Looks like Universal win this round

[CFioren317]

Taking a step back from the numbers and looking at things from a high-level, the question really becomes how many people only go to EPCOT, HS, and AK because they get the last few days on their tickets for $10-$20 a day? I mean, if you go to WDW for let's say 6 days, because you figure it's only around $10 a day more for the 4th day on, then can you really do MK for 6 days? I doubt it. So what happens is that EPCOT, HS, and AK ride the coattails of MK for the most part.

I wonder how many people walk up to EPCOT and buy a one-day pass to go there? Now that's a number I would like to see. Compare the one-day pass totals for USF, IOA, EPCOT, AK, HS. I'm willing to bet the order would be something closer to that list.

And I love EPCOT...have all my life. But I'm 43 and if I took my 6 YO daughter to WDW and only went to EPCOT and skipped MK, I'd be thrown out of the family. Yet a few years back, when I had a chance to do two days at parks by myself, I chose IOA (Spiderman) and EPCOT (Nostalgia)

 

[jade1]

Taking a step back from the numbers and looking at things from a high-level, the question really becomes how many people only go to EPCOT, HS, and AK because they get the last few days on their tickets for $10-$20 a day? I mean, if you go to WDW for let's say 6 days, because you figure it's only around $10 a day more for the 4th day on, then can you really do MK for 6 days? I doubt it. So what happens is that EPCOT, HS, and AK ride the coattails of MK for the most part.

I wonder how many people walk up to EPCOT and buy a one-day pass to go there? Now that's a number I would like to see. Compare the one-day pass totals for USF, IOA, EPCOT, AK, HS. I'm willing to bet the order would be something closer to that list.

And I love EPCOT...have all my life. But I'm 43 and if I took my 6 YO daughter to WDW and only went to EPCOT and skipped MK, I'd be thrown out of the family. Yet a few years back, when I had a chance to do two days at parks by myself, I chose IOA (Spiderman) and EPCOT (Nostalgia)

Yep-thats what we were discussing. How many single day visits does WDW individual parks have, and how many does US/IOA have, and DL/CA.

 

[sethschroeder]

Agreed, but no matter what having the park entrance at 1,000 walkable feet apart at US and IOA (instead of 2 to 4 unwalkable miles), plus an actual back and forth attraction that is going to and from the same themed attractions is brilliant for a numbers game.

If WDW had all 4 gates at 1,000 feet apart at DTD-think of the inflation that would be.

We have bounced back and forth at UNI many times a day.

The only inflation I could see at Disney is going to Epcot just for dinner? Would anyone do that at US or IOA? I could see going to a park all morning, hitting a water park for the afternoon, and going from the boardwalk to Epcot just for dinner and maybe hitting 1 attraction because we are there...?

In the end I would suspect US and IOA will have very similar numbers as with the new Hogwarts express everyone who goes will want to ride it wont they? So even though people just go for the new HP they will still jump on the train and need to jump over to the other park. (But this right costs you more so....?)

 

[jade1]

Whats interesting is it will be even easier for WDW to know the actual numbers with MM+, but will they share that data?

 

[jade1]

The only inflation I could see at Disney is going to Epcot just for dinner? Would anyone do that at US or IOA? I could see going to a park all morning, hitting a water park for the afternoon, and going from the boardwalk to Epcot just for dinner and maybe hitting 1 attraction because we are there...?

In the end I would suspect US and IOA will have very similar numbers as with the new Hogwarts express everyone who goes will want to ride it wont they? So even though people just go for the new HP they will still jump on the train and need to jump over to the other park. (But this right costs you more so....?)

As others have said-it's all about the money (more than these fake attendance numbers)-so yes they have made a brilliant move IMO with a split HP connected by a HP attraction train. How many folks might go back and forth 5 or 10 times a day?

Point is more for inflating turn styles and therefore inaccurate actual attendance numbers.

I actually don't hold a 2nd park visit in a day against the numbers-just repeats to the same park. And the closer/more convenient they are-the more inflation.

 

[clsteve]

The only inflation I could see at Disney is going to Epcot just for dinner? Would anyone do that at US or IOA? I could see going to a park all morning, hitting a water park for the afternoon, and going from the boardwalk to Epcot just for dinner and maybe hitting 1 attraction because we are there...?

In the end I would suspect US and IOA will have very similar numbers as with the new Hogwarts express everyone who goes will want to ride it wont they? So even though people just go for the new HP they will still jump on the train and need to jump over to the other park. (But this right costs you more so....?)

Don't forget the mass exodus at AK in the afternoons - especially after the Parade. AK is the first Park most mention as a half-day Park before hopping to another (or vice versa), perhaps, as you said for an afternoon at WS in EPCOT, or DHS for a ride or 2 before Fantasmic, or an evening in MK. AK is the Park that may most inflate the numbers - makes sense why they want to add nighttime entertainment and another Land......

 

[jade1]

Don't forget the mass exodus at AK in the afternoons - especially after the Parade. AK is the first Park most mention as a half-day Park before hopping to another (or vice versa), perhaps, as you said for an afternoon at WS in EPCOT, or DHS for a ride or 2 before Fantasmic, or an evening in MK. AK is the Park that may most inflate the numbers - makes sense why they want to add nighttime entertainment and another Land......

True but AK has few inflated returns at least.

It may be a coat tale park-but why penalize WDW for making it it's own park and not an expanded land at an existing one.

If AK was a US park over there-the same thing would happen. Would we be down on US because they built AK? Or would we be saying how much more they have been improving?

Better yet, if the built a HP park instead of adding it to both current parks-would we be down on US because US and IOA were 1/2 day parks?

 

[clsteve]

True but AK has few inflated returns at least.

It may be a coat tale park-but why penalize WDW for making it it's own park and not an expanded land at an existing one.

Not sure about the penalty part, but it's why Avatar and the night show at AK makes business sense for TDO before doing anything with Star Wars. After 3pm, AK can be a ghost town. I seriously doubt that's what they planned and expected when they justified/built it. Unfortunately, beauty doesn't seem to keep people strolling around for a full day.

That's a lot of investment, continued YTY expense, and wasted footprint to be recognized as a half-day Park (gotta feed those beasts since you can't just turn them off like an animatronic at the end of the night...!).

Getting those first entry guests to stay in-Park instead of hopping is an additional few hours they have them captive to spend. Hence, Avatar and a sound business move.....

 

[jade1]

Not sure about the penalty part, but it's why Avatar and the night show at AK makes business sense for TDO before doing anything with Star Wars. After 3pm, AK can be a ghost town. I seriously doubt that's what they planned and expected when they justified/built it. Unfortunately, beauty doesn't seem to keep people strolling around for a full day.

That's a lot of investment, continued YTY expense, and wasted footprint to be recognized as a half-day Park (gotta feed those beasts since you can't just turn them off like an animatronic at the end of the night...!).

Getting those first entry guests to stay in-Park instead of hopping is an additional few hours they have them captive to spend. Hence, Avatar and a sound business move.....

Good points-and like I have been saying, there are cycles in this game. Hopefully it's not still us, but as we look at 1991 numbers-folks 20 years from now will be looking at 2016 numbers and seeing what went on back then.

The rest of your point is exactly what I meant by penalizing WDW. You call it a waste, when I'm saying they could have added an "AK" land off another park-like US/IOA did with HP. That is a much safer/cheaper bet-and folks would not be pointing at AK as a 1/2 park.

What do I care if AK is a 1/2 day? It's still better than crammed into another park IMO.

And we always knock out IOA by noon, and that's taking a cab over. US was even less-but are hoping HP will help with that one as well.

I prefer AK being it's own park, and would prefer HP was a 3rd park at US. But this way-they can avoid taking the risk, and offer us a less impressive product.

 

[MightyGitis]

As others have said-it's all about the money (more than these fake attendance numbers)-so yes they have made a brilliant move IMO with a split HP connected by a HP attraction train. How many folks might go back and forth 5 or 10 times a day? Point is more for inflating turn styles and therefore inaccurate actual attendance numbers. I actually don't hold a 2nd park visit in a day against the numbers-just repeats to the same park. And the closer/more convenient they are-the more inflation.

I was just reading in another thread that they are limiting rides on the train especially during peak times. Because it's not just a mode of transportation but also an attraction?

 

[Mad Hattered]

I was just reading in another thread that they are limiting rides on the train especially during peak times. Because it's not just a mode of transportation but also an attraction?

This is true. They will be limiting the back and forth during peak times, which will in turn, not over-inflate the multiple park entrances by an individual. Unless of course you get off the train in Diagon and walk back over to IOA.

 

[jade1]

I was just reading in another thread that they are limiting rides on the train especially during peak times. Because it's not just a mode of transportation but also an attraction?

Could well be-from UNI's perspective they would want everyone possible making the trip at least once for the extra revenue and getting 2 attendance hits for every one way run.

Plus off peak is when they will need the inflation.

The rest or the time folks will need to continue the walk around the main gates.

I wonder if your park pass gets denied after a ride during peak.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Yep. People aren't going to necessarily lengthen their visit to Orlando because they want to see Universal also, they might just carve out their week differently between the two resorts. Maybe even drop seeing one of the Disney parks. Maybe we'll see some action on fixing DHS because of this, seems like AK is already in the works.

This is us...if we're on a trip where we have the budget to do US/IOA and see both Potter areas, we wouldn't be making our trip longer. We'd do 2 MK days, 1 Epcot day, 1 AK/DHS day and 1 US/IOA day...and use arrival or departure day for visiting DTD. Taking more than a week off of work just isn't that feasible, but we have enough interest in Potter to take time away from Disney to go see it.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Sorry but reading is a dying art and partly why HP needs to stay relevant in new age media (Video Games foremost and Movies secondarily). Video Games are the new media delivery systems for stories as the depth continues to increase with graphic and control enhancements and the percentage of people who play increases with people in their 40's growing up playing video games.

Lego Harry Potter is quite a good video game, IMO. . My 8 year old nephew plays it, and the game is opening up his interest on the books/movies...just as he enjoys the Lego Star Wars games along with the movies.

I wouldn't underestimate the HP franchise.

 

[DOOM1001]

I wonder how many people walk up to EPCOT and buy a one-day pass to go there? Now that's a number I would like to see. Compare the one-day pass totals for USF, IOA, EPCOT, AK, HS. I'm willing to bet the order would be something closer to that list.

And I love EPCOT...have all my life. But I'm 43 and if I took my 6 YO daughter to WDW and only went to EPCOT and skipped MK, I'd be thrown out of the family. Yet a few years back, when I had a chance to do two days at parks by myself, I chose IOA (Spiderman) and EPCOT (Nostalgia)

Epcot with it's F&W and F&G festivals almost certainly get a big number of one day visitors,not as many as MK but definitely more than AK and DHS.

 

[Angel Ariel]

As others have said-it's all about the money (more than these fake attendance numbers)-so yes they have made a brilliant move IMO with a split HP connected by a HP attraction train. How many folks might go back and forth 5 or 10 times a day?

Point is more for inflating turn styles and therefore inaccurate actual attendance numbers.

I actually don't hold a 2nd park visit in a day against the numbers-just repeats to the same park. And the closer/more convenient they are-the more inflation.

If closer/more convenient had such a large effect on the numbers, then DL and DCA would be a lot higher on the list compared to anything in Orlando. It's a heck of a lot easier to park hop there than in any Orlando park.

Note: I'm not saying it has no effect at all, but I don't know that I buy that it's excessively inflating the numbers.

On a side note..question. I thought I read somewhere that Disney only counts your first entry into a park for admission purposes? Like in DLR, for example, if you went to DL first and DCA later in the day, that DL would get your attendance number, not DCA...

 

[clsteve]

Good points-and like I have been saying, there are cycles in this game. Hopefully it's not still us, but as we look at 1991 numbers-folks 20 years from now will be looking at 2016 numbers and seeing what went on back then.

The rest of your point is exactly what I meant by penalizing WDW. You call it a waste, when I'm saying they could have added an "AK" land off another park-like US/IOA did with HP. That is a much safer/cheaper bet-and folks would not be pointing at AK as a 1/2 park.

What do I care if AK is a 1/2 day? It's still better than crammed into another park IMO.

And we always knock out IOA by noon, and that's taking a cab over. US was even less-but are hoping HP will help with that one as well.

I prefer AK being it's own park, and would prefer HP was a 3rd park at US. But this way-they can avoid taking the risk, and offer us a less impressive product.

Safer and cheaper is rarely bad business sense. Would TDO do AK over again like they did? Doubt it. Did others learn from it? Definitely. So did Disney. Look at their overseas expansion (and Cali). Almost 100% MK focused and/or Disney IP.

I also love AK and am glad it's its own Park- there's not a more beautiful Theme Park in existence. But, there's a reason they're fixing it and a reason adding Lands instead of additional Gates is in vogue.

Still, I'll stick to my guns that looking at attendance numbers doesn't mean much of anything without rev and profitability growth (and how achieved).

 

[jade1]

Safer and cheaper is rarely bad business sense. Would TDO do AK over again like they did? Doubt it. Did others learn from it? Definitely. So did Disney. Look at their overseas expansion (and Cali). Almost 100% MK focused and/or Disney IP.

I also love AK and am glad it's its own Park- there's not a more beautiful Theme Park in existence. But, there's a reason they're fixing it and a reason adding Lands instead of additional Gates is in vogue.

Still, I'll stick to my guns that looking at attendance numbers doesn't mean much of anything without rev and profitability growth (and how achieved).

I don't doubt any of that-but I'm still glad they did it that way and not the cheap way.

 

[jade1]

It's number of times of entry, period.

On a side note..question. I thought I read somewhere that Disney only counts your first entry into a park for admission purposes? Like in DLR, for example, if you went to DL first and DCA later in the day, that DL would get your attendance number, not DCA...

 

[Mad Hattered]

The bottom line is that there are not 17 million individual visitors to MK in a year. If a family of 4 enter MK every day for 5 days then it shows up as 20 visitors to MK. It doesn't show up in the stats as 20 different individual people visiting the park. The actual number of individuals who visit MK lies somewhere around AKs actual attendance.

So I suppose we can look back and separate US and IOA once the numbers are released for 2014/2015.