Mandalorian Season 3

[PolymerSkywalker]

First of all, I want to thank you for pulling back on the rhetoric and emotional arguments (though the term "straight trash" isn't exactly an objective critique). The conversation has gotten better. The next part is likely to get me into trouble, but I am genuinely curious about it.

You, like so many fans, obviously feel very passionatley about The Last Jedi. I don't share the opinion, but I struggle to understand why? All things being equal, I am a GenX Star Wars fan, around for the OT. Luke was one of my childhood heroes (though admittedly I was more of a Han guy). I don't feel like his actions in TLJ were out of line nor out of character -he didn't do anything Yoda didn't do. Considering that Luke was a heavily flawed character in the OT, why is it expected that he be so perfect in his later years? Without resorting to the usual emotional arguments and attacks, can you explain to me what was really so off-base about it?

I explained all this above, but you just don't like my explanation. I will simply say again Rian Johnson's depiction of Luke was simply not Luke Skywalker. I feel that way, thousands of other OT fans feel that way, and yes as I have provided evidence that Mark Hammill feels that way. Why do you think the end of Mando season 2 nearly broke the internet? Because people saw the real Luke Skywalker back again, in all his glory. It's as simple as that, I know and love the character of Luke and he was extremely out of character in TLJ. He was so deconstructed in TLJ, that JJ really tried but could not fix it in The Rise of Skywalker. This is nearly stated work for word in the trusted financial publication I linked above, but that is still not enough for you. You disagree and want to prove me wrong.

I also have an issue with Han being treated as basically a dead beat dad, but I know Harrison Ford wanted out of Star Wars ASAP, so they had to find a fairly quick way to get him outa there.

I also think they missed a colossal opportunity to get the band back together in one scene with Luke, Han, Leia, and Chewy. Every OT fan I know wanted to see this, and Disney just refused to do it. Carrey passing prevented it from happening later.

I also hated the Mary Poppins flight of Leia, that was really goofy looking to me.

I really liked Finn, and thought he had a complex and conflicted character, but they did nothing with him.

I also hated the Holdo maneuver using the ship as a weapon, as seemed idiotic and makes all star wars space fights seem stupid that came before that one. Just do that, and win every single space battle in history.

I liked Rey alot initially, but the force abilities, light saber abilities, jedi mind tricks, flying the falcon, fixing the falcon, universally loved and accepted by everyone, basically everything just came way too easy. Even if your grandfather is one of most powerful Sith ever, even he trained extensively to develop his skills. Rey did all of this and more with almost no training of any kind, except her pretty much training herself. I am fine if you don't agree, but this is the way tons of fans feel.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

"Straight Trash" is my opinion, and I never suggested otherwise. I could be wrong in my opinion, however a massive section of the fan base seems to agree with me on this.

Your opinion is Rey is a well developed character with a perfectly normal literary hero's journey. You could be wrong, however at least some section of fan base seems to agree with you on that.

PS - I didn't tone any rhetoric down, you took just as many shots at me as I have taken at you. I am a passionate lifetime star wars fan that thinks I am right. Just like you think your opinions are right. My mind is open about your thoughts about as much is yours appears to be about mine it seems.

 

[BrianL]

I explained all this above, but you just don't like my explanation. I will simply say again Rian Johnson's depiction of Luke was simply not Luke Skywalker. I feel that way, thousands of other OT fans feel that way, and yes as I have provided evidence that Mark Hammill feels that way. Why do you think the end of Mando season 2 nearly broke the internet? Because people saw the real Luke Skywalker back again, in all his glory. It's as simple as that, I know and love the character of Luke and he was extremely out of character in TLJ. He was so deconstructed in TLJ, that JJ really tried but could not fix it in The Rise of Skywalker. This is nearly stated work for word in the trusted financial publication I linked above, but that is still not enough for you. You disagree and want to prove me wrong.

I also have an issue with Han being treated as basically a dead beat dad, but I know Harrison Ford wanted out of Star Wars ASAP, so they had to find a fairly quick way to get him outa there.

I also think they missed a colossal opportunity to get the band back together in one scene with Luke, Han, Leia, and Chewy. Every OT fan I know wanted to see this, and Disney just refused to do it. Carrey passing prevented it from happening later.

I also hated the Mary Poppins flight of Leia, that was really goofy looking to me.

I really liked Finn, and thought he had a complex and conflicted character, but they did nothing with him.

I also hated the Holdo maneuver using the ship as a weapon, as seemed idiotic and makes all star wars space fights seem stupid that came before that one. Just do that, and win every single space battle in history.

I liked Rey alot initially, but the force abilities, light saber abilities, jedi mind tricks, flying the falcon, fixing the falcon, universally loved and accepted by everyone, basically everything just came way too easy. Even if your grandfather is one of most powerful Sith ever, even he trained extensively to develop his skills. Rey did all of this and more with almost no training of any kind, except her pretty much training herself. I am fine if you don't agree, but this is the way tons of fans feel.

You have said they "deconstructed" Luke and that he was out-of-charaacter, but you haven't explained why. Just saying, "Luke would never do that," isn't an explanation. You think he wouldn't. I think he would. I can articulate my reasons for my stance. You haven't really done so. A critique is more than just "it's my opinion."

You keep bringing up Mark Hammill - this is interesting article about his feelings on the movie:

https://www.indiewire.com/features/...moralized-the-last-jedi-sxsw-2018-1201938578/

Yes, he had misgivings, but also came around to respect Rian's vision too. I think the most apt quote from that article is, “What he has to understand is that he’s not Luke Skywalker in this trilogy. He’s Obi Wan.”

And I think that's the crux of the issue. The sequels were never going to be the Luke, Han, & Leia show, nor should iit have been. It's for the kids today, jsut as the prequels were for the 90's kids. Now, if a 40 year old fan can still appreciate them, that's great too, but they were never going to be the further adventures of Luke Skywalker.

When you say "Mary Poppins" scene, that is such a trite comment. It's what one person on the Internet said and everyone starts parroting. That's why I don't take your arguments as valid critique. Talk about the why. I'll admit the special effects don't look fabulous in that scene, but I don't mind it happening. It makes sense that Leia could use the Force and survive that.

I'll give you that Finn got hosed, especially in IX, but there was only so much screen time.

Holdo maneuver was a one-time thing that can't be easily replicated. That's why she had to stay at the helm. It was very complicated and difficult to pull off. But, not getting into the nerdy explanation of how hyperspace works, I'll just say it looked cool. I also dislike Holdo because she's a bad leader, a typical know-it-all officer who doesn't trust her people. That's not a knock against the movie though - characters like that are good to have so you can root against them.

And agian, you talk so much about Rey, but what about Luke flying that X-Wing? No training indeed!

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

I looked at my wife when Leia well flew like Mary Poppins and said yeah that looks really stupid. I have no issues with the force being used there, but I can say with 1000% certainty it would not have looked like that. Once I heard multiple people saying she looked like Mary Poppins I realized they were 100% correct. Mary Poppins was my daughter’s favorite movie as a child and I have seen it probably 30 times. So yeah the description is spot on she looked like Mary Poppins.

I never asked for it to be the Luke, Han, Leia show, but one scene for literally 30 seconds and you make at least 1/2 the fan base so happy. It’s was a stupid decision that I guarantee if Igor could do again, he would change it.

 

[BrianL]

Well, you know, Yondu looked at Mary Poppins - and "He's cool!" too!

You have to serve the story though. Harrison would only do TFA if they killed him off, so they did. He was never going to meet Luke. Han & Leie did have a reunion, as did Luke & Leia. I probably would have held off on Luke's passing until IX, but it's a minor quibble.

 

[leiaorgana]

For me personally, where we meet Luke in TLJ lines up with what we eventually see and find out later on in the film about *why* he isolated himself and cut himself off from the force. It felt like a very real depiction of someone dealing with extreme P.T.S.D from his trauma over what happened with the Jedi school he was creating and responsible for and the grief and guilt he was feeling over the destruction and loss of that and from what he nearly did to his own nephew through his brief fear of another Vader being in his family and from the darkness that he saw in Ben from Palpatine’s/Snoke’s manipulation of him and Leia also had those same exact worries about Ben in “Bloodline” and “Aftermath: Life Debt”.

That whole scene between Ben and Luke that people claim is ooc for him when Luke raised his lightsaber to Ben when he was sleeping and how it’s described by both of them in different ways absolutely plays on the unreliable narrator trope and it’s up to the audience to decide which version you believe and what really happened. You have to remember that Kylo/Ben was also trying to manipulate Rey into coming to him when he was telling her about what happened to him that night and that yes, it was obviously traumatic for him too to wake up in the middle of the night to see his Uncle wielding his lightsaber over him to strike but it was just a fleeting moment of doubt and fear for Luke who has his own baggage over his own father/heritage and everything that Vader has done and has to live with the guilt of the mistake he almost made that makes him an entirely more interesting character. That entire scene is clearly a play on “If you could go back in time and kill baby Hitler would you?” Luke had a moment of weakness where his fear got the better of him but eventually his compassion for his Nephew/family won out and he conquered that fear and to me that’s an incredibly “Luke Skywalker” thing to do.

If anything, I take more umbrage with Luke’s depiction in TBOBF than I do TLJ. That felt more out of character for him than where he ends up in TLJ.

 

[BrianL]

For me personally, where we meet Luke in TLJ lines up with what we eventually see and find out later on in the film about *why* he isolated himself and cut himself off from the force. It felt like a very real depiction of someone dealing with extreme P.T.S.D from his trauma over what happened with the Jedi school he was creating and responsible for and the grief and guilt he was feeling over the destruction and loss of that and from what he nearly did to his own nephew through his brief fear of another Vader being in his family and from the darkness that he saw in Ben from Palpatine’s/Snoke’s manipulation of him and Leia also had those same exact worries about Ben in “Bloodline” and “Aftermath: Life Debt”.

That whole scene between Ben and Luke that people claim is ooc for him when Luke raised his lightsaber to Ben when he was sleeping and how it’s described by both of them in different ways absolutely plays on the unreliable narrator trope and it’s up to the audience to decide which version you believe and what really happened. You have to remember that Kylo/Ben was also trying to manipulate Rey into coming to him when he was telling her about what happened to him that night and that yes, it was obviously traumatic for him too to wake up in the middle of the night to see his Uncle wielding his lightsaber over him to strike but it was just a fleeting moment of doubt and fear for Luke who has his own baggage over his own father/heritage and everything that Vader has done and has to live with the guilt of the mistake he almost made that makes him an entirely more interesting character. That entire scene is clearly a play on “If you could go back in time and kill baby Hitler would you?” Luke had a moment of weakness where his fear got the better of him but eventually his compassion for his Nephew/family won out and he conquered that fear and to me that’s an incredibly “Luke Skywalker” thing to do.

If anything, I take more umbrage with Luke’s depiction in TBOBF than I do TLJ. That felt more out of character for him than where he ends up in TLJ.

You have explained it perfectly. Now, I will admit that maybe they should have fleshed that backstory out a little more in the film, given us a little more insight. I don't necessarily need it all spoon-fed, but that might have helped some who clearly interpreted it very negatively. It's not that Luke was ever going to strike Ben down in his sleep - it was a fleeting moment.

The Sequel Trilogy in general has a minor issue with connecting the dots or relying on outside material to fill in some gaps. It works fine for the fans who pay attention to that stuff, but can be a little obtuse for those who don't. This is why I am a big proponent of doing Episode VII, VIII, & IX Special Editions! They could add a deleted scene or two, massage a little dailogue, and clean up a little VFX. In fact, they should do this for the entire saga. Think of the potential!

 

[leiaorgana]

You have explained it perfectly. Now, I will admit that maybe they should have fleshed that backstory out a little more in the film, given us a little more insight. I don't necessarily need it all spoon-fed, but that might have helped some who clearly interpreted it very negatively. It's not that Luke was ever going to strike Ben down in his sleep - it was a fleeting moment.

The Sequel Trilogy in general has a minor issue with connecting the dots or relying on outside material to fill in some gaps. It works fine for the fans who pay attention to that stuff, but can be a little obtuse for those who don't. This is why I am a big proponent of doing Episode VII, VIII, & IX Special Editions! They could add a deleted scene or two, massage a little dailogue, and clean up a little VFX. In fact, they should do this for the entire saga. Think of the potential!

I’ll agree that a lot context and background info/story was filled in and elaborated on in the books and tie-ins that came out for the ST and that’s why there’s some holes that don’t make sense plot and motivation wise if you haven’t read them but again you’re right in saying that that info shouldn’t have to come from another place and could fall into “cash grab” territory for those that want the full picture when it should be made clearer in the actual film.

The Phasma tie-in book is actually why I like Phasma as much as I do now because it actually makes her a fully formed character and gives an insight into why she is the way she is. It also originally introduced Brendol Hux and Vi Moradi into canon and expanded on the relationship between Armitage and Phasma in an increasingly interesting way that adds to Brendol’s appearance in The Mandalorian.

 

[BrianL]

I’ll agree that a lot context and background info/story was filled in and elaborated on in the books and tie-ins that came out for the ST and that’s why there’s some holes that don’t make sense plot and motivation wise if you haven’t read them but again you’re right in saying that that info shouldn’t have to come from another place and could fall into “cash grab” territory for those that want the full picture when it should be made clearer in the actual film.

The Phasma tie-in book is actually why I like Phasma as much as I do now because it actually makes her a fully formed character and gives an insight into why she is the way she is. It also originally introduced Brendol Hux and Vi Moradi into canon and expanded on the relationship between Armitage and Phasma in an increasingly interesting way that adds to Brendol’s appearance in The Mandalorian.

Yeah, it's one thing to include Phasma's backstory in a book becuase her caharcter in the movies doesn't really need it. The major plot-points though - that's where they were just a little clunky with it. I'm not sure people would have liked it any better, but I have heard some misinterpretations of what is on screen.

 

[leiaorgana]

Also just want to quickly add on while I think about it - Luke isolating himself away in TLJ is clearly his own form of self punishment for the guilt that he feels for his failings with the Jedi Academy he was building and his failing of Leia and Ben just like Obi Wan isolated himself away on Tatooine for all of those years and cut himself off from the force due to his belief of him failing Anakin. They both mirror each other perfectly (It’s like poetry. It rhymes as George would say) but one’s absolutely hated by the fandom and the other is applauded for good storytelling

 

[BrianL]

Also just want to quickly add on while I think about it - Luke isolating himself away in TLJ is clearly his own form of self punishment for the guilt that he feels for his failings with the Jedi Academy he was building and his failing of Leia and Ben just like Obi Wan isolated himself away on Tatooine for all of those years and cut himself off from the force due to his belief of him failing Anakin. They both mirror each other perfectly (It’s like poetry. It rhymes as George would say) but one’s absolutely hated by the fandom and the other is applauded for good storytelling

Right, and don't forget Yoda too. Running off into exile is pretty normal protocol for Jedi.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

Y’all will really hate me after this. Rumor out there currently on a few sites saying Lucasfilm is being potentially shopped around to possibly sell. Disney needs cash to pay Comcast, and with all the flops lately, they just don’t have the liquidity to be able to justify this large spend. Igor is trying to find a way to raise the cash.

I have no clue if this is true, but it certainly may be interesting if there is any truth to it.

 

[BrianL]

Y’all will really hate me after this. Rumor out there currently on a few sites saying Lucasfilm is being potentially shopped around to possibly sell. Disney needs cash to pay Comcast, and with all the flops lately, they just don’t have the liquidity to be able to justify this large spend. Igor is trying to find a way to raise the cash.

I have no clue if this is true, but it certainly may be interesting if there is any truth to it.

Well, that article you had posted said a sale was unlikely. Also, that rumor relies on some incorrect valuations. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in it.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

I believe you are correct, seems it came from Kamran Pasha who seems to be the same dude that predicted the last SW Celebration was going to be KKs swan song as she prepared to leave her job. That obviously did not happen instead she announced a bunch of new Star Wars projects that may or may not ever occur. Her track record is not very good on announcing movies and then actually getting made.

 

[BrianL]

I believe you are correct, seems it came from Kamran Pasha who seems to be the same dude that predicted the last SW Celebration was going to be KKs swan song as she prepared to leave her job. That obviously did not happen instead she announced a bunch of new Star Wars projects that may or may not ever occur. He track record is not very good on announcing movies and them actually getting made.

Now that is definitely true. Kennedy has had trouble actuallly getting projects through. I think they are announcing way too early, trying to capture the hype, but then it doesn't work out. That happens all the time of course, but we usually don't hear about it because they don't say anything until things are solid.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

The bottom line is you value your on opinions and people that agree with you, and don't value mine. Your examples are no more flushed out than mine are, but you are just incredibly closed minded to others opinions. The moment I say anything you have read before anywhere else you say it's "trite" or "parroting" someone else. How about the reason everyone says Leia's force flight looked like Mary Poppins is simply because you know what the effects were pretty terrible and yes, well she looked a lot like Mary Poppins. When people all hated New Coke in 1985 did the executives at Coke say well they are just "parroting" what they heard other people say?

I will try one more time on why me and approximately 1/2 of the fan base doesn't like about how Luke was treated by Rian Johnson:

1. We all wanted the Wise, All Knowing, All Powerful, Grand Master Jedi Luke Skywalker. We didn't get that at all! We all knew Luke had to die and to pass the torch to the younger generation at some point, but this was just handled terribly in every possible way. We all wanted to see Luke train a promising young Rey, as she struggled to grasp all of his wisdom and understanding of the force. We didn't get that at all. Luke was a childhood hero of hundreds of millions kids and we wanted to see him respected and admired and to have the majestic end to his story that he deserved. Star Wars is Luke Skywalker, always has been, and the majority of the fan base does not agree with how his character was handled. You can disagree with me on on this, but you cannot discount that probably 50+% of the fan base feels this way.

2. Luke as portrayed as the pessimistic, grumpy, jerk, who wanted to become a hermit and die alone, seems incredibly out of character for Luke. Luke was always the definition of the optimistic hero. He had an unwavering sense of justice & duty, and was hopeful to a fault. Luke may have exiled for a short time after the tragedy, but no way he would have abandoned all of his loved ones to die alone for 30 years. Luke left training with Yoda when everyone was telling him not to, just because he loved and cared for his friends. PTSD does not make someone's personality change completely. Would Luke has been a little more cynical after this event, yes definately.......however his entire personality did a 180 degree switch. Mark Hammill literally said the only way he could get his head around Johnson's version of Luke was to pretend it wasn't even Luke but another character entirely like "Jake Skywalker" instead of Luke.

3. Luke would not have run away and hid after he realized what Ben was becoming. He would have died trying to redeem the nephew he loved. If Luke saw the redeeming quality in Vader a mass murderer, who he had zero relationship with before some brief interactions, he certainly would not have given up on Ben so easily. Luke Skywalker is hopes and dreams and optimistic to a fault. He would have been too optimistic and attempted to convince Ben to see the error of his ways.

4. Luke would have never contemplated killing Ben while he was sleeping, even for a split second. Luke tells Obi-Wan that he could not bring himself to kill his father, a man he barely knew. His only experience with Vader at all was getting his butt kicked by him. He wouldn't kill a mass murder standing right in front of him who was trying to kill him, when it would have been clear self defense. However, he is ready to kill Ben due to him might possibly someday becoming a bad guy? He loved Ben, and loved his mother. Had spent many years fostering and building a beautiful relationship with Ben based on love and mutual respect. Then he's just gonna kill him in his sleep? This is wrong in every single way, and departs from everything Luke was as a Character in the OT. Luke would have been wiser, more cautious, and even a little more cynical over time, but your morals don't do a 180 change in life. Luke Skywalker would have never even considered even for a fleeting moment the defenseless murder of his beloved nephew.

5. Luke tells way too many jokes in the ST. Luke is not a jokester and never has been really. Jokes are Han's thing. Luke was not quick witted and silver tongued like Han, and these joke dialogues were out of place for Luke's character imho.

6. Luke greatly respected the majestic weapon of he Jedi. No way, no how, no chance under the sun that he would just chunk it off a cliff. Why would Luke not have done this? He was the eternal optimist. He probably would have seen this as a cosmic sign that he needed to train Rey and pass the torch to this new young hungry Jedi that was full of good and potential. No way he disrespects the sacred weapon of the Jedi Like that. I am a huge archery guy. I love and practice all forms of Archery. I have been shooting Archery gear since I was 4-5 years old when a beloved uncle gave me a crappy kids recurve. My kids (3) are all accomplished archers. One of my son's is a state champion and still holds the record score at his school in the NASP (National Archery In Schools Program). This would be the equivalent of me taking a 1958 Bear Kodiak Special hand signed by Fred Bear himself and chunking it off a cliff. It would never happen with me, nor would it ever happen with Luke either.

7. I understand what Rian Johnson was trying to do, but he just failed miserably at it. He wanted to show Luke as a fallen character. Even when a character falls the real version of them (hopes, dreams, optimism, love) is still present under a shell of pain. If Rian wanted to do more of a fallen Luke he needed to build that more and show more than one terrible event that made him this way. Walter White in Breaking Bad is a great example of this done correctly. Walter slowly and methodically with years and years of bad choices turned into the criminal mastermind he is at the end of the show. Even in the bitter end with Walter White, we know beyond a shadow of doubt he did all of that terrible stuff in an effort to help his loved ones. He was still the same guy, even in the bitter end. He does everything in his power to save Hank, and is willing to do anything to save Hank. He is willing to give away every dollar he has to save Hank. He loves Hank so much and is devastated when he is unable to save him, and in the end Walter is what he always was a family man.

8. Luke Skywalker was the moral compass in episodes 4-5-6, this moral compass came from upbringing and his bloodline. Anakin was raised to be good and help who needed helping. Anakin's mother installed values in him. Luke was raised in the same vein with love, optimism, and respect for others. Your moral compass does not suddenly break, even if you have PTSD.

9. Luke would not have given up and exiled to die alone, he would have looked for a new way. He realized the Jedi were wrong in many areas, and he would have dedicated his life to creating a new and better version of the Jedi accounting for the errors of their past. He would have worked hand and hand with Rey to help her and guide her in rebuilding a new and improved version of the Jedi. He would not have quit to go live life in exile fishing and drinking green milk from random animals tit he found. This is not Luke Skywalker, like Mark Hammill perfectly said this was Jake Skywalker, not Luke.

10. Luke Skywalker is whoever Rian Johnson tells him he is right? No, I reject that. Han was originally supposed to say I love you back to Leia. However, Harrison Ford who had basically become Han Solo in every way knew that was not Han, and said "I know" instead. When an actor learns the nuances of a role and has been that character for years, they simply are the character. I reject what Rian Johnson did to Luke, and I trust Luke Skywalker (Mark Hammill) instead. Rian Johnson is a prick that wants to "subvert peoples expectations" above and beyond all else. He does not care about Star Wars and he darn sure doesn't care about Luke Skywalker. He said on camera his perfect results for a movie is for 50% of the people to love it and for 50% to hate it. He certainly accomplished his goal there! His movie has been described by hundreds of publications as "divisive" and credited for "splitting the fan base". I reject what Rian did to Luke, because I know beyond any shadow of doubt, that Rian Johnson didn't even understand who Luke Was........and didn't care to learn.

 

[BrianL]

Well, thank you at least for fleshing out your arguments, though most of your points are basicallt, ""Luke would never...." I will admit that I think they should have fleshed out the backstory with his failed Jedi academy a bit more - absolutely yes - but I don't think that considering the whole, that any of it was unreasonable. What's the big deal with the lightsaber throw? He wanted to make a point, and he didn't hurt it in any way. You say that when a character falls that the original version of them is still in there - well, that's exactly wha tthe movie shows. His old self DOES come out and he saves his friends. The thing about TLJ is that it doesn't subvert anything - that is a lie that Kylo Ren tells Rey. That is even a lie that Luke tells himself. At the end of the day, Luke Skywalker does show up with a laser sword to save the day.

Also, you say that "Star Wars is Luke Skywalker," but I will disagree with you there. In fact, I think the split may very well be along the lines of those who loved Luke int he OT and those who, like me, thought he was kind of a goon. He was never all that spectacular, you know, so I don't get the expectation that he should become such a great and all-powerful Jedi. He was a whiny kid who wouldn't listen to anybody - at least that's my view. You admit that half the fanbase feels one way and half the other - neither is right. Rian certianly IS a fan of Star Wars and does care about it.

Yeah, TLJ could have been fleshed out more, and maybe could have pulled back on the jokes a little (though I like a lot of humor in my Star Wars), but I just don't think it was so far off base. Luke felt like he failed, and like previous Jedi before him, he retreated to let others take the lead. Yoda and Obi-Wan did, and they're ten times the Jedi that Luke would ever hope to be.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

I say "Luke would never" a lot because Mark Hammill (Luke Skywalker) said 20 different versions of that same phrase until the gag order came down that he had to shut up. I believe Mark is ultimately just over it and wants to move on with his life, and yes he did play nice and makeup with Rian Johnson after he got his hand slapped. However I trust years of panels from comic-cons, interviews, and tons of dialogue on the subject more than the time or two he played nice with Rian. It is very obvious if you are willing to be open minded that Mark Hammill (Luke Skywalker), George Lucas (Creator or Luke Skywalker), and most of the fans (Fans of Luke Skywalker) do not care for how Luke was handled in TLJ. The movie split the fan base for a reason, and Star Wars has not really recovered since.

I also saw photos of Luke with a Red X over his face in the Disney Lucasfilms office. I think there was a conteous effort by Disney creatives to dis-assemble Luke in an effort to make room for the new characters to be loved and cherished like Luke was in the OT. "The past must die, kill it if you have to" remember?

 

[BrianL]

I say "Luke would never" a lot because Mark Hammill (Luke Skywalker) said 20 different versions of that same phrase until the gag order came down that he had to shut up. I believe Mark is ultimately just over it and wants to move on with his life, and yes he did play nice and makeup with Rian Johnson after he got his hand slapped. However I trust years of panels from comic-cons, interviews, and tons of dialogue on the subject more than the time or two he played nice with Rian. It is very obvious if you are willing to be open minded that Mark Hammill (Luke Skywalker), George Lucas (Creator or Luke Skywalker), and most of the fans (Fans of Luke Skywalker) do not care for how Luke was handled in TLJ. The movie split the fan base for a reason, and Star Wars has not really recovered since.

I also saw photos of Luke with a Red X over his face in the Disney Lucasfilms office. I think there was a conteous effort by Disney creatives to dis-assemble Luke in an effort to make room for the new characters to be loved and cherished like Luke was in the OT. "The past must die, kill it if you have to" remember?

Wll, Mark's not the ultimate arbiter of the character. Again, a lot of fans have no problem with it, so why are they so wrong? I do agree it could have been explained better. The thing is, even if Mark disagrees with it, he's not angry about it nor on some crusade to lambast it constantly. It's just maybe not what he would have done - at the end of the day, it's just movie.

Again, that "The past must die," line is a a LIE. The movie intentionally proves it so. It was embracing the past the ended up being the right decision. That all happens IN THE MOVIE.

 

[leiaorgana]

It’s not that people here don’t value your opinions on the matter and I’m sorry if you were made to feel that way by this discussion. I can understand *why* you feel the way that you do about it but don’t necessarily agree with it myself or agree that some of the “evidence” you provided had any relevance on what was being discussed at the time. It’s just that the way you were trying to get your opinions across was very forceful and off putting (you spoke down to and tried to belittle me several times and I don’t appreciate that) and the way you were going about it felt like, to me at least anyway, like you were acting like you spoke for everyone who’s a fan of Star Wars with what you were saying so definitively here and other people here were just trying to get the point across to you that there’s actually a lot more people out there in the real world than you realise that don’t actually believe or agree with that rhetoric about Luke/Rey/the sequels etc.

You keep saying “50,000 people this” and “half the fan base that” who all think and agree with these specific arguments when you can’t substantiate that because a good chuck of people who are fans of and like the franchise aren’t even publicly engaging with it in that kind of way. Of course people who all think the same way about something or have the same opinions are going to flock together and seek each other out where they can and carve out a place on the internet where they can all validate each others criticisms and dislikes and in turn feel like the majority by doing that and through the algorithms bringing up similar content to what they’re already posting about so that’s all that they end up seeing about it. As I previously said, there’s also a lot YouTubers out there that don’t even really believe the snake oil their selling but just do it because they enjoy stirring things up and causing the divide in the fandom and know it’s going to get people hate-watching them or they know that appealing to a certain demographic of fans is going to get them the views they want and in turn keep bringing the money in for them too.

Not everyone who is a fan is going to be interviewed on their thoughts and have them published and nor are they going to be on the internet talking about SW 24/7 or making video content or podcasts for it etc so there’s a lot of voices, thoughts and opinions on the subject that really aren’t being heard so you can’t say that everyone thinks this or that way about the franchise and the direction it’s going in and be so black and white about it because you don’t actually know that for a fact.

There’s A LOT of valid criticisms out there about the mess that the sequels were and what happened behind the scenes making them that I absolutely agree with but there’s a lot that don’t make sense if you watched the films or hold any weight realistically when you think it through logically and realise that not everything is always going to cater to you specifically.

Everyone complained that The Force Awakens was too rooted in nostalgia and was too similar to A New Hope and that it didn’t take enough risks when it originally came out and people were expecting something new and exciting from SW with it and then what happened when Lucasfilm took a chance on Rian Johnson and made something different that took the franchise in an unexpected direction? Everyone cried about it and ripped it to shreds because it wasn’t what they’d been headcanoning for the last 40 years and then we ended up with the mess that was The Rise of Skywalker with Disney frantically trying to course correct with that film and then giving in to too much fanservice again and them having to scramble on how to change a major part of the story that they’d originally been leading up to and planning to tell due to the unfortunate real life tragedy of losing Carrie. They absolutely could have executed the sequels in a better way and had them all properly planned out before going into production and maybe taking a longer gap between films and having consistent direction could have aided in that and stopped them from being all over the place at times but they didn’t and that’s what caused them a lot of problems in the end.