Marathon Weekend 2019

[DopeyBadger]

I hear ya. I just figured 9:30 was my easy pace and my faster pace was closer to 8. I tried to run my 11 miles yesterday slower, and started at 10:30. After four miles I was completely dead, switched to a 2/1 run/walk and ended up stopping after 8 miles. It was rough.

*Just re-linking for my future conversation reference.

Honestly, it does take time to adjust to the slower pacing. Some people it takes a few weeks of committing to it. Others have taken as long as six months. I have a few people where the easy paces are uncomfortable. I usually request a few weeks at the easy pacing first. If things don't turn around, then we make a run/walk easy pace that serves the same purpose. It's hard for me to say whether this is completely the slower pacing, or if possibly the last few weeks of training also played some role in today's feelings. I'd say don't give up yet. Try some easier runs (9:57-10:41) for some 45-60 min runs (or some of the mid-week Higdon runs). For the long runs (runs longer than 90 min), stick with the 9:35 pace which is a tad faster than what you started with this time. Do you have a HR monitor? If so, do you know your resting HR and max HR (not 220-age calc)? We could see what the HR data says about your easy range per Daniels recommendations.

 

[Andie16]

*Just re-linking for my future conversation reference.

Honestly, it does take time to adjust to the slower pacing. Some people it takes a few weeks of committing to it. Others have taken as long as six months. I have a few people where the easy paces are uncomfortable. I usually request a few weeks at the easy pacing first. If things don't turn around, then we make a run/walk easy pace that serves the same purpose. It's hard for me to say whether this is completely the slower pacing, or if possibly the last few weeks of training also played some role in today's feelings. I'd say don't give up yet. Try some easier runs (10:15-11:00) for some 45-60 min runs (or some of the mid-week Higdon runs). For the long runs, stick with the 9:53 pace which is a tad faster than what you started with this time. Do you have a HR monitor? If so, do you know your resting HR and max HR (not 220-age calc)? We could see what the HR data says about your easy range per Daniels recommendations.

Hi DopeyBadger, these paces look different from the ones you posted earlier - is it possible that there is a copy/paste error here? I happened to notice the long run pace of 9:35 in your earlier chart since it is fairly close to mine. I was actually wondering if running the long runs too slow is preventing @JBinORL from building up sufficient endurance to support his speed.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Hi DopeyBadger, these paces look different from the ones you posted earlier - is it possible that there is a copy/paste error here? I happened to notice the long run pace of 9:35 in your earlier chart since it is fairly close to mine. I was actually wondering if running the long runs too slow is preventing @JBinORL from building up sufficient endurance to support his speed.

Thanks for noticing. I've edited it. It's possible to run long runs too slow, but the Hansons range (MP + 9%) is on the faster end of the spectrum. Others suggest as slow as MP+20%. It's a matter of all the runs together that would help determine if something might be too slow though.

 

[DopeyBadger]

@JBinORL I just went and reread the conversation based on @Andie16 comment.

So your fitness is a 50:25 10k. In march you averaged 9:12, but maxed at 9 miles. In the past, when you run 14 miles or more you've been running them at 10:30-11:00. But when you ran your recent 11 miles, you started off at 10:30 and felt dead because it was too slow or too fast (or just dead regardless of pace)? What's an average paced month when you had been doing 14-20 mile runs at 10:30-11:00 pace?

Typically I'd set up a schedule like the following for a HM in the middle of training (just using 5 days a week as an example):

M-OFF
T- 60 min at EA (10:41)
W- 20 min WU + 50 min at HM Tempo (8:29) + 10 min CD
R- 60 min at EA (10:41)
F-OFF
Sa- 80 min at EB (9:57)
Su- 110 min at LR (9:35)

The Tuesday and Thursday runs are meant for recovery and maintaining fatigue. Wednesday is for HM Tempo gains. Saturday is for building fatigue into the Sunday LR day. And Sunday as previously discussed.

If the 11 miler at 10:30 caused dead legs because too slow, the try speeding up to the 9:35 pace. It's the other bulk of days that help drag down the average weekly pace by actually being slower than LR.

If the 11 miler at 10:30 caused dead legs because it was too fast, then you may need to preform a 2 week reset of only easy pacing to help clear the system.

Of course all of this would be dependent on when the upcoming goal race is. That dictates when it's smart to make a change in paces or not. Or how best to approach making changes to what you've been doing.

 

[Dis5150]

SAFD: Big Thunder for the win!

 

[PrincessV]

Question for the folks who fall within the intersection of people who track their runs with smart phones and people who use Strava (or other run tracking software):

For the first time in about a billion years, I will no longer have a company phone and will be relying on my own phone. I use my iPhone and Strava to track my runs, but I've never had to worry about data usage before. I'll be getting a personal phone in the coming weeks and I'm curious how much data Strava - and similar apps - use? Is it enough that I should consider an unlimited data plan? I don't actually upload my runs until I get home, but I do use GPS throughout my runs to track pace, distance, etc.

I have a limited data plan... I use the iSmoothRun app on my iPhone and I use no data at all: I actually keep Cellular Data turned off while running to avoid draining my battery. GPS-based apps do not require cellular data to run, so you can turn it off and still use apps like iSmoothRun, RunKeeper, Map My Run, etc. - I would assume the same with Strava, but I don't use it so can't say for sure. At the end of my run, I just hit "save" and it saves locally to my phone. When I get home and have WiFi, I export my run from iSmoothRun to RunKeeper, where all my runs are saved online.

So, what's your favorite mountain - Splash, Space, Big Thunder Mountain Railroad or Expedition Everest?

Everest!

 

[Bulldogmommy]

Early Registration info?? Anyone? Anyone?

 

[rteetz]

Early Registration info?? Anyone? Anyone?

Nothing yet...

 

[huskies90]

I hear ya. I just figured 9:30 was my easy pace and my faster pace was closer to 8. I tried to run my 11 miles yesterday slower, and started at 10:30. After four miles I was completely dead, switched to a 2/1 run/walk and ended up stopping after 8 miles. It was rough.

I had a similar experience. I tried to slow down a long run several weeks ago and when I hit 9 miles, my legs were killing me and I had to stop and walk the last 3-4 miles back to my house. I typically do not stop on long runs and since, then, I have been running longer runs every couple of weeks adding a mile or so each time and I have been just doing it at my "comfortable" pace and I have not had any issues.

You can't argue with the success of the slow down theory but I am not sure I can commit to it. Maybe it takes several runs to get used it? I seem to feel (and maybe it is mental) that the slower i go, the longer I am on the roads and mentally can't make that trade off? Idk.

 

[lahobbs4]

Splash Mountain for this girl!

I've been training on a treadmill (for the first time in years) and finally started going back outside again, once in a while. However, my body is naturally running 1 min mile faster than my treadmill runs. And then I freak out when I see it on my watch and force myself to slow down. Is this normal coming off of the treadmill?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Maybe it takes several runs to get used it?

It certainly does. It took me weeks for it to feel "normal". I thought every run was so ridiculously easy. How can I possibly go this slow? But if you stick with the methodology consistently for all the runs and not just the LR, then things do turn around. For some, after a few weeks and for others a few months.

I will say that most who start this transition, do so at the beginning of a training cycle. That way, instead of a 90-120 min LR being the first at slower paces, it's instead when you're at the 45-60 min range. Build your way up to it.

I seem to feel (and maybe it is mental) that the slower i go, the longer I am on the roads and mentally can't make that trade off? Idk.

One way to combat this would be to calculate your comfortable pace x mileage. This will give you the duration of said run. Then, just run the new slower pace for the same duration. Then you are confirming to yourself that you are indeed going slower, but for the same amount of time on the road.

As training plans progress and get more complicated, that's when you start throwing in hybrid-long runs. You do long runs at the slow pace, but you have fast finishes, marathon tempo in the middle, speed pacing, etc. It makes the long run more interesting and still reaps a certain set of benefits. Before I go to hybrid though, I usually wait and see if the runner can do the long run as scheduled first. These hybrid runs definitely make the long run more challenging and the time fly by.

At the end of the day though, training is 99% of what we do. So if you'd prefer to train faster and possibly (but not definitely) sacrifice some gains made in racing, then by all means train at whatever pace you want. You have to love the training because it's pretty much all we do. But the day I went from 4:20 marathon to 3:38 marathon (or 1:55 HM to 1:38 HM) in the span of ~18 weeks, I never looked back on training slower because for me those race time improvements were worth it. Trust me, once you start running the easier days slower, you can add some pretty interesting and difficult hard days in the mix. It certainly keeps things interesting.

 

[jennamfeo]

SAFD: SPACE MOUNTAIN ALL DAY EVERY DAY.

 

[JBinORL]

@JBinORL I just went and reread the conversation based on @Andie16 comment.

So your fitness is a 50:25 10k. In march you averaged 9:12, but maxed at 9 miles. In the past, when you run 14 miles or more you've been running them at 10:30-11:00. But when you ran your recent 11 miles, you started off at 10:30 and felt dead because it was too slow or too fast (or just dead regardless of pace)? What's an average paced month when you had been doing 14-20 mile runs at 10:30-11:00 pace?

Typically I'd set up a schedule like the following for a HM in the middle of training (just using 5 days a week as an example):

M-OFF
T- 60 min at EA (10:41)
W- 20 min WU + 50 min at HM Tempo (8:29) + 10 min CD
R- 60 min at EA (10:41)
F-OFF
Sa- 80 min at EB (9:57)
Su- 110 min at LR (9:35)

The Tuesday and Thursday runs are meant for recovery and maintaining fatigue. Wednesday is for HM Tempo gains. Saturday is for building fatigue into the Sunday LR day. And Sunday as previously discussed.

If the 11 miler at 10:30 caused dead legs because too slow, the try speeding up to the 9:35 pace. It's the other bulk of days that help drag down the average weekly pace by actually being slower than LR.

If the 11 miler at 10:30 caused dead legs because it was too fast, then you may need to preform a 2 week reset of only easy pacing to help clear the system.

Of course all of this would be dependent on when the upcoming goal race is. That dictates when it's smart to make a change in paces or not. Or how best to approach making changes to what you've been doing.

OK I'm going to go back and look at my last two marathon cycles to see what my paces were at. My A race is MCM in October and my goal is to destroy my 5:12 PR and come in somewhere between 4 and 4:30. I don't think, despite what my predicted marathon time is, I'm currently capable of sub-4 due to my lack of fitness beyond 13 miles. I'll post some more when I get home from work.

I did run slower today, 5 miles at 10:07 pace. It felt a bit better, but my HR was getting too high towards the end. I think this run, and Saturday's aborted 11 miler, were more impacted by the heat and humidity over anything else - it's starting to warm up in Central Florida. I usually take a few weeks to adjust to it, coming from Memphis where the same thing would occur.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I did run slower today, 5 miles at 10:07 pace. It felt a bit better, but my HR was getting too high towards the end. I think this run, and Saturday's aborted 11 miler, were more impacted by the heat and humidity over anything else - it's starting to warm up in Central Florida. I usually take a few weeks to adjust to it, coming from Memphis where the same thing would occur.

That'll play a role as well. I typically advise Temp + Dew adjustments to my pacing structure as well. Something like the following:

OK I'm going to go back and look at my last two marathon cycles to see what my paces were at. My A race is MCM in October and my goal is to destroy my 5:12 PR and come in somewhere between 4 and 4:30. I don't think, despite what my predicted marathon time is, I'm currently capable of sub-4 due to my lack of fitness beyond 13 miles. I'll post some more when I get home from work.

Well I'm here if you want to use me as a resource. I feel quite confident that if you let me write you a plan that I can get you under 4:30 with 90% confidence. I also think we could possibly get you under 4 hours with about a 10-20% chance of that. Just a matter of looking at all the data and finding the best course of action from there.

 

[TCB in FLA]

SAFD: Everest gets my vote here. It won Best Ride Ever status when I was able to ride it during my first Disney full in 2014. I was too early to ride it this year, so I may have drowned my disappointment with a margarita from the bar next to it.

 

[apdebord]

SAFD: Splash! Sadly the other 3 have started to make me sick, so a few years ago the answer would have been Space.

 

[LdyStormy76]

I've been training on a treadmill (for the first time in years) and finally started going back outside again, once in a while. However, my body is naturally running 1 min mile faster than my treadmill runs. And then I freak out when I see it on my watch and force myself to slow down. Is this normal coming off of the treadmill?

My non running DH has a theory about this when we talk about the fact that over a certain speed on the treadmill I feel off balance/ uncomfortable / unsafe. He thinks it is because off the treadmill I have more control since only I am moving and on the treadmill there are 2 moving objects - me and the belt. Not sure if there is any support to his theory, but it makes sense in a weird way.

 

[FlashAM7]

Splash Mountain for me! It is the definition of a perfectly themed ride. I truly feel immersed when I am riding it. The animatronics, the music, the thrills, the show scenes are all perfect.

Big Thunder is an off-the-shelf roller coaster. There is nothing truly unique about it. It's a mine train coaster with no animatronics, no real show scenes, and I never feel any nostalgia towards it.

If this was 10 years ago I might have chosen Everest. However due to the broken yeti, no bird and no mist effect anymore, it's lost a lot for me. The queue is absolutely great, though. All of the stuff in there actually being from Nepal means a lot to me. The detail that went into it is really fascinating.

 

[rteetz]

Big Thunder is an off-the-shelf roller coaster. There is nothing truly unique about it. It's a mine train coaster with no animatronics, no real show scenes, and I never feel any nostalgia towards it.

I know this is a topic for another thread but in no way is Big Thunder an off the shelf coaster. Primeval Whirl yes, Slinky Dog yes. Big Thunder is built into rock work. There are show scenes with it but you don’t slow down for them other than the lift hills.

 

[Bulldogmommy]

Just read AP and DVC early registration will open tomorrow at noon EST!

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