Mandalorian Season 3

[BrianL]

It's never a matter of the introduction of a female character when it's organic. The trouble with modern day Disney is that, as I find myself pointing out more and more lately when it comes to their decisions, is that they are more interested in making a "right" movie rather than a "good" movie. I almost get the feeling that they sit there with an unnecessarily long checklist ensuring that they manage to check off every box. Stop pandering to the masses when the masses aren't demanding to be pandered to.

Well, I think that's fair in some cases, though Rey was pretty organic. They decided to change up the formula, by making the Jedi type the female. That seems like something that just makes sense. Lucas was already going to have a female hero AND villain in his version.

Certainly it is fair to take issue with the execution of the sequels - it's just that calling Rey a "Mary Sue" is just such a hackneyed and trite argument and doesn't really hold true anyway. It's just a bash for the sake of bashing.

Yeah, the corproate checklists can be annoying - but sometimes it works fine and sometimes it doesn't. It's just like anything else really. It's all in the execution.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

You just lost any and all credibility when you say merchandise sales don’t matter. Star Wars has probably sold more toys and merch since inception than the original box office of the OT.

Also funny that you want to compare secondary characters from the OT to the lead character in the Disneyfied Star Wars.

You are simply unwilling to consider that you are not correct on this, which you are not.

I don’t care how long you have been a fan, facts still don’t care about your feelings on the matter.

 

[leiaorgana]

Or maybe you’re unwilling to accept that you’re not correct on this either and that you only care about facts that support your narrative

 

[supernova]

Merch sales don’t actually mean anything because a large portion of adults don’t even buy figures etc and just enjoy from afar or through passive consumption. Only someone who is really hardcore about a particular character and who has a lot of disposable income (so not kids) is going to be dropping $300+ on a Hot Toys figure or whatever upscale company is making realistic figures/busts/statues.

I'm still kicking myself for not taking a picture, but right before The Force Awakens, the Once Upon a Toy store in Disney Springs had a massive wall of whatever animal was drinking out of the trough early on in the film. I mean dozens of these rubbery squeezable toys on the shelf. And when I saw the display, I could tell that they were destined to fail And sure enough, they went no place. I don't even remember them making it to the clearance bin. They just... disappeared. As did the job of whoever came up with that atrocious marketing gem, I'm sure.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

There are literally thousands and thousands of people that agree with me. Dozens that agree with you.

You and Brian are like peas and carrots it seems.

Answer my question above then that you and Brian have avoided. Adjusting for inflation could Disney sell Lucas films for more or less than the $4B they paid George for it?

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

Lucas’s female Jedi would have had a real hero’s journey and not have been a Mary Sue, and you can take that to the bank. How do I know this, well because Lucas knew how to tell a story.

In that alternate universe Star Wars is not a damaged IP either.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

7,000 plus layoffs recently sure seems to suggest Disney might want to start listening to what the fans want instead of what the corporate formula spits out.

 

[leiaorgana]

I guess what I meant by saying that merchandise sales don’t matter as much is that realistically not everyone who’s a Star Wars fan is going out and buying merch for it or for the characters they like and are drawn to from the franchise so you can’t just base it on that alone. Causal fans who just watch for fun certainly won’t be banging down the door to get the next Black Series/Hot Toys figure or replica and a large chunk of adults who like Star Wars aren’t burning money on toys and action figures for themselves because they’re either not into that kind of thing or they don’t have any disposable income to “waste” on unnecessary (and sometimes luxury) items like that. It doesn’t mean that they don’t like and enjoy a certain character or a certain trilogy of films just because they’re not buying up every scrap of merchandise for them.

But of course there’s also a certain adult demographic out there who obviously are into collecting and find enjoyment from doing that (myself included) and take it seriously so it’s not surprising that because of that demographic’s general age range and several other aspects associated with that demographic that the popularity of particular characters and figures that they want are skewed more towards Luke, Vader, Boba, Mando and Han etc. Like of course it’s going to be. I can’t imagine there’s many 7 year olds out there asking their parents to get them a $500 high end Luke or Rey figurine, let’s be real. The majority of those kids that like SW are probably just grateful for the few cheaper Hasbro toys that they have and can get their hands on and it’s also very unlikely that their parents are going to be buying them a $30+ Black Series figure either when they can get the standard ones for a fraction of the price and their kids will be just as happy to have the characters that they like to play with. They’ve made multiple different versions of Rey in the Funko Pops so someone must be buying them (unlike the TFA and TLJ Luke ones that were clogging the shelves) otherwise they wouldn’t keep making slightly different versions of her every few months.

I agree with what a pp said though that the merchandise strategy for both The Force Awakens and Rogue One was bizarre in what Disney made and put out for the films. There were a lot of toys made for characters, creatures and droids that were massively hyped up and then it turned out that they were barely even in either film or were cut out entirely that ended up sitting around collecting dust for a year at various stores until they eventually disappeared for the next film’s stock to replace them. I can only assume that the reason for that was because fear of spoilers and the bait and switch they ended up doing with Rey and Finn in TFA and not being able to produce anything with Rey with Anakin’s lightsaber until after the film came out and people had time to see it.

Anyway, this is the last that I’m saying on the matter because there’s no nuance in the conversation and no point continuing to beat a dead horse with you. We’re never going to agree on the matter and you’ve been repeatedly condescending towards me and other posters on here with your tone because you don’t like our differing points of view to yours and I’m not interested in carrying on with that because we’re never going to see eye to eye so it’s a waste of time going around in endless circles over it. What Rey means to the new generation growing up with these new films and shows is what Luke clearly means to you at the end of the day. There’s plenty of young girls and boys, teenagers and adults out there that found themselves in Rey (and other sequel trilogy characters) and who like her as a character and what she represents both to them and in the films and that’s clear as day on other areas of the internet and in fandom spaces that are more predominantly occupied by the female section of the fanbase and that aren’t toxic subreddits and YouTube channels that all parrot the same spiel back to one another about Disney SW. You can call Rey a “Mary Sue” all you want but canon and expanded canon material supports otherwise and she’s not going away anytime soon with Disney doubling down and expanding her upcoming participation in the New Jedi Order film that’s in the works.

This thread has been derailed enough with this topic and I apologise to the op for my part in that because it’s unfair to them to have it taken over in the way that it has been now and I don’t want this thread to end up getting locked for people who are looking to continue discussing season 3 of The Mandalorian because of this.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

So you still won’t answer the question on the value of Lucas films now versus when Disney purchased it I see. That’s the ultimate test of if a company is healthy or not, which is exactly why you won’t answer the question. However, I’m the closed minded one?

 

[BrianL]

So you still won’t answer the question on the value of Lucas films now versus when Disney purchased it I see. That’s the ultimate test of if a company is healthy or not, which is exactly why you won’t answer the question. However, I’m the closed minded one?

How could we possibly know the answer to that?

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/force-left-lucasfilm-gone-wrong-083000919.html

Here is an article from a little known publication Fortune Magazine on the matter. If you’re willing to actually objectively look at this situation, give it a quick read.

 

[BrianL]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/force-left-lucasfilm-gone-wrong-083000919.html

Here is an article from a little known publication Fortune Magazine on the matter. If you’re willing to actually objectively look at this situation, give it a quick read.

I have read that article. It does not speculate on the current value of Luccasfilm.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

It's a main stream media article that directly states that a large portion of the fans and Mark Hammill did not care the deconstruction of Luke Skywalker.

Do you like apples? How you like them apples?


See if you will answer this one:

"When Iger acquired Lucasfilm for just over $4 billion a decade ago, it paired the century-old animation company with the studio behind Star Wars and Raiders of the Lost Ark. Yet the match made in heaven now risks becoming an albatross around Disney’s neck."

Does this statement in a major financial publication seem to suggest the value of Lucasfilm is trending in a good direction or bad?


Look you have a right to your opinion just like leia does, but what you don't have the right to do is minimize the majority of the fans who disagree with you. Your thoughts on this matter are clearly in the minority, as major financial publications do not publish the opinions of the "vocal minority" as you like to say.

 

[BrianL]

It's a main stream media article that directly states that a large portion of the fans and Mark Hammill did not care the deconstruction of Luke Skywalker.

Do you like apples? How you like them apples?


See if you will answer this one:

"When Iger acquired Lucasfilm for just over $4 billion a decade ago, it paired the century-old animation company with the studio behind Star Wars and Raiders of the Lost Ark. Yet the match made in heaven now risks becoming an albatross around Disney’s neck."

Does this statement in a major financial publication seem to suggest the value of Lucasfilm is trending in a good direction or bad?


Look you have a right to your opinion just like leia does, but what you don't have the right to do is minimize the majority of the fans who disagree with you. Your thoughts on this matter are clearly in the minority, as major financial publications do not publish the opinions of the "vocal minority" as you like to say.

You are being very combative, which is why it's hard to have a discussion with you. It seems that you just want an argument, which isn't productive nor fun. If you want an echo chamber that only agrees with you, then good luck with that. If you want to actually discuss matters without the emotional diatribes, then we're around.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

So presenting current mainstream media articles that directly contradict your stated viewpoints are being combative? I have presented published facts on several portions of this conversation and you have come back with your opinions. If you are willing to link published documents from a main stream media source that backs up your points of view, I am willing to consider them. If it continues to be mainly your opinion, I am not sure you or I will agree on that.

Are you mad about the apples comment from Good Will Hunting? Ever heard of a joke man?


So back to the topic at hand. How do they fix the Mandalorian that seemed to really bleed viewers in the last season:
- I would say stop with the cameos and such as the Jack Black and Lizzo stuff was not well received by many
- Return Mando adventures like we saw in season 1 & 2
- Find someway to add nastalga without it being too much just fan service
- It all needs to start leading to a big event of some kind imho
- Grogu has tons of potential in merchandizing and popularity, so let's see some significant growth in that character
- Tell a good story first and foremost, and let every single other thing come after that
- If you simply tell a great story, people will line up to watch it

Disney+ shed 4 million subscribers in the last quarter when other streaming platforms grew, so I hope we all can agree that we want Disney+ plus growing and thriving and delivering much of that content that we crave.

 

[BrianL]

So presenting current mainstream media articles that directly contradict your stated viewpoints are being combative? I have presented published facts on several portions of this conversation and you have come back with your opinions. If you are willing to link published documents from a main stream media source that backs up your points of view, I am willing to consider them. If it continues to be mainly your opinion, I am not sure you or I will agree on that.

Are you mad about the apples comment from Good Will Hunting? Ever heard of a joke man?


So back to the topic at hand. How do they fix the Mandalorian that seemed to really bleed viewers in the last season:
- I would say stop with the cameos and such as the Jack Black and Lizzo stuff was not well received by many
- Return Mando adventures like we saw in season 1 & 2
- Find someway to add nastalga without it being too much just fan service
- It all needs to start leading to a big event of some kind imho
- Grogu has tons of potential in merchandizing and popularity, so let's see some significant growth in that character
- Tell a good story first and foremost, and let every single other thing come after that
- If you simply tell a great story, people will line up to watch it

Disney+ shed 4 million subscribers in the last quarter when other streaming platforms grew, so I hope we all can agree that we want Disney+ plus growing and thriving and delivering much of that content that we crave.

Yeah, man, you're jsut being so forceful. A joke only works when the tone is already lighthearted. You want to talk about what I have the right to do or not...it's a bit over the top. That mianstream article, while making some salient points, is just one side of the story, not the stone-cold truth or anything.

That said, I am willing to engage with the Mandalorian issues. I think the biggest misstep was basically putting two episodes of Mando in The Book of Boba Fett. Fett should have just been it's own thing, without Dinn at all. Chaining them together made it confusing for the casual fans, and they are who a show needs to be successful. The hardcore fans watched it anyway, so it doesn't cause the same issues.

To your points:
- I would say stop with the cameos and such as the Jack Black and Lizzo stuff was not well received by many
Does anyone really care about those cameos? They're just actors in roles. I think the real issue is that the episode they were featured in, while good, did not contribute to the overall arc. Then again, nobody complains about the Christopher Lloyd cameo, so that's a little telling.
- Return Mando adventures like we saw in season 1 & 2
I do think the standalone mission adventures work better and, honestly, who cares what happens to Mandalore? They're not exactly he most likable people.
- Find someway to add nastalga without it being too much just fan service
Definitely, though I think they do this well enough.
- It all needs to start leading to a big event of some kind imho
Well, it is. Dave Filoni's movie is the big event.
- Grogu has tons of potential in merchandizing and popularity, so let's see some significant growth in that character
I mean, they're not really sleeping on Grogu. The merch isn't moving like it was though as these things burn bright but fast.
- Tell a good story first and foremost, and let every single other thing come after that
They are, for the most part, doing this.
- If you simply tell a great story, people will line up to watch it
What's great is difficult to define. I don't think I'd call S3 "great" but it was still decent. They haven't quite recaptured that Season 1 magic though.

I am not sure however the the D+ subscriber bleed is at Mando's feet as it is still their most popular show. Other factors contribute to that stuff and users do hop around on streaming platforms.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

On your mandalorian points:

(I 100% agree with the Boba Fett stuff should have been stand alone) It was a bad show, and I was told they tried to save it with a few episodes of the Mandelorian crammed in. Even the actor himself knew they were screwing up the character, and even said as much before he got his hand slapped. All of this comes across as a disjointed mess, and their appears to be no real plan. I would like to see one person the Kevin Feige of Star Wars if you will, to create a roadmap of where this is going. It just feels like let's try this, ooops that didn't get watched, so now let's try this.

- I would say stop with the cameos and such as the Jack Black and Lizzo stuff was not well received by many
Does anyone really care about those cameos? They're just actors in roles. I think the real issue is that the episode they were featured in, while good, did not contribute to the overall arc. Then again, nobody complains about the Christopher Lloyd cameo, so that's a little telling. (I didn't think the Christopher Lloyd cameo was very good either, however the Jack Black and Lizzo one was dreadful..........there were tons of twitter post ragging on it in a matter of minutes)
- Return Mando adventures like we saw in season 1 & 2
I do think the standalone mission adventures work better and, honestly, who cares what happens to Mandalore? They're not exactly he most likable people. (Agreed on this)
- Find someway to add nastalga without it being too much just fan service
Definitely, though I think they do this well enough. (Disagree on this, as the OG fans are part of what is walking away in the viewership numbers.......Need to find a way to pull them back in)
- It all needs to start leading to a big event of some kind imho
Well, it is. Dave Filoni's movie is the big event. (Filoni with the keys to the kingdom gives me pretty serious concerns, I wish they could find a way to have Favreau guiding the plan). (I love the Ashoka character, but Filoni will likely only be interested in her story at the expense of everything else). (Ashoka along will not heal the fan base).
- Grogu has tons of potential in merchandizing and popularity, so let's see some significant growth in that character
I mean, they're not really sleeping on Grogu. The merch isn't moving like it was though as these things burn bright but fast. (Merchandizing lost luster because there was a massive gap between Season 2 & 3. Then season 3 was not very good on top of that).
- Tell a good story first and foremost, and let every single other thing come after that
They are, for the most part, doing this. (agree to disagree, if you tell a great story your viewership does not go down)
- If you simply tell a great story, people will line up to watch it
What's great is difficult to define. I don't think I'd call S3 "great" but it was still decent. They haven't quite recaptured that Season 1 magic though. (Agree here somewhat, but end of Season 2 was the high point of this show by a very large margin. It was the most watched episode ever, and was trending on every single form of social medial. Hundreds of hours of youtube videos were made simply as a response to that one single episode.) (So the goal needs to be the recapture the magic of Season 2 fireworks.) (I know people that had never watched any of the Mandelorian that heard about this huge event, then went back and watched all of it simply because of the massive buzz it created.) (and before you say it, yes I completely understand everything cannot be that).

 

[BrianL]

I think some people were just "raging" because they read the name Lizzo and they don't like her. I didn't even know it was her until the credits. Seriously, what was "wrong" with the cameo. They played a couple of incidental characters and they did a fine job with the material. Also, the people complaining about it online are a small subset of viewership. You've got to stop putting so much credence into Internet opinions - it really is not indicative of the overall feeling of the audience.

The thing is, if they kept it more episodic instead of trying to build an overall arc, it wouldn't matter if it was disjointed and has no plan. It wouldn't need one. Shows work better this way, just using stories of the week witht he ocassional two-parter or cliffhanger. If they want to do a movie, then do it that way. Weridly, th best episodes of S3 were the one's that stood alone, like the stuff on Coruscant, but it annoyed many becuase it didn't contribute to the BIG story. I blame Marvel for that notion that everything has to MATTER so much and be so connected.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

So, it's fairly funny that you skip right over the part where no-one liked Jack Black either, just curious as to why you focused your comments on Lizzo. The main reason I saw it ragged on was everyone compared it to the Christmas Special, you know the content that was so terrible and terribly received that Lucas wanted the copies destroyed. When two people say something on twitter, I agree with you that they don't represent the masses. However, with 50,000 people do then hundreds of youtube videos get made (with millions of followers on those content creators) dumping on how stupid it was.........yes I do believe that represents the majority of the fan base. Once again you may disagree and that is completely your right, but it does not change the fact that hundreds of thousands of people didn't like it.

I think that Lizzo is a very talented lady, that chooses some of the most awful stage costume choices in the history of costume choices. I struggle with body positivity stuff, because I really struggle with the whole morbidly obese people are "healthy" narrative. Lizzo is obese and I want her to become a healthier version of herself.

 

[BrianL]

So, it's fairly funny that you skip right over the part where no-one liked Jack Black either, just curious as to why you focused your comments on Lizzo. The main reason I saw it ragged on was everyone compared it to the Christmas Special, you know the content that was so terrible and terribly received that Lucas wanted the copies destroyed. When two people say something on twitter, I agree with you that they don't represent the masses. However, with 50,000 people do then hundreds of youtube videos get made (will millions of followers on those content creators) dumping on how stupid it was.........yes I do believe that represents the majority of the fan base. Once again you may disagree and that is completely your right, but it does not change the fact that hundreds of thousands of people didn't like it.

I think that Lizzo is a very talented lady, that chooses some of the most awful stage costume choices in the history of costume choices. I struggle with body positivity stuff, because I really struggle with the whole morbidly obese people are "healthy" narrative. Lizzo is obese and I want her to become a healthier version of herself.

But did 50,000 people do that? Did you read that many comments? And yeah, Jack Black can be polarizing too, but I think Lizzo got more hate.

Notice that I didn't say "fanbase" I said "audience." Even with a fanbase as large and passionate as Star Wars, it takes a LOT more people to make a movie or show successful. It has to reach beyond that. Yes, the "fans" get hung up on very specific things and will complain about them (endlessly), but MOST people who watch the show aren't even in that group. If only the fans went to see a movie, it would be dead at the box-office. The casual folks matter more. Also, that fanbase is not a monolith - case in point, me, who I'm sure many fans would decry as not-a-fan because of my opinions on the content.