Let's talk cars

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

There really should have been a shift to new less expensive cars for everyone in a free-for-all explosion and the fact it didn't really happen is just wonky.

It's been a while (pre-pandemic) where the shift in the U.S. was to stop manufacturing sedans and instead SUV and trucks. Your lower cost cars were most likely going to be those sedans. I call it a self-fulfilling prophecy here because true people were wanting more SUVs and trucks (I mean we need an SUV right now) but sedans still have their purposes too. However, if you remove slowly that from the market it's easy to say "Americans only want trucks and SUVs" well sure an increase in those wanting to be purchased but much more so if that's all that will be made.

They have seemed to bring in a middle ground between SUV and sedans with the cross-overs. Back in 2021 my husband really liked a Mitsubishi Outlander which is categorized as a compact cross-over SUV. It had a third row but that row was completely unusable but for toddlers lol so you'd have to take that into consideration as realistically 7 people aren't really going to fit. The other car we had looked at was a Hyundai Santa Fe which is categorized as a mid-size cross-over SUV. It does not have a third row but seats more realistically 5 people.

In any case it's just been a pattern over time that the cars have gotten more and more expensive. I think some of the bells and whistles also impact that because the safety features and requirements that are often tech related but still I too wish for economical choices.

 

[firefly_ris]

Still, why are there no cares in the moderate space 2 years later? To quote Liz Lemon, "What the what?"

The Maverick we ordered was $23k for a brand new, small size hybrid pickup style vehicle that can seat 5, but the issue is Ford cannot meet demand for the number of orders. I don't know if this is happening with other moderately priced vehicles but it's definitely a factor with the Maverick. They had to close order banks after 2 days and even with that they still can't meet demand. There are still 2022 orders that never got built. We own an F-150 which serves specific purposes for us but the Maverick would be an excellent high MPG commuter vehicle for my husband and can still be useful to boot. Hyundai Santa Cruz is its main competitor, but I find it unappealing to look at.

 

[mrodgers]

In any case it's just been a pattern over time that the cars have gotten more and more expensive. I think some of the bells and whistles also impact that because the safety features and requirements that are often tech related but still I too wish for economical choices.

Need to go back to buying what you want, not spending $12,000 more for garbage you don't want because you want the upgraded radio. I bought used, but a 2nd tier model because of what I wanted and all the features that made it $3k more I actually paid $100 for an OSB device to disable it all. If I wanted to listen to the sound system, that would have been another $5000 at least and a whole bunch more features I would have needed to disable.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Need to go back to buying what you want, not spending $12,000 more for garbage you don't want because you want the upgraded radio. I bought used, but a 2nd tier model because of what I wanted and all the features that made it $3k more I actually paid $100 for an OSB device to disable it all. If I wanted to listen to the sound system, that would have been another $5000 at least and a whole bunch more features I would have needed to disable.

That actually wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about things like mandatory back up cameras, crash related safety features, then newer stuff like 360 cameras all around the vehicle (which I would agree aren't fully necessary), side curtain airbags, displays (which are incredibly common in vehicles now), etc. Much more the things that newer cars have that older cars don't which will drive up the cost just in that. Many cars these days are controlled by computers which has its downsides really but then again upsides to sensors and stuff (even as annoying as some can be).

I was going at it from a historical standpoint of increasing costs. My car doesn't even have recirculating air lol and it has a cassette player (although a disc changer was installed in the trunk like is common for my car). Many cars these days don't have CD players anymore either so I skipped that I guess since I didn't get a new car between 2005 and now.

On a side note one thing we did find is that it is actually harder to find vehicles where even the base model doesn't have leather seats. Instead of it being cloth or leather it's now seems to be a lot of what type of leather such that the high end models have more luxurious leather. Sure you can still find cloth seats I think the Rogue we test drove as a 2nd tier model still had cloth seats but it's harder to find the more time goes on. That will also add to the costs.

ETA: corrected word

 

[barkley]

i am thankful that we put minimal mileage on our vehicles. we have a 2007 limited edition ford truck with less than 60K in miles (we stopped taking it on dealership lots prepandemic b/c we would immediatly be circled by sales staff trying to entice us to sell it). our 2013 escape has around 50K in miles. if i have my way we will never need to purchase another vehicle (i have no desire for an electric b/c it will be beyond my lifespan before the infrastructure to reasonably charge one would be available where i live).

 

[firefly_ris]

Need to go back to buying what you want, not spending $12,000 more for garbage you don't want because you want the upgraded radio. I bought used, but a 2nd tier model because of what I wanted and all the features that made it $3k more I actually paid $100 for an OSB device to disable it all. If I wanted to listen to the sound system, that would have been another $5000 at least and a whole bunch more features I would have needed to disable.

It's very annoying but they know what they're doing. I really wanted the 2nd row captains chairs so the kids can pass through to the 3rd row like my old van was instead of moving the bench every single time which I was sure would get old after 2 days once I saw how that worked in the test drive vehicle. If I wanted the captain chairs I had to go up a trim. Then I disabled lane assistance and some other crap I don't want. All I wanted was the captains chair.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

It's very annoying but they know what they're doing. I really wanted the 2nd row captains chairs so the kids can pass through to the 3rd row like my old van was instead of moving the bench every single time which I was sure would get old after 2 days once I saw how that worked in the test drive vehicle. If I wanted the captain chairs I had to go up a trim. Then I disabled lane assistance and some other crap I don't want. All I wanted was the captains chair.

Oh we ran into that as well. It was more for the cars we were looking at that the trim kit that had the captain's chairs was like the highest end which would come with uber nice all black interior with buttery soft leather (seriously that would be the description lol) and some other stuff. They do seem to package a lot of stuff together not always logical things together but you're right they know what they are doing.

 

[Skippy918]

We currently have 2 2016 vehicles which are fine and then we inherited his deceased mom’s 2011 vehicle. we’ll probably sell the 2011 once dh can change the title after probate happens. We don’t need 3 cars. It will still be awhile before my oldest starts driving.

 

[Skippy918]

I just ran a KBB on my car and can sell it for slightly less than I paid for it almost 7 years ago.

 

[LuvOrlando]

It's been a while (pre-pandemic) where the shift in the U.S. was to stop manufacturing sedans and instead SUV and trucks. Your lower cost cars were most likely going to be those sedans. I call it a self-fulfilling prophecy here because true people were wanting more SUVs and trucks (I mean we need an SUV right now) but sedans still have their purposes too. However, if you remove slowly that from the market it's easy to say "Americans only want trucks and SUVs" well sure an increase in those wanting to be purchased but much more so if that's all that will be made.

They have seemed to bring in a middle ground between SUV and sedans with the cross-overs. Back in 2021 my husband really liked a Mitsubishi Outlander which is categorized as a compact cross-over SUV. It had a third row but that row was completely unusable but for toddlers lol so you'd have to take that into consideration as realistically 7 people aren't really going to fit. The other car we had looked at was a Hyundai Santa Fe which is categorized as a mid-size cross-over SUV. It does not have a third row but seats more realistically 5 people.

In any case it's just been a pattern over time that the cars have gotten more and more expensive. I think some of the bells and whistles also impact that because the safety features and requirements that are often tech related but still I too wish for economical choices.

I hear that, we became an SUV family for no other reason than safety in winter highway driving with 18 wheelers. People in places without snow might not know this but if you are traveling at highway speeds alongside of a big truck that truck will often make some kind of a draft bubble around itself that exeterts itself on the smaller vehicles traveling alongside. I would bet there is a technical name for this effect but I frankly have no idea what it is called, only that it sent my DH in our Accord into a literal tailspin on a highway turning him all the way around facing oncoming traffic in rush hour that nearly left me a widow. When my kids were babies they were driving with me in a sudden thunderstorm and the same thing caused me to hydroplane a good 50 feet on the same highway in a large sedan, but thankfully my vehicle just stayed aligned with the truck until it caught its own traction again. We have a Civic that I really do prefer driving because it is so much easier to control & park but I do avoid it in bad weather and if I must drive it I avoid the highways if there is so much as a hint of rain, it hydroplanes way too fast even on a mild turn compared to a hefty vehicle like a SUV. Now IF there was a way to balance safety in a smaller vehicle I would be all over it but I am unwilling to give up safety for a lighter more fuel efficient vehicle. Not sure what the solution is but in principle I am not in love with SUVS, I am, however, married to safety & hoping this can be sorted soon. I'd imagine most of the car market is also stubborn over safety issues because even if all the cars got smaller the trucks are still there on the road with us.

I think the thing that happened with midsize is they got too light to have the safety effects people crave so we all just self sorted into those who wanted economy and those who wanted safety.

 

[tvguy]

The Maverick we ordered was $23k for a brand new, small size hybrid pickup style vehicle that can seat 5, but the issue is Ford cannot meet demand for the number of orders. I don't know if this is happening with other moderately priced vehicles but it's definitely a factor with the Maverick. They had to close order banks after 2 days and even with that they still can't meet demand. There are still 2022 orders that never got built. We own an F-150 which serves specific purposes for us but the Maverick would be an excellent high MPG commuter vehicle for my husband and can still be useful to boot. Hyundai Santa Cruz is its main competitor, but I find it unappealing to look at.

The Ford dealers here have Mavericks on the lot, all for $10,000 over sticker price.

 

[tvguy]

My car doesn't even have recirculating air lol and it has a cassette player (although a disc changer was installed in the trunk like is common for my car). Many cars these days don't have CD players anymore either so I skipped that I guess since I didn't get a new car between 2005 and now.

Lord, even my 1974 Ford Pinto had recirculating air as a setting on the ac.

 

[tvguy]

It's very annoying but they know what they're doing. I really wanted the 2nd row captains chairs so the kids can pass through to the 3rd row like my old van was instead of moving the bench every single time which I was sure would get old after 2 days once I saw how that worked in the test drive vehicle. If I wanted the captain chairs I had to go up a trim. Then I disabled lane assistance and some other crap I don't want. All I wanted was the captains chair.

That is interesting. When I bought my last Suburban I had a hard time finding one that didn't have Captains chairs in the front and middle. I wanted three bench seats. If I wanted to carry only 7 people, I would have bought a mini-van. I wanted to be able to carry 9 people and all their stuff. And my wife's previous SUV, finding cloth seats was impossible because Ford was offering leather as a free upgrade, so all the dealers ordered leather.

 

[firefly_ris]

That is interesting. When I bought my last Suburban I had a hard time finding one that didn't have Captains chairs in the front and middle. I wanted three bench seats. If I wanted to carry only 7 people, I would have bought a mini-van. I wanted to be able to carry 9 people and all their stuff. And my wife's previous SUV, finding cloth seats was impossible because Ford was offering leather as a free upgrade, so all the dealers ordered leather.

Yep. Same thing with the Kia Telluride (another impossible to find car for a long time) -- only higher trims have captain chairs.

 

[firefly_ris]

The Ford dealers here have Mavericks on the lot, all for $10,000 over sticker price.

Yeah there have been a couple around here, but I'm not paying that. Somebody is though because they move.

 

[barkley]

We currently have 2 2016 vehicles which are fine and then we inherited his deceased mom’s 2011 vehicle. we’ll probably sell the 2011 once dh can change the title after probate happens. We don’t need 3 cars. It will still be awhile before my oldest starts driving.

have you checked what your insurance would be with and without the 2011? we had 3 vehicles at one point and sold one off only to find it would have been less expensive to hold on to it (yearly registration was less than the increase in insurance). when i inquired of our current insurer how much our insurance would run if my oldest got their own insurance on their car (so again 2 vs. 3) it would increase our rates as well. multi car discounts can be substantial.

it might be worth it to investigate if holding on to it until your oldest is ready to drive might save some money (and you could always sell/trade in at that point).

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

have you checked what your insurance would be with and without the 2011? we had 3 vehicles at one point and sold one off only to find it would have been less expensive to hold on to it (yearly registration was less than the increase in insurance). when i inquired of our current insurer how much our insurance would run if my oldest got their own insurance on their car (so again 2 vs. 3) it would increase our rates as well. multi car discounts can be substantial.

it might be worth it to investigate if holding on to it until your oldest is ready to drive might save some money (and you could always sell/trade in at that point).

When I worked at the insurance company it could be like that too. Basically it was "spreading of the risk" that would go into why having 2 drivers and 3 cars could be less expensive than 2 drivers and 2 cars. With 2 drivers and 2 cars the assumption is each driver is usually driving one of those cars all the time but adding another vehicle (or even more than that) means at any given time one of the vehicles won't be driven. You'll still have comp risks (like things that can happen in your garage, carport, etc) but not quite the same as being out and out driven.

 

[mrodgers]

I hear that, we became an SUV family for no other reason than safety in winter highway driving with 18 wheelers. People in places without snow might not know this but if you are traveling at highway speeds alongside of a big truck that truck will often make some kind of a draft bubble around itself that exeterts itself on the smaller vehicles traveling alongside. I would bet there is a technical name for this effect but I frankly have no idea what it is called, only that it sent my DH in our Accord into a literal tailspin on a highway turning him all the way around facing oncoming traffic in rush hour that nearly left me a widow. When my kids were babies they were driving with me in a sudden thunderstorm and the same thing caused me to hydroplane a good 50 feet on the same highway in a large sedan, but thankfully my vehicle just stayed aligned with the truck until it caught its own traction again. We have a Civic that I really do prefer driving because it is so much easier to control & park but I do avoid it in bad weather and if I must drive it I avoid the highways if there is so much as a hint of rain, it hydroplanes way too fast even on a mild turn compared to a hefty vehicle like a SUV. Now IF there was a way to balance safety in a smaller vehicle I would be all over it but I am unwilling to give up safety for a lighter more fuel efficient vehicle. Not sure what the solution is but in principle I am not in love with SUVS, I am, however, married to safety & hoping this can be sorted soon. I'd imagine most of the car market is also stubborn over safety issues because even if all the cars got smaller the trucks are still there on the road with us.

I think the thing that happened with midsize is they got too light to have the safety effects people crave so we all just self sorted into those who wanted economy and those who wanted safety.

Everything you stated there is 100% fault with the tires and nothing to do with the different styles of vehicles. If you don't have snow tires, your 2WD car is dangerous. If you have snow tires, your 2WD car is better than the SUV with regular All-season tires they come with. If you hydroplane, it is because the tire can not channel enough water away from the tread of the tire.

Tire selection is the variable you are missing when you say "if there is a way to balance safety...." The most important safety decision you can make is making a tire selection.

 

[Skippy918]

have you checked what your insurance would be with and without the 2011? we had 3 vehicles at one point and sold one off only to find it would have been less expensive to hold on to it (yearly registration was less than the increase in insurance). when i inquired of our current insurer how much our insurance would run if my oldest got their own insurance on their car (so again 2 vs. 3) it would increase our rates as well. multi car discounts can be substantial.

it might be worth it to investigate if holding on to it until your oldest is ready to drive might save some money (and you could always sell/trade in at that point).

When I added the car, the rates went up. We don’t have room in the garage for a 3rd vehicle so it’s parked on the driveway. It will be at least 2-3 years before my son drives.
we also don’t know what’s going to happen with probate either. My mil had a lot of debt.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Everything you stated there is 100% fault with the tires and nothing to do with the different styles of vehicles. If you don't have snow tires, your 2WD car is dangerous. If you have snow tires, your 2WD car is better than the SUV with regular All-season tires they come with. If you hydroplane, it is because the tire can not channel enough water away from the tread of the tire.

Tire selection is the variable you are missing when you say "if there is a way to balance safety...." The most important safety decision you can make is making a tire selection.

No, that's not true. I am very safety minded so the first thing I do is put the best tires I can on a car & actually upgrade headlights plus windshield wipers which seem to be spots automakers skimp. In fact, our 02 has tires that are easily more valuable than the car The tires on the Civic absolutely 100% help but they didn't go as far as I had hoped.
The tire change just upped the vehicle from baby Bambi on roller skates to Bambi taking his first steps, an improvement but nowhere near the reliability I feel in my Jeep, the vehicles are miles apart in this regard. This is a divide I will not tolerate in bad weather and judging by the fact people won't let go of the beefy vehicles it would seem I am not the only person who feels this way. Moderate cars need to be better with safety. They were made lighter as the easy answer to increased fuel efficiency but gave up safety along the way, they need to go back to the design board IMO. I noticed Consumer Reports now weighs greenness into the ratings to counter the safety problem, it ain't fooling nobody when all you need to do is sit in one or drive it. Tires alone don't cut it unless you live in a desert or very hot dry place, which explains some things based on regional behaviors.

There need to be options in the moderate range and the fact they aren't showing up tells me that the automakers are not free market minded & that is a significant problem.