Looks like Universal win this round

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

I guess I just don't get being negative about duplicating in one park, but not another. Theme parks do duplicate rides...I mean, come on, a good portion of MK was duplicated from Disneyland - and the DL originals are better more often than not (Pirates, I'm especially looking at you ).

I hear that Space Mounntain is a LOT better at DL.

 

[Mad Hattered]

If my goal was to make Disney look real bad I would have picked

MK
1991 18 Million
2012 17.5 Million

21 Years 2.7% decline.

EPCOT
1991 14.4 Million
2012 11.0 Million

21 years 23% decline in Attendance.

DHS
1994 10.4 Million
2012 10.0 Million

18 years 3.8% decline

DAK
1999 8.6 Million
2012 9.9 Million

13 year 15% increase.

Through 2012, every WDW park except AK was off of it's high attendances in the '90's. It was announced though that for 2013 3 of the 4 parks hit new attendance records.

My point was if you look at the recent history. Disney has been pretty flat since 2008, or in reality 2007. While Universal has been making huge gains during the same period. It's interesting, I was just looking at the "major" theme park additions this century.
Red - "Minor" retheme of existing Attraction

2014 Festival of the Lion King Could switch to Green
2006 Expidition Everest
2002 Primevil Whirl & Triceritop Spin
2001 Mickey's Jungle Jammin Parade

Disney's Hollywood Studios
2011 Star Tours 2.0
2008 Toy Story Midway Mania
2005 Lights Motors Action

EPCOT
2011 Test Track 2.0
2009 Sum of all Thrills
2007 Grand Fiesta Tour with the three Caballero's
2006 The Seas with Nemo and Friends
2005 Soarin'
2004 Turtle Talk with Crush
2003 Mission Space
2002 Journey into Imagination with Figment

Magic Kingdom
2014 7 Drarf's Mine Ride
2014 Festival of Fantasy Parade
2012 Journey of the Little Mermaid
2012 Enchanted Tales with Belle
2012 New Fantasyland and Storybook Circus themed Area
2007 Monster's Inc Laughing Floor
2004 Stitches Great Escape
2003 Mickey's Philharmagic
2003 Wishes
2001 Magic Carpets's of Aladin

Islands of Adventure
2014 Hogwart's Express (Hogmead station) and additional themeing of Hogsmead.
2010 Harry Potter and Forbidden Journey
2010 Dragon Challenge & Flight of the Hippogriph
2010 Hogwart's themes area
2006 High in the Sky Suess Trolly

Universal Studio's
2014 Harry Potter and Escape from Gringotts
2014 Hogwart's Express (London Station)
2014 Diagon Alley and London Waterfront
2013 Kang's and Kodo's and Springfield Retheme
2013 Transformer's
2012 Universal's Cinimatic Spectacular
2012 Dispicable Me Minion Mayhem
2008 Simpson's Ride
2006 Disaster:A motion picture ride starring You
2005 Fearfactor Live
2004 Revenge of the Mummy

At the beginning of this Century, Disney was active with new Attractions and the Attendance figures show it paid dividends. Universal was pretty quiet after opening IOA in 1999 "resting on what they had created" in IOA and the attendance by 2004-2008 suffered because of it. In 2008-2009, Universal decided to get off their duff and it's appears to be paying dividends bringing back a pair of parks. Disney during the same time frame has sat on their laurels and has seen their growth disappear.

Looking ahead over the next 3-4 years at Disney we have Avatarland to look forward to and then maybe further down the road Starwars land.

At Universal, IOA has broken ground for the Return of King Kong probably in 2016. And there are credible rumors of Godzilla coming to USF, Expansion of Jurassic Park with a new ride at IOA, Kid's Zone getting a refresh with New major ride.

I see what you did there....

Nice post!

Personally, I think Avatar will end up looking good...I just hope they don't cheap out on it. Iger will be gone by the time it opens so that is a plus. I don't like the IP at all but at least it will be something new.

I am way more excited for Kong to come back to Universal in 2016. That is another example of using a timeless IP, not to mention the nostalgia factor.

 

[Mad Hattered]

I hear that Space Mounntain is a LOT better at DL.

It is. Because when they did the big refurb on it out West they actually installed new track and got new ride vehicles. It's much smoother than the WDW version.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I hear that Space Mounntain is a LOT better at DL.

Since the refurb they did a few years ago, absolutely yes!!

I ditto Mad Hattered's comment on it being a MUCH smoother ride, and the music that goes along with it is awesome as well.

ETA: I get that WDW did Space first, and DL copied it...but the refurb CA did basically made it a new ride, as Mad Hattered pointed out. My overall point was that theme parks copy rides...whether the ride originally appeared at DL and was copied in MK, or the ride originally appeared in WDW and was copied in DL....the point of theme parks, including Disney, duplicating rides remains the same.

 

[Mad Hattered]

Since the refurb they did a few years ago, absolutely yes!!

I ditto Mad Hattered's comment on it being a MUCH smoother ride, and the music that goes along with it is awesome as well.

ETA: I get that WDW did Space first, and DL copied it...but the refurb CA did basically made it a new ride, as Mad Hattered pointed out. My overall point was that theme parks copy rides...whether the ride originally appeared at DL and was copied in MK, or the ride originally appeared in WDW and was copied in DL....the point of theme parks, including Disney, duplicating rides remains the same.

Of course parks duplicate attractions. They would be crazy not to since they have a plan already in place. It saves them tons of money. How quickly some forget that MK is a duplicate of DL. Nothing screams duplication as blatantly as that.

Besides the obvious duplicates they also share:

TSMM
Indy/Dinosaur
Soarin
Tower of Terror
It's Tough To Be a Bug
Muppets 3D
Star Tours

It's almost like DL/DCA has the "greatest hits" of WDW minus RNRR and Everest. And it's just so darn easy to navigate out West without all the hassle.

Now if only DL could get rid of that damn tiny castle!!

 

[flicx]

If my goal was to make Disney look real bad I would have picked

MK
1991 18 Million
2012 17.5 Million

21 Years 2.7% decline.

EPCOT
1991 14.4 Million
2012 11.0 Million

21 years 23% decline in Attendance.

DHS
1994 10.4 Million
2012 10.0 Million

18 years 3.8% decline

DAK
1999 8.6 Million
2012 9.9 Million

13 year 15% increase.

Through 2012, every WDW park except AK was off of it's high attendances in the '90's. It was announced though that for 2013 3 of the 4 parks hit new attendance records.

My point was if you look at the recent history. Disney has been pretty flat since 2008, or in reality 2007. While Universal has been making huge gains during the same period. It's interesting, I was just looking at the "major" theme park additions this century.
Red - "Minor" retheme of existing Attraction

2014 Festival of the Lion King Could switch to Green
2006 Expidition Everest
2002 Primevil Whirl & Triceritop Spin
2001 Mickey's Jungle Jammin Parade

Disney's Hollywood Studios
2011 Star Tours 2.0
2008 Toy Story Midway Mania
2005 Lights Motors Action

EPCOT
2011 Test Track 2.0
2009 Sum of all Thrills
2007 Grand Fiesta Tour with the three Caballero's
2006 The Seas with Nemo and Friends
2005 Soarin'
2004 Turtle Talk with Crush
2003 Mission Space
2002 Journey into Imagination with Figment

Magic Kingdom
2014 7 Drarf's Mine Ride
2014 Festival of Fantasy Parade
2012 Journey of the Little Mermaid
2012 Enchanted Tales with Belle
2012 New Fantasyland and Storybook Circus themed Area
2007 Monster's Inc Laughing Floor
2004 Stitches Great Escape
2003 Mickey's Philharmagic
2003 Wishes
2001 Magic Carpets's of Aladin

Islands of Adventure
2014 Hogwart's Express (Hogmead station) and additional themeing of Hogsmead.
2010 Harry Potter and Forbidden Journey
2010 Dragon Challenge & Flight of the Hippogriph
2010 Hogwart's themes area
2006 High in the Sky Suess Trolly

Universal Studio's
2014 Harry Potter and Escape from Gringotts
2014 Hogwart's Express (London Station)
2014 Diagon Alley and London Waterfront
2013 Kang's and Kodo's and Springfield Retheme
2013 Transformer's
2012 Universal's Cinimatic Spectacular
2012 Dispicable Me Minion Mayhem
2008 Simpson's Ride
2006 Disaster:A motion picture ride starring You
2005 Fearfactor Live
2004 Revenge of the Mummy

At the beginning of this Century, Disney was active with new Attractions and the Attendance figures show it paid dividends. Universal was pretty quiet after opening IOA in 1999 "resting on what they had created" in IOA and the attendance by 2004-2008 suffered because of it. In 2008-2009, Universal decided to get off their duff and it's appears to be paying dividends bringing back a pair of parks. Disney during the same time frame has sat on their laurels and has seen their growth disappear.

Looking ahead over the next 3-4 years at Disney we have Avatarland to look forward to and then maybe further down the road Starwars land.

At Universal, IOA has broken ground for the Return of King Kong probably in 2016. And there are credible rumors of Godzilla coming to USF, Expansion of Jurassic Park with a new ride at IOA, Kid's Zone getting a refresh with New major ride.

Very very well done mad hattered! All of these people who are claiming Disney is more packed and the wait times on non e attraction rides are longer because now Disney has more people in the park are flat out wrong! The numbers clearly show the 90's were a boom time for Disney World! The attractions were being built at a far faster rate then too! Seems like a simple recipe. Apparently the new regime has forgotten this!

 

[MightyGitis]

Very very well done mad hattered! All of these people who are claiming Disney is more packed and the wait times on non e attraction rides are longer because now Disney has more people in the park are flat out wrong! The numbers clearly show the 90's were a boom time for Disney World! The attractions were being built at a far faster rate then too! Seems like a simple recipe. Apparently the new regime has forgotten this!

I think you missed this part of the thing you were quoting: " Through 2012, every WDW park except AK was off of it's high attendances in the '90's. It was announced though that for 2013 3 of the 4 parks hit new attendance records."

So the people talking about increased crowds have been right. Though final numbers are not available yet to 100% base this one. At least I couldn't find any.

 

[flicx]

I think you missed this part of the thing you were quoting: " Through 2012, every WDW park except AK was off of it's high attendances in the '90's. It was announced though that for 2013 3 of the 4 parks hit new attendance records."

So the people talking about increased crowds have been right. Though final numbers are not available yet to 100% base this one. At least I couldn't find any.

Point is this. The crowd levels have been similar and more in the past. These aren't unheard of crowds. Don't forget there was one less park for a few of those years too (less room to disperse people). Many non e ticket rides have had lines no one has ever seen before. Coincidentally coinciding with fast pass plus. If crowd numbers are close to what the were 20 or more years ago and these didn't exist then kind of leads one to a simple conclusion.

 

[Mad Hattered]

It was actually, johde who posted all those stats. He gets the props.

 

[flicx]

It was actually, johde who posted all those stats. He gets the props.

Either way great numbers! Kudos!

 

[Angel Ariel]

Of course parks duplicate attractions. They would be crazy not to since they have a plan already in place. It saves them tons of money. How quickly some forget that MK is a duplicate of DL. Nothing screams duplication as blatantly as that.

Besides the obvious duplicates they also share:

TSMM
Indy/Dinosaur
Soarin
Tower of Terror
It's Tough To Be a Bug
Muppets 3D
Star Tours

It's almost like DL/DCA has the "greatest hits" of WDW minus RNRR and Everest. And it's just so darn easy to navigate out West without all the hassle.

Now if only DL could get rid of that damn tiny castle!!

That's what I was trying to say in responding to Amy originally .

ITA with the bolded as well...I love DLR. It may be because that was my first Disney "park", and we went there more often when I was very young b/c we have family there, but DLR has an entirely different magic than MK/WDW. DLR feels like home in a way WDW just doesn't.

 

[MightyGitis]

Point is this. The crowd levels have been similar and more in the past. These aren't unheard of crowds. Don't forget there was one less park for a few of those years too (less room to disperse people). Many non e ticket rides have had lines no one has ever seen before. Coincidentally coinciding with fast pass plus. If crowd numbers are close to what the were 20 or more years ago and these didn't exist then kind of leads one to a simple conclusion.

That was not the point you appeared to be trying to make. You were saying people were "flat out wrong" about increased crowds. They aren't flat out wrong. I'm not saying you are either. Can't claim FP+ doesn't bear some blame. But you can't say increased crowds don't bear some of the blame too.

 

[magicbob]

I hear that Space Mounntain is a LOT better at DL.

It is. Because when they did the big refurb on it out West they actually installed new track and got new ride vehicles. It's much smoother than the WDW version.

Space Mountain in Disneyland Paris blows them both out of the water!

 

[AmyB2006]

Of course parks duplicate attractions. They would be crazy not to since they have a plan already in place. It saves them tons of money. How quickly some forget that MK is a duplicate of DL. Nothing screams duplication as blatantly as that.

It's one thing to duplicate a park or an attraction thousands of miles away, as in MK vs DL. It's one thing to duplicate it... right next door. Just sayin'.

I get that MK and DL have lots of duplicates, and yes I would expect them to duplicate rides in the two different parks, that span over 3000 miles apart.

I don't expect Universal to duplicate a ride in both IOA and US, which are right next door.

That's all I was saying about the rides being duplicated, and really, it's only the Transformers/Spiderman ride that I have an issue with as far as duplication. I didn't notice anything else that was that close to another ride while at Universal last time. But granted it was for Halloween.

 

[flicx]

That was not the point you appeared to be trying to make. You were saying people were "flat out wrong" about increased crowds. They aren't flat out wrong. I'm not saying you are either. Can't claim FP+ doesn't bear some blame. But you can't say increased crowds don't bear some of the blame too.

Many people have been saying that the past 5 to 10 years Disney has had a huge jump in attendance levels. Many claimed levels never seen before. These numbers seem to bear out an average decline(with the exception of 2013). I know this much, with nothing much attraction wise being planned in the immediate future they better hope the mine train is a huge hit.

 

[clsteve]

It's one thing to duplicate a park or an attraction thousands of miles away, as in MK vs DL. It's one thing to duplicate it... right next door. Just sayin'.

I get that MK and DL have lots of duplicates, and yes I would expect them to duplicate rides in the two different parks, that span over 3000 miles apart.

I don't expect Universal to duplicate a ride in both IOA and US, which are right next door.

That's all I was saying about the rides being duplicated, and really, it's only the Transformers/Spiderman ride that I have an issue with as far as duplication. I didn't notice anything else that was that close to another ride while at Universal last time. But granted it was for Halloween.

Saying Spiderman and Transformers are the same ride is no different than saying 7DMT and BTMRR are the same or LM, PoTC, IASW are the same. They utilize same/similar technology but have completely different story lines.

We actually prefer Transformers to Spiderman and think the depth and complexity of the storyline and the sophistication of the simulation is better, so don't view them as the same anymore than we would the Disney rides that utilize the same technology.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

For the short-term I think HP wins hands down any fight but I want to see HP come out of cult following into a true classic.

Rocky Horror Picture Show has a cult following. The Princess Bride as a cult following. Donnie Darko has a cult following. Harry Potter IS a true classic.

 

[nugov2]

Saying Spiderman and Transformers are the same ride is no different than saying 7DMT and BTMRR are the same or LM, PoTC, IASW are the same. They utilize similar technology but have completely different story lines.

We actually prefer Transformers to Spiderman and think the depth and complexity of the storyline and the sophistication of the simulation is better, so don't view them as the same anymore than we would the Disney rides that utilize the same technology.

That is what I was saying before in my post...my dh thought all of those were exactly the same (painfully so for him...I think the term glorified carnival was used to describe MK). He did not find Transformers to be the same as Spiderman, but he is biased to IOA/Uni probably the way many are to WDW. I love both parks, but was for sure impressed with Universal. I had never been before and it was way more than what I was expecting and it did make me reconsider the amount of time we will spend at the WDW parks on our next trip.

 

[nickcapp]

I think those numbers, while correct, don't tell the full story. There is a point where capacity etc become an issue and attendance growth is dependent on expansion. Which Disney feels no need for at this time. On the whole, Disney has dominated in the attendance figures, over doubling up on IOA in 2012. Until those numbers get close or IOA or Universal overtake DHS or AK, I don't think Disney will panic.

Both those parks, especially IOA, are certainly in reach and Harry Potter has a huge part in that.

Those who claim that Disney has become more crowded are not off base. Obviously Disney has more land to disperse people, parks or otherwise. When compared to Universal as a whole, there are WAY more people in the Disney Parks. By comparison, it can feel more crowded in and around the parks. This is one of the major reasons the experience at Universal can be better. Its easier to enjoy a park that has 8 Million less people over a year than MK.

The fact is, Universal has a lot of catch up to do and we as the consumer benefit.

Until those numbers get closer, I don't think Disney will react and that is unfortunate to those who look at rides as the primary attraction of Disneyworld.

Personally, I enjoy the environment Disney has created. I love Hogsmead and look forward to Diagon alley.

 

[glamdring269]

Rocky Horror Picture Show has a cult following. The Princess Bride as a cult following. Donnie Darko has a cult following. Harry Potter IS a true classic.

Agreed.