Line holders

[ParkHoppers]

If there is one thing that this thread proves is that there is angst over this issue. Maybe not by you. But it is out there.


Actually, this is the great fallacy that most people don't understand. Mathematically, if everybody used a placeholder, the line wouldn't change a bit. Imagine the following scenario. There are 100 "groups" in line Every group in line is a family of four. They all get line and wait. No one cuts. This is utopian. Go ahead and assign a wait time to this. It doesn't really matter what it is. Let's say 30 minutes. Now let's change it up. Every group utilizes a placeholder and each group has three other people who are free to eat, shop, go to the restroom. Whatever. As soon as their placeholder is 10 people from the front of the line, the rest of his/her group starts to reassemble and joins the line right by the boarding area and boards the ride. Guess what? Your wait would be exactly the same. When everyone uses a placeholder, you achieve the same utopian state. This is essentially what they have done with Dumbo. So your assumption that everyone using a placeholder would significantly affect the wait time is provable wrong.


Actually, if you re-read my posts, you will see that at no time did ever say that it was ok. I said the opposite. My point is that the frequency isn't significant enough to cause me to fret about it.


I have been to WDW in every month of the year in approximately 40 of the 45 years that it has been open. I have never, ever seen 10-20 people try to cut a line. I'd say 4 is my personal best.

To your arguement that the wait would be the same let me say that is a family splits up with group A at another attraction and Group B is in front of me in line. If group A shows up at my line they are behind me. Now if they move in front of me I am now pushed back whatever the number group A is. Now if group A and B went to the other attraction together they would all be behind me in line when they showed up to my attraction. See the issue. In reality by splitting up all vacation this family/group would have to wait in lines a lot less than some group not splitting up. Hope this didn't make heads spin.....in principle to me it is a matter of fairness to all others waiting in lines.

 

[IrishNYC]

Actually, this is the great fallacy that most people don't understand. Mathematically, if everybody used a placeholder, the line wouldn't change a bit. Imagine the following scenario. There are 100 "groups" in line Every group in line is a family of four. They all get line and wait. No one cuts. This is utopian. Go ahead and assign a wait time to this. It doesn't really matter what it is. Let's say 30 minutes. Now let's change it up. Every group utilizes a placeholder and each group has three other people who are free to eat, shop, go to the restroom. Whatever. As soon as their placeholder is 10 people from the front of the line, the rest of his/her group starts to reassemble and joins the line right by the boarding area and boards the ride. Guess what? Your wait would be exactly the same. When everyone uses a placeholder, you achieve the same utopian state. This is essentially what they have done with Dumbo. So your assumption that everyone using a placeholder would significantly affect the wait time is provable wrong.

I disagree...

If Ride A has a capacity of 100 people every 10 minutes, and 200 people are on the line as placeholders for a group of 4, your theory says that this doesn't affect the wait time. But, mathematically, the 200th placeholder is really 776th-800th in line, making their wait time not 20 minutes, but 80 minutes.

But, time isn't what most of us here have the issue with. It's the notion that it's ok for someone to go on another ride, have a snack, etc. while most other people are part of a society that waits in line.

 

[bashuck]

So you are alright with one person cutting the line which I,m guessing usually falls into what your family is doing but more than that is a problem to you? Not trying to start a fight but don't knock me just because I believe in not line cutting based on the principle of it. If you believe in the principle than 1 is too much. Again if someone is already in line and needs to step out then back in due to a restroom visit no problem. That person was already waiting with the rest of us. However is a family wants to split up to do two things at once so some of the group doesn't have to wait at the second attraction I see that as a problem. That's trying to beat the system as I see it and is not fair to those who always have to wait in line for EVERY attraction they go to at Disney.

I obviously don't have a problem with what I described as doing at Epcot for this open space character meet and greet in which nobody has to get out of our way as there there is no line going around like in a typical queue and we are getting one autograph/pic. I'm against it at say Soarin' as you thought you were in X position and you are now in X+1. Not enough against it to be 'on the lookout' to stop someone. I view the line as a process, not a punishment. If a couple could have 1 person go get two dole-whips while the other gets the entrees at Friar's Nook and then they sit down together that takes X time. If they both got in the Friar's line and then both got in the Dole whip line that would obviously take longer and would benefit those that were otherwise after them in dole-whip line in the scenario where they split up. I view splitting up as smart, you view it as taking advantage of those in the dole whip line.

 

[Party.Of.4-NY>>>FL]

When I'm driving and I finish my cup of Starbucks coffee, I find it terribly inconvenient to keep the empty cup in my car until I arrive at my destination and find a trash can.

Having said that, I would like to make a formal request that I be allowed to throw my empty cup out the window. I mean really, what's the big deal? It's ONLY ONE CUP. Won't make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

(Sarcasm)

 

[ParkHoppers]

I obviously don't have a problem with what I described as doing at Epcot for this open space character meet and greet in which nobody has to get out of our way as there there is no line going around like in a typical queue and we are getting one autograph/pic. I'm against it at say Soarin' as you thought you were in X position and you are now in X+1. Not enough against it to be 'on the lookout' to stop someone. I view the line as a process, not a punishment. If a couple could have 1 person go get two dole-whips while the other gets the entrees at Friar's Nook and then they sit down together that takes X time. If they both got in the Friar's line and then both got in the Dole whip line that would obviously take longer and would benefit those that were otherwise after them in dole-whip line in the scenario where they split up. I view splitting up as smart, you view it as taking advantage of those in the dole whip line.

Food lines are different and you know this. It only takes one person to get food for multiple people. However for all let's say four people to go on a ride all four need to be in line to get all four on the ride. Let's say half of your group is waiting for a character picture and the other half is waiting for Soarin. The character picture group comes over to Soarin and pushes through the line near the front to meet you. That half of your group didn't have to wait in the Soarin line like everybody else. I think this is taking advantage and not really fair to those waiting in the Soarin line. This is my problem and a SMART way to take advantage. Same thing when a group gets to rope drop first because they got up and out before anyone else. As the rope drops there are always some at the back of the line that slept in that sprint right past all those in the front of the line to get an advantage to get to rides. Is this smart or selfish? This is Disney World and not Lord of the Flies.

 

[bashuck]

Food lines are different and you know this. It only takes one person to get food for multiple people. However for all let's say four people to go on a ride all four need to be in line to get all four on the ride. Let's say half of your group is waiting for a character picture and the other half is waiting for Soarin. The character picture group comes over to Soarin and pushes through the line near the front to meet you. That half of your group didn't have to wait in the Soarin line like everybody else. I think this is taking advantage and not really fair to those waiting in the Soarin line. This is my problem and a SMART way to take advantage. Same thing when a group gets to rope drop first because they got up and put before anyone else. As the rope drops there are always some at the back of the line that slept in that sprint right past all those in the front of the line to get an advantage to get to rides. Is this smart or selfish? This is Disney World and not Lord of the Flies.

We are on the same page on Soarin' and likely more things than you think. I walk faster than my wife/child and i'd never get in a ride line until they are also there. I'm defining a specific scenario that I do not believe is deceptive in any way unless someone saw me in the Belle line and thought I was standing there for nothing. I personally wouldn't begrudge someone because they do this and have 2 kids but I can see how increasing the # of kids increases the tension of someone standing in the line. Like I said I'm against taking tables when you haven't even placed your order but it is common practice. Everyone doesn't see eye to eye. I don't correct them in the park. I'm with you on the rope drop scenario, if you are out in the open walk as fast as your want but you shouldn't be squeezing thru darting left and right in front of people.

 

[flatlandcycle]

When I'm driving and I finish my cup of Starbucks coffee, I find it terribly inconvenient to keep the empty cup in my car until I arrive at my destination and find a trash can.

Having said that, I would like to make a formal request that I be allowed to throw my empty cup out the window. I mean really, what's the big deal? It's ONLY ONE CUP. Won't make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

(Sarcasm)

Did anyone else think of the governor in Carl Hiaasen's Sick Puppy?

 

[Legendofthehawk]

Anyone else here ever seen The Guild? Every time this topic comes up, it makes me think of this scene...

I <3 this. Thank you for posting!

This is where I went to in my head..

[/QUOTE]

 

[ols386]

I think it's ok if a parent and small child leave the line and come back in line, if the child has to be taken to the bathroom, but for just about any other reason, it's not ok.

 

[ols386]

View attachment 178373

That's hilarious!

 

[TeamH5]

here now. I'm not sure why people think it's okay to go up to "be with their group" in lines. Character lines, maybe. Lines like Soarin, not okay! Move back! Making the line longer and taking up seats. I don't care who you're trying to go sit with, you're still cutting the line.

It infuriates me as a single rider.

The line for them starts when they got in the line. Any other "large" amusement park does not tolerate it. Not saying Disney does or doesn't, but I get pushed back quite a few spots because people are going to go with their group.

If I got my kids.. We're gonna role if you tell me I can't 'hold a spot' for them while hubby entertains them elsewhere.

If it's a group of tweens, grown adults, etc.. Then yea, they should wait in line like everyone else.
But if kids are involved, especially young ones, don't even unless ulyouve been there done that.

 

[Dismama2boys]

Did anyone else think of the governor in Carl Hiaasen's Sick Puppy?

I didn't, but man I love that book. Laugh out loud funny.

 

[caroline1851]

I have no problem with a few people moving past me to get with their group. If someone in my group had a bathroom emergency or whatnot, I would like to think no one would care if they needed to catch back up with us. Just not a big deal to me. What's another few minutes in line.

 

[smidgy]

Actually, this is the great fallacy that most people don't understand. Mathematically, if everybody used a placeholder, the line wouldn't change a bit. Imagine the following scenario. There are 100 "groups" in line Every group in line is a family of four. They all get line and wait. No one cuts. This is utopian. Go ahead and assign a wait time to this. It doesn't really matter what it is. Let's say 30 minutes. Now let's change it up. Every group utilizes a placeholder and each group has three other people who are free to eat, shop, go to the restroom. Whatever. As soon as their placeholder is 10 people from the front of the line, the rest of his/her group starts to reassemble and joins the line right by the boarding area and boards the ride. Guess what? Your wait would be exactly the same. When everyone uses a placeholder, you achieve the same utopian state. This is essentially what they have done with Dumbo. So your assumption that everyone using a placeholder would significantly affect the wait time is provable wrong.
.

and I agreed that your wait time will be exactly the same whether the rest of all those families are in line or in a shop.I just don't get to be privy to that info! my point is the rest of all those families are not counted when they put up the estimated wait time. if it's a shorter line, I cannot see those bodies I am actually behind. you are saying they are in a "virtual line" but without fast pass ( the true, legal virtual line).

ERGO.. if 3 out of every 4 family members are waiting elsewhere until their time to ride the ride arrives, it definitely will affect the estimated wait time I was told WHEN I MADE THE DECISION TO ENTER THE STANDBY LINE.

and as we all know, with ADR's and fast pass times, it is easy to cut it close.

I have absolutely NO problem with a family entering a line together, then taking a child out for the bathroom, whatever. they are REJOINING a line they were already in.

 

[JimmyV]

I disagree...

There is nothing to disagree about. If one person per group holds their place in line as opposed to all members of the group actually being in line, you have to get the same result. It cannot be any other way. Let's say that each person takes 5 seconds to board. If all 4 people wait in line, then it takes 20 seconds for the group to board. If one person holds their place in line, and the other three join the line at the boarding area, it still takes this group 20 seconds to board. 20=20. No matter how you try to play with the numbers, this equation is immutable. If it takes an hour to board 1,000 people, it doesn't matter if those 1,000 people waited in line or came into the line at the last moment. As long as everyone does so in their ordinal place and doesn't try to move ahead of people who were in front of them, you cannot get a different result.

 

[whiporee]

If I got my kids.. We're gonna role if you tell me I can't 'hold a spot' for them while hubby entertains them elsewhere.

If it's a group of tweens, grown adults, etc.. Then yea, they should wait in line like everyone else.
But if kids are involved, especially young ones, don't even unless ulyouve been there done that.

I guess we're gonna roll then. Because if you think it's okay for YOUR kids who have not been standing in line to go past MY kids who have ... yeah, there's going to be a problem.

If you're kids are too young to wait in line, don't get on the ride. If too many rides fall into that category, pick another spot to vacation. plan your Fastpasses better. Go to Legoland. But don't think for a second -- and don't try to convince me or anyone else -- that it's okay that YOUR kids be more entertained while THEIR kids wait in a line. The logic doesn't hold, and there really is no way to justify it.

 

[smidgy]

There is nothing to disagree about. If one person per group holds their place in line as opposed to all members of the group actually being in line, you have to get the same result. It cannot be any other way. Let's say that each person takes 5 seconds to board. If all 4 people wait in line, then it takes 20 seconds for the group to board. If one person holds their place in line, and the other three join the line at the boarding area, it still takes this group 20 seconds to board. 20=20. No matter how you try to play with the numbers, this equation is immutable. If it takes an hour to board 1,000 people, it doesn't matter if those 1,000 people waited in line or came into the line at the last moment. As long as everyone does so in their ordinal place and doesn't try to move ahead of people who were in front of them, you cannot get a different result.

and so..... in response to what I said? ITA with that it takes the same amount of time for 4 people to load a ride, whether all 4 are in the queue together, or only 1 in is the queue and the other 3 are elsewhere..joining up later. not rocket science..
ok.. now what about what I said? i.e, the estimated wait time when a person makes a decision to enter a standby time. the only way for your scenario to be fair is if each line holder reports to the CM at the line entrance how many in his party will ACTUALLY be riding. and wears some sort of placard stating this.

 

[JimmyV]

.I just don't get to be privy to that info! my point is the rest of all those families are not counted when they put up the estimated wait time. if it's a shorter line, I cannot see those bodies I am actually behind.

You don't need to be able to calculate the wait time. Disney does it for you. If only one person per group waits in line, Disney simply needs to calculate the average group size and multiply that by the number of seconds per person to board, and then post that as the wait time. For example, if the average group size is 2.8 people and it takes each guest 5 seconds to board, and there are 100 people in line, then Disney will post a wait time of 280 virtual people in line times 5 seconds each. This is exactly the same wait time as if all 280 people were actually in line. So when you see a posted wait time of 25 minutes, you can trust it, same as now.

 

[smidgy]

If I got my kids.. We're gonna role if you tell me I can't 'hold a spot' for them while hubby entertains them elsewhere.

If it's a group of tweens, grown adults, etc.. Then yea, they should wait in line like everyone else.
But if kids are involved, especially young ones, don't even unless ulyouve been there done that.

having little children does not make you special at disneyworld.. almost everyone has little children there. just like flights to orlando. they usually announce there will be no preboarding for families with children because this fligth is to orlando and most of the passengers are families with children.

 

[JimmyV]

now what about what I said? i.e, the estimated wait time when a person makes a decision to enter a standby time. the only way for your scenario to be fair is if each line holder reports to the CM at the line entrance how many in his party will ACTUALLY be riding. and wears some sort of placard stating this.

The estimated wait time doesn't change. It is simply a calculation of the number of people in line times the size of an average group times the amount of time it takes to board, Disney does this for you. This is really easy math. Right now, Disney knows that if the line reaches a certain lamp post, the wait is 30 minutes. In the placeholder scenario, if the line reaches some closer lamp post, the wait will be 30 minutes. Except now, the telltale lampost is 75% closer to the boarding area. This is 4th grade math. Disney can do that.