Magic Kingdom to the cloverleaf turn towards Epcot and it was pretty remarkable watching them work.

Seems like last year they were concerned about hot weather and they started each corral much quicker than usual. We started in the front of 3 with a decent pace and by the time we did that silly loop at Epcot everyone was gone. Just an FYI for anyone hoping for extra time

 

[jennysdcc]

Unless you REALLY REALLY want to do the 20 miler from a mental standpoint, then based on what you've shared about an inconsistent base you're probably better off physically with going with less. Doing another 18 miler, or 16, or 17 is perfectly fine. I train people who do 11-14 milers for their max long run (albeit with more weekday mileage) and they finish the Dopey as expected. Physically speaking there isn't anything special about the 20 miler that makes it a must do, especially when some of the other training may have been a little more inconsistent. Focus on the consistency in what you can do moving forward, and don't dwell on what is now in the past.

As for the nutrition end, I'm not there with you, so I can't say this definitively, but if I were to take an educated guess I'd say it's less of a nutrition thing and possibly more just a training volume/unbalanced issue. By no means can I say that with 100% confidence, but the issues you may be having may have more to do with the inconsistent training from earlier. What are the temps you're currently training in? About how long in duration is it when you notice these issues you've been having? Do you see a noticeable fade in the ending miles (the first miles are faster than the end miles, and the difference is not due to an increase in temps or in course elevation changes)? When your legs cramped, was it an immediate stop to your ability to run? That's not to say improving your nutrition isn't also a good thing (because it is), but it may not be a complete fix to the issue if it's training related.

I really appreciate this response and your perspective - to answer your questions, I’ve shifted indoors to an inclined treadmill for my long runs and I’m training outdoors in Chicago for my short runs and long walks. I’m trying to do indoors for my 10+ mile runs knowing that I’m not great in heat, so trying to simulate fueling/electrolyte management in 72+ degree temps.

My pace is consistent at 14mm until 16 miles - my last two miles of my 18 miler were a proper struggle. The soreness of my feet and tightness in my legs at that point made it very difficult to keep going and I walked a majority of the last two miles in my run.

 

[DisneyMountainWoman]

This is what happened to me after a long run. Felt completely fine afterward and then that night I had a stabbing pain behind the inside ankle bone. I ended up doing a 10k on it on Thanksgiving. After that race I ran once in 10 days. It would hurt at the very beginning of the run and then a mile in it would loosen up and start to feel a little better, but still felt it. This week I got back to running each day. On Wednesday I had no pain. Yesterday I felt it a little bit. Today was no pain. So thinking a little bit of tendonitis going on. Hopefully for you it's not something major and something that will fade with rest.

I am trying to figure out how long I should rest and not run. Last time I went to a Dr about this kind of thing they were useless... like take some time off rest it run when it stops hurting for a bit. Like thanks for that glad a paid a ton of money for what I already know. So hesitant on going to the Dr about it esp since it does not hurt that bad I just do not want to do any long term damage right before our race.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I really appreciate this response and your perspective - to answer your questions, I’ve shifted indoors to an inclined treadmill for my long runs and I’m training outdoors in Chicago for my short runs and long walks. I’m trying to do indoors for my 10+ mile runs knowing that I’m not great in heat, so trying to simulate fueling/electrolyte management in 72+ degree temps.

My pace is consistent at 14mm until 16 miles - my last two miles of my 18 miler were a proper struggle. The soreness of my feet and tightness in my legs at that point made it very difficult to keep going and I walked a majority of the last two miles in my run.

Here's my recommendation.

A fade in training should be exceedingly rare. Almost should never happen in training. If it does, then it means the pace was too aggressive and/or the distance/duration was too much for your current training fitness level. I don't have enough data to say whether the 14 min/mile is appropriate (if you give me some Magic Mile or races within the last 6 months, then I could dive deeper), so for the sake of example, let's say a 14 min/mile is appropriate. The 16 miles was good and consistent and then you saw a fade. So I think on this last long run you should plan to cap at 16 miles. Because this distance/duration might seem too short, I want you to aim for a fast finish. So do a 14 min/mile for the first 14 miles, and then in the last two miles I want you to attempt to pick up the pace a touch. See if you can do a 13:45 or a 13:30. If you can't that's fine. Try and maintain a 14 min/mile. But I want you to really try and see if you can convince yourself despite how you're feeling at Mile 13.75 of the training run that you can in fact pick up the pace a touch when that was in intent of the training run going into it. If you see a fade slower than what you were doing earlier in the run, then call it a day. Don't power through, and don't make up those miles on a different day.

Second, I'd strongly consider doing the last long run outdoors if the Chicago weather behaves. I understand your thought process in advance of FL weather and doing the long runs on the tread. But I think the differences between a treadmill and outdoor running is doing a bit of disservice to your physical preparation for Dopey. One of the main challenges of Dopey is the constant pounding your body will take over the 4 days. The outdoor training will simulate that pounding, whereas the treadmill is kinder to your body. Now if the choice is no running (because bad weather conditions or other reasons) versus treadmill, then run on the treadmill. But I think you'll be better served outdoors.

Lastly, to better prepare for FL weather coming from a northern climate consider doing heat acclimation training, which can still be done outdoors. You just overdress by about 20-30 F degrees. So if you typically wear multiple jackets at 20F and wear a long sleeve at 45F, then if it is 45F outside wear the multiple jackets. Even better if you wear a poorly venting jacket that creates a micro-climate around your skin. Do this for about 8-10 runs, or starting about 2 weeks before the first Dopey event. This will help acclimate your body to warm weather running. It won't completely simulate everything, but it will be a good preparation. The bonus is that you stay outdoors so you can challenge your body differently than the treadmill. There is some preliminary research I read about the use of a hot tub for about 30-45 min post-run for three days prior to event that shows similar results to a 2 week heat acclimation run training schedule, but I'd like to see more research on that methodology before I'd ascribe to it.

 

[GollyGadget]

There is some preliminary research I read about the use of a hot tub for about 30-45 min post-run for three days prior to event that shows similar results to a 2 week heat acclimation run training schedule

Thanks for posting this. I remembered there was a hot tub alternative but couldn't remember what it was. I'll be traveling starting the 29th so far too early to use my hot tub. Guess I better go find my layers...

 

[lookingforsunshine]

There is some preliminary research I read about the use of a hot tub for about 30-45 min post-run for three days prior to event that shows similar results to a 2 week heat acclimation run training schedule

I volunteer to participate in further research on this I loveee hot tubs.

 

[jennysdcc]

14 min/mile is appropriate (if you give me some Magic Mile or races within the last 6 months, then I could dive deeper), so for the sake of example, let's say a 14 min/mile is appropriate. The 16 miles was good and consistent and then you saw a fade. So I think on this last long run you should plan to cap at 16 miles. Because this distance/duration might seem too short, I want you to aim for a fast finish. So do a 14 min/mile for the first 14 miles, and then in the last two miles I want you to attempt to pick up the pace a touch. See if you can do a 13:45 or a 13:30. If you can't that's fine. Try and maintain a 14 min/mile. But I want you to really try and see if you can convince yourself despite how you're feeling at Mile 13.75 of the training run that you can in fact pick up the pace a touch when that was in intent of the training run going into it. If you see a fade slower than what you were doing earlier in the run, then call it a day. Don't power through, and don't make up those miles on a different day.

Second, I'd strongly consider doing the last long run outdoors if the Chicago weather behaves. I understand your thought process in advance of FL weather and doing the long runs on the tread. But I think the differences between a treadmill and outdoor running is doing a bit of disservice to your physical preparation for Dopey. One of the main challenges of Dopey is the constant pounding your body will take over the 4 days. The outdoor training will simulate that pounding, whereas the treadmill is kinder to your body. Now if the choice is no running (because bad weather conditions or other reasons) versus treadmill, then run on the treadmill. But I think you'll be better served outdoors.

Lastly, to better prepare for FL weather coming from a northern climate consider doing heat acclimation training, which can still be done outdoors. You just overdress by about 20-30 F degrees. So if you typically wear multiple jackets at 20F and wear a long sleeve at 45F, then if it is 45F outside wear the multiple jackets. Even better if you wear a poorly venting jacket that creates a micro-climate around your skin. Do this for about 8-10 runs, or starting about 2 weeks before the first Dopey event. This will help acclimate your body to warm weather running. It won't completely simulate everything, but it will be a good preparation. The bonus is that you stay outdoors so you can challenge your body differently than the treadmill. There is some preliminary research I read about the use of a hot tub for about 30-45 min post-run for three days prior to event that shows similar results to a 2 week heat acclimation run training schedule, but I'd like to see more research on that methodology before I'd ascribe to it.

Taking a look at the magic mile calculator (will do a new magic mile this week for better data) but in September I was 11:26, and my most recent half marathon in May I had a 2:58 finish time. By that math I should probably be slowing it down to 14:45-15mm. Add on inconsistent training in September-October...I think I need to cool my jets a bit.

I'm going to print out this response and stuff it in my workout clothes drawer so I don't hide away from the outdoors. 7 miles tomorrow on pavement, will report back. Really appreciate all of the feedback and advice - I realize I've done this to myself and may not be physically capable of this kind of demanding challenge at the moment but the support found in the running community really is somethin else.

 

[AJruns]

Thanks for posting this. I remembered there was a hot tub alternative but couldn't remember what it was. I'll be traveling starting the 29th so far too early to use my hot tub. Guess I better go find my layers...

I believe there’s research on saunas too! And hot baths if you don’t have access to either. I’m terrible in the heat and maybe this is the year I try to help that