LOVE or HATE FP+ Anyone's mind been changed ??

[Mikie]

Because I'm not the WDW Marketing Department. If someone asks me for advice/thoughts/opinions on WDW, I'm going to tell them what I see as the good and the bad.


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I didn't tell you to do marketing for them. . . I just asked why wouldn't it be helpful to say "Yes, you can have a fun trip to Disney and here's how" if you know the answer to that question? I actually don't think I'm arguing with you because while in this thread it looks like you're explaining the "hate" side of why I love it or hate it, I thought you had had type of change of heart because you miss your old vacation style but have found a new way to vacation that you think you're going to love?? I initially thought that thread was tongue-in-cheek, but given the great detail you've gone to and your personal assertions that you really mean it, I'm taking you at your word. I think I'm agreeing with you that it's valuable to discuss the negatives *and the workarounds*. . . is that not your stance?

 

[Laketravis]

I didn't tell you to do marketing for them. . . I just asked why wouldn't it be helpful to say "Yes, you can have a fun trip to Disney and here's how" if you know the answer to that question?

No, you asked "....Why isn't it helpful to tell them that everyone -can- get an awesome experience, and here's how?..." and I would never personally assume that everyone can have an awesome experience unless I was paid to do so and it was my job to say so.


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[Cormoran]

I didn't tell you to do marketing for them. . . I just asked why wouldn't it be helpful to say "Yes, you can have a fun trip to Disney and here's how" if you know the answer to that question? I actually don't think I'm arguing with you because while in this thread it looks like you're explaining the "hate" side of why I love it or hate it, I thought you had had type of change of heart because you miss your old vacation style but have found a new way to vacation that you think you're going to love?? I initially thought that thread was tongue-in-cheek, but given the great detail you've gone to and your personal assertions that you really mean it, I'm taking you at your word. I think I'm agreeing with you that it's valuable to discuss the negatives *and the workarounds*. . . is that not your stance?

For my first trip to WDW, I used Birnbaum's book and the Unofficial Guide. IMO Birnbaum's was a complete waste of time, because it was a thinly disguised advertisement for visiting WDW. On the other hand, the Unofficial Guide allowed me to maximize the trip because the guide provided both the good points and bad points of a WDW vacation. If I'm planning to travel anywhere, I want to know everything, not just the propagandized version of a destination.

 

[Shaden]

Because I'm not the WDW Marketing Department. If someone asks me for advice/thoughts/opinions on WDW, I'm going to tell them what I see as the good and the bad, what to take advantage of and what to avoid, what to buy and what not to waste their money on, etc. and trust that they will draw their own conclusions.


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Pretty much exactly this ^^^

I didn't tell you to do marketing for them. . . I just asked why wouldn't it be helpful to say "Yes, you can have a fun trip to Disney and here's how" if you know the answer to that question? I actually don't think I'm arguing with you because while in this thread it looks like you're explaining the "hate" side of why I love it or hate it, I thought you had had type of change of heart because you miss your old vacation style but have found a new way to vacation that you think you're going to love?? I initially thought that thread was tongue-in-cheek, but given the great detail you've gone to and your personal assertions that you really mean it, I'm taking you at your word. I think I'm agreeing with you that it's valuable to discuss the negatives *and the workarounds*. . . is that not your stance?

Its not helpful, not if you don't think they will !!! Read the PP's post, about how SHE KNOWS the people she is answering the question from. All Fuzzy offer'd was 'Well you should put the most positive spin on it. Focus on what is theoretically possible'. Lets follow that advice:

My very close friend, asks whether he should go to WDW: Hates everything Disney related, does not like non-thrill rides, despises putting much planning into a trip, does not like fireworks or shows or crowds, doesn't like spending a ton of money on dining, doesn't have any kids or a partner who feel any different. "Hey listen best buddy, I think you should go to WDW because you COULD have an awesome time. Its possible you will find bag full of gold and will become rich and love your trip !!!"

The fact that someone who KNOWS the people she is giving a response to is chastised by someone else who doesn't have a fricken CLUE who the people are who asked for advice, what they like etc, because the advice given wasn't positive enough about WDW and FP+, after starting out their chastisement talking about how people who are "anti-FP" tell others their experiences aren't accurate or downplay their perspectives is absolutely insane. Insane.

 

[MrInfinity]

A Serious question, how can you argue that one person sharing their view with friends is wrong because it isn't as positive as you would like, but you sharing a more positive view of WDW is great?

Its perfectly helpful to share with someone what you don't like or that you don't like something in general when they ask for help or advice. It's certainly more helpful then glossed over super fun time spin pretending there are no downsides to the new system or that everyone will get an awesome experience, or even that everyone -can- get an awesome experience.

I guess I look at it as socially awkward. L and S are going to Disney World, and presumably they assume they will love it. That is why they're going. So to go their local expert who presumably loves it too (after all she's been several times in 4 years)... and ask for advice... Should she lie? No, but I can't imagine a conversation about Disney World ending with... "Oh, you'll have some fun, I just wouldn't count on much of it coming from Disney World cuz it's nothing like it used to be. Fortunately for you, you've got that side-skip to Tampa and Gatorland so you should be okay and have a good trip overall". That's essentially her portrayal.

 

[Laketravis]

I actually don't think I'm arguing with you because while in this thread it looks like you're explaining the "hate" side of why I love it or hate it, I thought you had had type of change of heart because you miss your old vacation style but have found a new way to vacation that you think you're going to love??

See, this is the part that makes absolutely no sense to me at all. I've been complimentary about certain aspects of WDW and I've been critical about certain aspects of WDW. But because I'm NOT sprinkling the threads of the DIS with ONLY positive comments about WDW, I'm a "hater" who's had a "change of heart" ?????

I initially thought that thread was tongue-in-cheek, but given the great detail you've gone to and your personal assertions that you really mean it, I'm taking you at your word.

Sounds like you'll only be satisfied if the exercise in that thread has a positive spin and outcome? Otherwise, why would you have to take me at my word?


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[Shaden]

I guess I look at it as socially awkward. L and S are going to Disney World, and presumably they assume they will love it. That is why they're going. So to go their local expert who presumably loves it too (after all she's been several times in 4 years)... and then get told... "Oh, you'll have fun, don't get me wrong, just have some things do to outside Disney World, cuz you'll hit a point where you use up your 3 FastPasses, and then you really should just leave".

Should she lie? No, I don't think so.

I just can't imagine a conversation about Disney World ending with... "Oh, you'll have some fun, I just wouldn't count on much of it coming from Disney World cuz it's nothing like it used to be. Fortunately for you, you've got that side-skip to Tampa and Gatorland so you should be okay and have a good trip overall". That's essentially her portrayal.

Maybe Lucky really feels that way. Even if she does, then if asked for tips on how to have a good time at Disney World, to answer "go somewhere else" is kind of insulting to the person who came to you for advice.

How .... Lucky KNOWS these people. These people came to Lucky because A) They KNOW THEM, and when they like, what they enjoy, etc. and B) Lucky knows WDW, how it works, what systems are in place etc. How is it in ANY way insulting to offer an honest response. ? Insulting is doing anything else, someone coming to you for advice and you giving them anything other than the truth. Glossing over any of the issues, or potential problems they may face, or how system may not jive with their interests. Insulting is the response you suggested she should have given: rainbows and sunshine and happy happy joy joy thoughts.

 

[MrInfinity]

My very close friend, asks whether he should go to WDW: Hates everything Disney related, does not like non-thrill rides, despises putting much planning into a trip, does not like fireworks or shows or crowds, doesn't like spending a ton of money on dining, doesn't have any kids or a partner who feel any different.

If someone says... "I don't like crowds, rides, parades, or Disney movies, would you recommend I go to Disney World?" I would answer heck no. But this person was not asking if going to WDW was a good idea. She is going to Disney World, probably thinking she will have a wonderful time. She asked for help making her trip even better. Would you seriously answer... "You'll be okay, but you won't have nearly as good of a time as I used to, cuz the new system doesn't let you do very much in a day".

EDIT: Correction. If someone said they don't like crowds, rides, parades, or Disney movies, first I would ask... what about your kids -- do they like rides, parades, or Disney movies, and could you deal w crowds for a week? And then my recommendation might be very different depending on the answer to that.

 

[Mikie]

No, you asked "....Why isn't it helpful to tell them that everyone -can- get an awesome experience, and here's how?..." and I would never personally assume that everyone can have an awesome experience unless I was paid to do so and it was my job to say so.


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Hmmm. . . So I'm not sure which one of my underlying assumptions is wrong here:

A) The DIS is a place where people want tips on planning a Disney vacation go to ask questions and people who have experience and like to talk about Disney provide answers. OR

B) Everyone who vacations at Disney has the potential of having a great trip (but may need planning, tips, guidebooks, blogs to lay it out in a way that fits them - just like people have needed those tools for the last x years)

I'm filtering my whole time on the boards and any friends request for advice on their DISNEY vacation on the notion that the person wants to go to Disney and is looking for tips. If that's the wrong approach, then I guess that explains why I don't understand the backlash against explaining how to get the most out of the chosen destination.

 

[Luckybee]

Omg..I don't even know where to start. First, I made an error in my post they are going in May not March. I think it was my insomnia last night and I was worried about working this morning...lol.

 

[Mikie]

See, this is the part that makes absolutely no sense to me at all. I've been complimentary about certain aspects of WDW and I've been critical about certain aspects of WDW. But because I'm NOT sprinkling the threads of the DIS with ONLY positive comments about WDW, I'm a "hater" who's had a "change of heart" ?????



Sounds like you'll only be satisfied if the exercise in that thread has a positive spin and outcome? Otherwise, why would you have to take me at my word?


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I'm so confused. . . Genuinely. . . I lazily used the word "hater" not to call you a name but because of the love/hate title of this thread and fact that, of course, none of us share one mind here, but there's generally a group of people explaining the negatives of FP+ (I thought you were in that group) and there's generally a group of people expressing what they like about FP+ (a group of people you seem to post counter-points to, not agreement)

I call it a change of heart because I thought you had mostly long expressed dissatisfaction or stood on the side of a group of people who express FP+ dislike. But in your planning thread, you're saying you felt forced into it, but are planning a trip (2 trips?) that you expect to be fun/productive. I said "take you at your word" because I think people have accused you (in that thread?) of not *really* planning a good vacation, but spending all this time and money to intentionally have a negative experience and post an "I told you so". . . I'm saying I take you at your word that you're genuinely trying to have a fun and productive trip, not go through an elaborate exercise just to win an argument with a bunch of Internet strangers.

I'm already extremely satisfied with the exercise in that thread, as you've laid out specific goals, specific strategies, and a promise to share results. I look forward to hearing about it. I sincerely don't understand why it feels like you and I are arguing. . .

 

[Luckybee]

Hi Lucky,
Thanks for this post. It resets the conversation nicely (along w Ariel's)...

You know, it's certainly presented that way. Such that you can have a good time, sure. Maybe you don't like rides! Someone who doesn't like rides could certainly have a great time using FP+. Or... maybe you like to shop! Or... maybe you like to stand in lines w your nose buried in your phone for hours, and maybe you like being on hold with Disney tech support. There are lots of reasons one might have a good time -- right? But it's never because... You'll have a good time going on lots of stuff because of FP+. All the good times are presented "in spite of" FP+.

You make an example, right here: Fp+ wont work for them to do a multitude of rides because I know S and she has as little patience as I do. See? Because she's impatient, she won't like FP+. a.k.a., unless you're okay with long waits, FP+ will be inherently something an impatient person would not like. That's not right. You can both like short lines, and like FP+, because FP+ helps you to get short lines. You have to remember that most guests always waited standby. So this is a big +3 for almost all guests. I get that it's not for you and me, but for most guests, like L and S, it is a +3 over what they would have thought.


Well, okay. But, when someone comes out to ask for advice, to share that you don't like it is not helpful. Or to share that one cant like it unless you're patient and don't mind lines isn't helpful. Many impatient people, myself included, find great benefit in it.


Ok so why do you think they'll hate FP+? You acknowledge right up front their challenge is not FP+, it's that they're going in March, and you -- like me -- make a point of going in slower times. So right off the bat, your history of going for 4 hours and getting thru a ton would not be doable for them on spring break. Why do you spin this as a FastPass fault? Why not... Oh man, it'll be so busy that week. I used to go on slow weeks and ride a ton. ? Since there will be wall to wall people, here's what I'd do... in the mornings, the crowds will be going here... you go... there. And....


Why? If I was going, I'd ride a ton of stuff in every park. I just would. I would not accept "a few rides". That is craziness. I'm not going on vacation to ride a few things, and I won't. I just don't understand why you're selling them on getting so little done... It's like you want them to not like their experience before they've even gone. No it's not helping them to "lower expectations" ahead of time, because your expectations are vastly different. You came from a time of FP-, and you learned a very specific way of touring that most guests never did.


If she's been to a Six Flags, she probly gets standby lines. This is what most people will expect as standard.


I think you're getting too complicated. Information overload? No wonder you think it's overly planned. Look at all the stuff you're inundating these newbies with.

Why aren't you presenting this as... Look most lines are standby, but it's pretty cool because of their new system, you can pick 3 in advance and go right to the front of the line! All you do is download this app, and pick them like this... and then you can tweak the times... or the rides... like this... pretty cool, huh!? Oh... and one suggestion-- try to pick them sooner than later, cuz by about two weeks before, the rides will start getting picked over. Here let's just do it right now I can get you some cool ones! Yes... exclamation point, and several smilies because you now get to sit down w them and tell them all about Everest, Dinosaur, or all the rides you love. It's that simple. You could be sharing magic but you're sharing doom and gloom. Now FP+ is a benefit they'll look forward to instead of a chore they have to analyze.


Alright, but to me, Disney World is an awesome, magical place that I loved as a kid, loved as a teen, and now share w my kids and love seeing thru their eyes. You seem to be so obsessed with the structure of FP+ and how it's not FP- that you've forgotten the fun. Just look at all your advice: Crowds. Lines. Waits. Problems. Find other things to do. Why do you think they'll only "all in all have a good vacation"... why is your instinct anything short of "You're going to Disney World -- I'm so jealous you'll have an amazing time!" They probably WILL.

We're going to be there with them for part of the trip. They decided to take this trip because of us coaxing and cajoling over the yrs. I am NOT going to lie/fib, whatever you wish to call it and imho that is what I'd be doing if I didn't give my friends an honest opinion. I convinced them in the past that slow season was the time to go because there were little to no lines. They apparently made their plans to go prior to getting our update from Sept and were surprising us by going down at the same time as us. So you're suggesting we show up, and when confronted with the new norm in standby lines, I say what ....oops??? Nope not happening. I don't make it a point to lie to friends. They don't tend to do amusement parks (other than Canada's Wonderland), preferring more beach holidays. I KNOW if they spend hours and hours in line they wont be happy. So I am helping them to have an amazing time by giving them a taste of Disney/and Universal but still giving them enough outside the parks so that they don't come home saying omg the lines/waits were awful !
Perhaps you didn't know this but we were not power fp- users when you say I came from a time of.... we were actually very relaxed in the parks, didn't care if we got the mountains in, as long as we got to ride a number of rides without long lines and went at our leisure picking up fp's along the way. I cannot and will not in good conscience leave out the bad stuff that I know is there for people that I know well. I still believe they will enjoy Disney, but I also believe that if they go in expecting what you are suggesting I'll be disowned as a friend because that isn't how they'll see it if the parks are like they were in Sept. and if they aren't then they will be pleasantly surprised.
And I would not ,ever, ever send anyone I liked to Gatorland (or even someone I didn't like

 

[Luckybee]

You quoted Fuzzy, but I agreed with his post (well, maybe not the smilies and exclamation points because I'm unlikely to talk that way. . . ), so I hope it's ok that I jump in. It must be a matter of outlook. . . If I were a newbie and my expert friend said "you CAN'T do a lot of fun things at Disney anymore, here's where you should go instead", it ends the conversation. Having them say "you can't have a trip identical to what I've been telling you about my past trips in the same way I achieved them before, but here's what you CAN do. . ." helps them plan a great Disney trip that still includes LOTS of attractions and is NOT reduced to 3 rides and shopping. There's still plenty of room for "here are the pitfalls to avoid or work around" (a discussion of the negatives) without falsely telling someone that Disney is by definition full of long lines and minimal attractions accomplished. Why isn't it helpful to tell them that everyone -can- get an awesome experience, and here's how? Isn't that why they asked for advice?

This is assuming a person who asked for the help by saying "I want to go to Disney - can you help me plan a great trip?" Which may be a very different answer from "I want to take a vacation, do you recommend Disney?" Perhaps that's a bad assumption on my part. . .

Sorry but I don't believe that in current conditions that "everyone" can get an awesome experience. I do believe that for some doing D alone might be perfect. But not for everyone !

 

[MrInfinity]

We're going to be there with them for part of the trip. They decided to take this trip because of us coaxing and cajoling over the yrs. I am NOT going to lie/fib, whatever you wish to call it and imho that is what I'd be doing if I didn't give my friends an honest opinion. I convinced them in the past that slow season was the time to go because there were little to no lines. They apparently made their plans to go prior to getting our update from Sept and were surprising us by going down at the same time as us. So you're suggesting we show up, and when confronted with the new norm in standby lines, I say what ....oops??? Nope not happening. I don't make it a point to lie to friends. They don't tend to do amusement parks (other than Canada's Wonderland), preferring more beach holidays. I KNOW if they spend hours and hours in line they wont be happy. So I am helping them to have an amazing time by giving them a taste of Disney/and Universal but still giving them enough outside the parks so that they don't come home saying omg the lines/waits were awful !

Perhaps you didn't know this but we were not power fp- users when you say I came from a time of.... we were actually very relaxed in the parks, didn't care if we got the mountains in, as long as we got to ride a number of rides without long lines and went at our leisure picking up fp's along the way. I cannot and will not in good conscience leave out the bad stuff that I know is there for people that I know well. I still believe they will enjoy Disney, but I also believe that if they go in expecting what you are suggesting I'll be disowned as a friend because that isn't how they'll see it if the parks are like they were in Sept. and if they aren't then they will be pleasantly surprised.

This is somewhat different than you presented it the first time. I have much less objection to this (not that my opinion matters). So ya know. Here you're saying more that your friends prefer more beach time and are just wanting a taste of Disney, not so much a Disney trip they booked where you're saying don't go. I think FP+ does lend itself very much to these quick in-and-out, 4-hour jaunts, especially given they don't like rope drop. Again. I feel more at ease. Sorry for coming on so strong.

And I would not ,ever, ever send anyone I liked to Gatorland (or even someone I didn't like

 

[Mikie]

Sooooo. . . 2000+ posts and the least contentious takeaway is "no gatorland"? I've not done much in Orlando outside of WDW, so it's good to know what to cross off the list!

 

[MrInfinity]

Sooooo. . . 2000+ posts and the least contentious takeaway is "no gatorland"? I've not done much in Orlando outside of WDW, so it's good to know what to cross off the list!

You know, I've been trying to decide between Gatorland and Universal, and I can't get a good feeling for which is better. Everything I read seems to indicate it's about 50/50.

 

[Laketravis]

I call it a change of heart because I thought you had mostly long expressed dissatisfaction or stood on the side of a group of people who express FP+ dislike. . .

I understand. And I've always assumed that anyone would understand my position, which is probably a fatal error.

But I believe that someone can point out positive or negative aspects of anything without being classified as either liking or disliking something. Financial and industry analysts (good ones) do it all the time, they point out strengths and weaknesses. Doing so does not carry along with it an implicit like or dislike. Audits work the same way, both financial and managerial, they point out strengths and weaknesses but doing so doesn't imply if the auditors liked or disliked something......

MM+/FP+ is a system. It has no emotion. I try to look at that system with no emotion as well and see weaknesses in that system that have immediate impact and some that I speculate have long term impact. But I also see strengths in that system and want to further explore if those strengths will allow me to leverage both time and money and derive the same if not more enjoyment as we have before.

Of course we all get on these boards and have a good time kidding with each other and debating with each other on a much lighter level and use words like hate or like or love or never. But on a fundamental level WDW is a business and when I engage with a business I try do so from a business standpoint and not an emotional one.

That's why I said I'm not the WDW Marketing Department. Marketing departments appeal to emotion, not facts. If someone asks me for advice on visiting WDW, I'm not going to try to appeal to their emotions by painting a picture of them having a wonderful time because frankly I don't know what it takes for anyone besides me to have a wonderful time and even then I'm not always sure.


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[bperk3]

I think FP+ system is great. Guarantee me a few rides that I know I will want and then I can be flexible with the rest of my day.

 

[Mikie]

I think FP+ system is great. Guarantee me a few rides that I know I will want and then I can be flexible with the rest of my day.

This is so awesome! I am frequently too wordy. I am thoroughly amused that buried in this outrageously long debate thread are these short, to the point nuggets of sanity.

(The "sanity" not referring to the +\- opinion expressed, but the return to the root question of the thread. AND the implied "insanity" definitely includes my own participation)

 

[Luckybee]

You know, I've been trying to decide between Gatorland and Universal, and I can't get a good feeling for which is better. Everything I read seems to indicate it's about 50/50.

Ooooh and we were just starting to get along