long term maternity leave (debate)

[jrydberg]

Originally posted by Parkerpooh
Okay, this thread has really ticked me off! As a mother who just finished with my one year mat leave finds this "discussion disgusting and reminds me exactly why Canada will always be our home! I have paid my EI premiums for 13 years and definitely felt justified in using MY MONEY that was put there through 13 years of work to take a year off with my son so he can grow up being nurturing and well adjusted. I could not even imagine dumping my child in a daycare at 6 or 8 weeks of age! The child/parent bond is essential for the normal growth and health of the child's spirit and sense of self worth. I feel as a canadian woman that it is a terrible shame that americans do not have the same opportunities or want them. It is only the children that will suffer and your country in the long term. If I had chosen not to have children of my own I would have more than happy to pay my premiums for other mothers(or laid-off workers) to have that money aside in their time of need. I feel I would be contributing to society by ensuring children have the emotional connection with their parents so they too can grow up to be mature, responible law-abiding citizens. Although, perhaps that's what the difference between our 2 countries is, I ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE AROUND ME NOT JUST WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME,ME,ME!!!!!!Oh,well at least I can send my kids to public school knowing that some ill-adjusted kid won't come in with gun and blow them away!!!!(we have excellent gun laws as well, but that's a whole other debate!!) JENN

Simple solution -- you stay in Canada, I'll stay in the US. What ticks me off is that some don't seem to be able to see that their view might not be *the* solution for everyone on the planet. You like your system... great. More power to ya. I wouldn't trade with you, and I'm sure you wouldn't trade with me. Fortunately we don't have to.

 

[Parkerpooh]

Jmmom80, I think you need to read the rest of my post as canadians aren't part of the american MEMEMEMEMEMEMe club! thank goodness! Jenn

 

[maryliz]

On average, let's say we have to work for 35 years, all the time paying into this. The contributions I started making 20 years ago have been invested etc, and yes, perhaps at the time, used to pay others that were using the EI benefits at that particular time. And yes, there are plenty of people out there who pay into it all of their working lives, are fortunate enough to never be unemployed and perhaps never take advantage of maternity/parental leave. But it's a TAX ... you have no choice. How is it any different than someone who is fortunate enough to never require medical attention in their lifetime. Taxes support hospitals etc, and maybe you've never had to go to the emergency room, or be admitted. Consider yourself lucky and know that hopefully your tax dollars have been used to aid others in need.

Because I only had 6 months off for each of my 2 kids, I figured out that over the course of my DH and my working careers, I will have easily paid for the cost of my maternity leaves, and then some leftover for others. I'm good with that.

And remember, we'll all be paying this tax loooonnnnnggg after we've had our kids and collected the maternity benefits.

And we can either be thankful we live where we do, or if we're not, consider moving

 

[jmmom80]

Originally posted by Parkerpooh
Jmmom80, I think you need to read the rest of my post as canadians aren't part of the american MEMEMEMEMEMEMe club! thank goodness! Jenn

i did read all of your post, and it still doesn't change my mind. if it works for you, great. but i want no part of subsidizing someone so that they can stay home for a year. their choice, their responsibility.

 

[Jenn Lynn]

What happens to the money if you never use it?
What happens if you have a baby, use your EI and then go back to work, and then a month later you get laid off? Is the insurance separted into categories? So much $$ for maternity, so much $$ for unemployment?

 

[Hedgie81677]

Originally posted by septbride2002
I've never heard that either. But what I have heard is that they get free healthcare for themselves and their families even after they are no longer in office. Which I find to be a bunch of bull.
~Amanda

Totally agree...no matter how you look at it, they get plenty of perks, which the middle working class doesn't.

 

[Hedgie81677]

Originally posted by Canadian
I haven't had a chance to read all of the posts in this thread, but I just wanted to clarify a few things about Canadian Maternity Leave that you might not get...

Every paycheque, the government takes off a hefty chunk of money, which is then put into E.I. (Employment Insurance) in my name. Whether I lose my job or not, or whether I decide to have a baby or not, this money is accumulating in an account somewhere in the magical world of our government. We are required by law to have this money taken off our cheques, whether we ever use it or not.

However. With that said, you must have paid a certain amount of money into E.I. in order to be eligible for Maternity Leave Pay. You can't just start working, and 2 weeks later decide that you want to have Maternity Leave, and get all kinds of free money. It doesn't work like that.

Basically, you pay into the fund... and when you meet the requirements, you are allowed to "take out" the money you've put in. It works out to being 55% of your regular pay (up to a maximum per week).

Employers don't pay this.
Other taxpayers don't pay this.
It's coming out of the money you've already paid into your E.I. fund.

Meanwhile, your employer has the opportunity to hire someone to fill your shoes for the year of leave. Usually, employers save money while someone is on maternity leave, because they can pay the replacement worker a smaller salary during the year.

So it works out for everyone!

Also, regarding health care... we get most "essential" medical services covered by our government (i.e. not cosmetic surgery, or other elective treatments)... but it comes at a price. Our taxes are definitely higher than they are in the states. As well, we recently had a law come in to Ontario where the government takes a sum of money from every paycheque to go into the health system as well. Sure, we complain up here about our high taxes and this new health premium we have to pay... but I'm sure we all appreciate it when we are able to walk into a hospital, get all kinds of medical service and walk out without ever seeing a bill.

That's all... just wanted to voice my opinion!

This is similar to unemployment tax that is taken out of our paychecks in the US, but never have I heard that it can be used for Maternity Leave. I wish it was. Maybe it is? Does anyone know the answer?

 

[Disneylvr]

I am not sure how I feel about long term maternity leave although it would of been nice last year and had it been offered I would of taken it. I can understand the arguements against it though. However, I do wish US employers were required to give their employees paid short-term maternity leave, 6-8 weeks perhaps. My employer does not offer ANY paid maternity leave. I was able to be gone for 8 weeks (Family/Medical leave) with pay but had to use up all of my sick time and vacation time to do so. I have been with this employer for 11 years. After being off to be with my newborn I was left with very little sick and vacation time for the rest of the year. My choice yes, but I do believe in paid maternity leave for 6-8 weeks without having to use up existing vacation and/or sick time.

 

[totalia]

Originally posted by Hedgie81677
I understand these agencies need to exist, but my issue is when a mother decides to have more children while on assistance which allows them to receive more of our tax money, I have a problem with that. If the government would push the law in place of welfare to work. Which basically states, you have one year to take the assistance given to you get an free education or training, plus free daycare and help you find a job. Then the US could afford to a least pay the 12 weeks that is given to mothers as part of the FMLA (Family Medical Leave Act).

Apparently you've decided that because there is a handful of bad apples, that everyone else should suffer because of it. Does that really seem right to you?

Yes, these kinds of people are a real problem but the fact is that the majority of people who use these programs actually DO need them.

How do I know this? I was one of them for 3 years of my life. Without welfare, we'd have been on the streets living from garbage cans because the little bit of money that my mom and I were managing to bring into the home didn't even remotely pay for our bills even with help from welfare (they only believe you deserve a certain amount of money a month. If you make more than that, they cut you off). There were times when we went for a week or more without food. Have you ever felt what its like to be so starving that your in pain? I have.

Believe me, there are people who really need it. As much as I loath the idea that someone can use it to play off the system so they don't have to work, there are far more people who find it embarassing and disgusting to be on welfare but have NO CHOICE.

Originally posted by Parkerpooh
Okay, this thread has really ticked me off! As a mother who just finished with my one year mat leave finds this "discussion disgusting and reminds me exactly why Canada will always be our home! I have paid my EI premiums for 13 years and definitely felt justified in using MY MONEY that was put there through 13 years of work to take a year off with my son so he can grow up being nurturing and well adjusted. I could not even imagine dumping my child in a daycare at 6 or 8 weeks of age! The child/parent bond is essential for the normal growth and health of the child's spirit and sense of self worth. I feel as a canadian woman that it is a terrible shame that americans do not have the same opportunities or want them. It is only the children that will suffer and your country in the long term. If I had chosen not to have children of my own I would have more than happy to pay my premiums for other mothers(or laid-off workers) to have that money aside in their time of need. I feel I would be contributing to society by ensuring children have the emotional connection with their parents so they too can grow up to be mature, responible law-abiding citizens. Although, perhaps that's what the difference between our 2 countries is, I ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE AROUND ME NOT JUST WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME,ME,ME!!!!!!Oh,well at least I can send my kids to public school knowing that some ill-adjusted kid won't come in with gun and blow them away!!!!(we have excellent gun laws as well, but that's a whole other debate!!) JENN

Bravo. Well said. I agree with you in every way. You just said some things that I've been wanting to say throughout all of this.

While I believe a mother should be able to have the option to go back to work as soon as she WANTS to, its no wonder American children have started shooting each other and have such bad manners.

Originally posted by Jenn Lynn
What happens to the money if you never use it?
What happens if you have a baby, use your EI and then go back to work, and then a month later you get laid off? Is the insurance separted into categories? So much $$ for maternity, so much $$ for unemployment?

If we never use it? It stays in the system to help someone else. Unlike most Americans not everyone and everything is centered around ourselves.

Look, I may never have children (long story) and I pay into the fund every paycheck. At first I questioned the logic of this. But after watching mothers and experiencing my nephew, I really understand now.

If I never use it, I actually care enough about other people that I want to make sure that some lucky mother DOES get to use it to help herself and her children be good, well rounded, well adjusted people. Whatever mother it helps, she will have been contributing from every job she has had since she turned 18 too.

You see, I actually understand that the world can't center around just me.

Originally posted by Canadian
I haven't had a chance to read all of the posts in this thread, but I just wanted to clarify a few things about Canadian Maternity Leave that you might not get...

Every paycheque, the government takes off a hefty chunk of money, which is then put into E.I. (Employment Insurance) in my name. Whether I lose my job or not, or whether I decide to have a baby or not, this money is accumulating in an account somewhere in the magical world of our government. We are required by law to have this money taken off our cheques, whether we ever use it or not.

However. With that said, you must have paid a certain amount of money into E.I. in order to be eligible for Maternity Leave Pay. You can't just start working, and 2 weeks later decide that you want to have Maternity Leave, and get all kinds of free money. It doesn't work like that.

Basically, you pay into the fund... and when you meet the requirements, you are allowed to "take out" the money you've put in. It works out to being 55% of your regular pay (up to a maximum per week).

Employers don't pay this.
Other taxpayers don't pay this.
It's coming out of the money you've already paid into your E.I. fund.

Meanwhile, your employer has the opportunity to hire someone to fill your shoes for the year of leave. Usually, employers save money while someone is on maternity leave, because they can pay the replacement worker a smaller salary during the year.

So it works out for everyone!

Also, regarding health care... we get most "essential" medical services covered by our government (i.e. not cosmetic surgery, or other elective treatments)... but it comes at a price. Our taxes are definitely higher than they are in the states. As well, we recently had a law come in to Ontario where the government takes a sum of money from every paycheque to go into the health system as well. Sure, we complain up here about our high taxes and this new health premium we have to pay... but I'm sure we all appreciate it when we are able to walk into a hospital, get all kinds of medical service and walk out without ever seeing a bill.

That's all... just wanted to voice my opinion!

Well put. Exactly.

 

[jmmom80]

If I never use it, I actually care enough about other people that I want to make sure that some lucky mother DOES get to use it to help herself and her children be good, well rounded, well adjusted people.

quite a leap there, and not the first time it's been made in this thread. i suppose that it's just a given in your mind that women that work can't raise good, well rounded, well adjusted people that are able to attend school without killing someone else...

bad assumption on your part

 

[septbride2002]

Where did I say all public schools are failing?

You are kidding right?

At least Im our case we do pay for everything related to our childrens education, and we pay the taxes that pay for the education of others. That is why I fully support vouchers for those of us who refuse to send our children to the failing public schools..[/

Simple solution -- you stay in Canada, I'll stay in the US. What ticks me off is that some don't seem to be able to see that their view might not be *the* solution for everyone on the planet. You like your system... great. More power to ya. I wouldn't trade with you, and I'm sure you wouldn't trade with me. Fortunately we don't have to.

What exactly do you like about our system? Again I'm not all for doing exactly what Canada does - but I don't exactly like our system the way it is either.

~Amanda

 

[FayeW]

A question for the American posters.

Can you buy private health insurance which covers not only the cost of the labour, delivery, and hospital care, but also provides income replacement while you recover at home for a period of time after the birth? Is so, how long will the coverage allow you to stay off work, and at what percentage do they replace your income?

My next question, assuming that there is some type of insurance like this, is how is that different than the coverage our government has so thoughtfully provided for us? If you buy private health insurance, do you begruge the other policy holders their entitlement if they CHOOSE to use their coverage to help pay maternity benefits? Don't you feel like you are PAYING for them to have a baby, especially if you have not required medical treatment yourself and have not used your benefits? The whole notion seems kind of silly, don't you think??

In Canada, I am REQUIRED to have automobile insurance, which God willing, I will never need, yet the premium is not a TAX.
If I have a mortgage on my home, I am also REQUIRED to carry replacement insurance on the property to protect the lienholders interest, again with the hope I will never need it, yet the premium is not a TAX.
I am also required to pay E.I premiums on any salaried income, which provides me with protection against loss of income, including, but not limited to, loss of job and illness ( which includes surgery, childbirth, and maternity leave.) My husband is in the military, he can NEVER file for E.I benefits, yet he pays his premium month after month, for nearly 20 years. This is not a TAX.
The premiums he, and the other 60,000 members of our military pay, are just like the premiums we pay for our fire, auto, and travel insurance. We pay them and hope we never need them, and in the meantime the fund pays for those people who do.

By the way, just because we are allowed a maximum of 52 weeks for maternity and parental leave, doesn't mean everybody uses it all. 55% of your salary doesn't go very far, nobody is getting rich. I know several people who went back after 6 or 9 months because they simply couldn't afford not to have their full salary anymore.

 

[jrydberg]

What do I like? I like the fact that I'm not having more money taken out of my pay check to pay for, as they say in the UK, the nanny state. I take care of my family much better than the government does.

I like the fact that my success or failure is just that - *my* success or *my* failure. I've had a bit of both, currently more on the successful side. But when I was laid off, for example, I didn't expect the government to do anything about it. I did something about it.

I like the fact that this nation continues to have a strong sense of personal responsibility.

Don't get me wrong. Things are not perfect in the US. Clearly there are significant problems. But I think we'd be making a monumental mistake to go further down the path of socialism. Hard work and personal responsibility are the answer to most things, IMO.

 

[Hedgie81677]

Originally posted by totalia
Apparently you've decided that because there is a handful of bad apples, that everyone else should suffer because of it. Does that really seem right to you?

I am not saying everyone should suffer, and I trully believe there are people who are out there that deserve assistance, but the government can put a stop to paying out extra money to families who are having kids, just to have kids because they know they will receive the money. There are plenty of people on waiting lists for government assistance who certainly deserve our tax allocated dollars then others.

I am sorry you had to be in the situation, but I don't think you abused the system. There is a trend and the government officials refuse to allocate enough time to fix it, granted it probably sounds easier than done, but instead of worrying about what every other country is doing, we should pay attention to what is going on in our own backyard.

 

[septbride2002]

Don't get me wrong. Things are not perfect in the US. Clearly there are significant problems. But I think we'd be making a monumental mistake to go further down the path of socialism. Hard work and personal responsibility are the answer to most things, IMO.

I guess maybe I am a bleeding heart liberal like people have been telling me

I'm all for personal responsibility and have been personally responsible for myself since I was 16 years old. I've put myself through college, purchased my own home without any government assistance and without help from my family, and my husband and I both work very hard.

But as a woman I guess I feel that I am limited. If I choose to have a child and stay home for more then 8 weeks I risk the good job that I have worked very hard to acquire. I lose my fairly good health care benefits, and also a job that I enjoy. If I choose to work I am then forced to put my child into a daycare system at a very very very tiny stage in their life. I am not able to be with them and therefore would be compacted with guilt.

Either way I am limited to what I can do. So I guess I would appreciate a system where I could take off the time and still be able to come back to my job. I would apprciate a system that helps us to balance work and family rather then make a choice between the two.

~Amanda

 

[jmmom80]

Can you buy private health insurance which covers not only the cost of the labour, delivery, and hospital care, but also provides income replacement while you recover at home for a period of time after the birth? Is so, how long will the coverage allow you to stay off work, and at what percentage do they replace your income?

My next question, assuming that there is some type of insurance like this, is how is that different than the coverage our government has so thoughtfully provided for us?

i don't know if such policies are available or not, but let's assume for a moment that they are available. you ask "what is the difference?" the answer is simple: one is a choice, the other is a mandate. anyone buying the private policy would do so because they chose to, whereas the tax funded benefit is forced on people, whether they want it or not.

as for the differences between premiums and taxes, it's quite simple. i can't speak for canada, but in the u.s., ,we are able to choose the amount of coverge (above minimum) we have in our auto policies, and thus we are able to control the price we pay to some degree. the government is not taking a set percentage of our income for others to use. the money goes to the company providing the insurance, not to the government. from everything i've read here, that is not the case when it comes to canadian ei. the government sets the rate, everyone pays it, and it is a percentage of income. the differences between premiums and taxes are quite simple. you can call it a premium all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it is indeed a government imposed tax on income.

 

[jrydberg]

Originally posted by septbride2002

But as a woman I guess I feel that I am limited. If I choose to have a child and stay home for more then 8 weeks I risk the good job that I have worked very hard to acquire. I lose my fairly good health care benefits, and also a job that I enjoy. If I choose to work I am then forced to put my child into a daycare system at a very very very tiny stage in their life. I am not able to be with them and therefore would be compacted with guilt.

When my daughter was born, I arranged to work out of the house as an independent contractor until I felt she was old enough to go to daycare. Was it an ideal situation? Nah, certainly not. But life is about choices. I sacrificed a good deal of income and benefits to have the opportunity to be home with my daughter. But here's the thing... I was in a position to be able to make that choice because the government hadn't been sucking my paycheck dry every week. And I knew that when she was ready for daycare, I'd be able to find a good job again.

And what of those people who would never have children who would have to pay into such a system? Should they have to fund your maternity leave, and cover your job while you're gone and have to completely retrain you since you'd been gone so long that everything changed?

 

[Branwen]

Ok, I have to say something. I am Canadian and proud of it. I also think that every success or failure I have had is MY success or MY failure. When I lost my job and applied for unemployment, I found a new job before I even got my first UI cheque thereby I lost the right to use any of the premiums I had paid in prior. I had to start all over again. The government did nothing for me and I didn't expect them to. I also think that Canada is also a nations of "personal responsibility", not just the US.

Our taxes are high here. We pay the price for our standard of living, which believe it or not is high, not low like some may think. But I like the fact that our crime is low, that I can see a doctor whenever I choose without paying unbelieveably high insurance premiums on health insurance and that should I have children, I can choose to be with them for a full year. I have been working now, full-time since I was 17 years old (15 years) and have paid in my share of EI premiums and have never taken a cent. Should I need maternity leave, I think I have paid in enough premiums to pay my salary for a year.

 

[septbride2002]

And what of those people who would never have children who would have to pay into such a system? Should they have to fund your maternity leave, and cover your job while you're gone and have to completely retrain you since you'd been gone so long that everything changed?

But again you miss the point that this type of "insurance" is not just for maternity leave. I may never have knee surgery - but you might and then you could have the time to take off work and heal.

When my daughter was born, I arranged to work out of the house as an independent contractor until I felt she was old enough to go to daycare.

Good for you! I'm glad you had that choice available - I don't - any other suggestions?

But here's the thing... I was in a position to be able to make that choice because the government hadn't been sucking my paycheck dry every week. And I knew that when she was ready for daycare, I'd be able to find a good job again.

Yeah I might be able to find a good job again - then again I might not. You are risking an awful lot by leaving a position and not having another option already lined up.

~Amanda

 

[KarenC]

In the US, many of us are offered long and short term disability insurance. The 6 to 8 weeks it takes the mother to recuperate from childbirth is generally covered by the short term disability, if it exists, as would recuperation from knee injuries or any other illness.