Let's revisit the "new" booking rules

[KAT4DISNEY]

Yes, and it wasn't any different than when you had to call day by day, was it? I guess I still fail to see what the change accomplished.

Diane I also had the same problems with the booking changes when they were made. And was told the same thing that it wouldn't cause problems. I've now been shut out on two reservations at the 11 month mark. Not expressing any poor me but it has happened. AKV Concierge studio for early Nov and BLT Standard 2BR for early Dec. Two expectedly difficult reservations. Honestly I didn't expected the standard view to be so tough - that was supposed to be MK view but I've learned DVCer's are leaning towards thrifty at BLT.

It hasn't been just me with some problems under the new system but there were people that used to get shut out day by day too.

However - for all of my getting shut out by the +7 I do see the problems with day by day booking and having stranded days. That doesn't happen with the new system. Personally I moved on to another category and waitlisted for my days. The AKV did come thru and I elected to not waitlist the BLT Standard. I tried a couple of days for BLT Standard then decided to spring for MK view. I immediately had my days and knew I'd have them for the whole trip once I accomplished booking the first day. And added a day after waiting a couple to decide if the more expensive stay meant a shorter stay for us. That's the trump over the day by day that I see. If I get the first day I'm set and in most of my cases I wouldn't have to call back day by day.

What I liked about the old way was that I could book my entire trip of 10 nights at one time. Now, I book 7 nights, then call and add the 8th night, etc. until I get all ten nights.

The old way, I knew when I called that I would get all ten nights or not. The new way, I can get seven, but if I wait to call three days later, my last three nights might be booked already.

If you waited to call 3 days later as long as the exact 11 month day was available the final 7 days would be also. I think the first 3 days would be in the most jeopardy but you would have known immediately if you had your entire reservation in one call. But, under the new system you also could have accomplished the booking in two calls. On the opening of the 11 month window and then one more call on any of days 4-6 to book days 8-10.

Is walking a reservation something I need to even concern myself with if I want a Tree House Villa for the end of August in 2011?

I know the end of August is not a super-busy time, but I really really want my THV (stayed last August, it's awesome). They are in high demand because anybody that wants a two bedroom will choose a three bedroom THV over a two bedroom at SSR.

Personally I'd feel ok with not walking for that time frame but that's just me.

I guess that in the end I've ended up in favor of knowing if I have my reservation immediately or if I have to go with a backup opposed to the possibility of not getting all the nights with day by day. And walkers don't bother me any more than day by day did before when you were actually supposed to call on your check-out day. Both were/are allowed under the systems so that's fine. If it really is walkers that affect my reservation I'll have a decent enough chance with a waitlist as long as they walk on. Another advantage of the new system is it doesn't require day by day calls unless you're walking a short 2-3 days stay. I don't know if people who are really starting their vacation a day or two ahead of me deserve the room more than I do - ie, the +7 but I'll accept it. My vacations aren't made by a particular room though - there are lots of DVC accommodations I find enjoyable so mostly I just want a room of some sort! That's my feelings at the moment even with having had problems.

And I reserve the right to change my mind again should I choose to!

 

[BroganMc]

I'm waiting until Friday (the start of my 11 mos booking window) to try for two studios at SSR 12/29-1/2/11 (4 days over NYE). One of those studios will be a HA room for me.

It shouldn't need to be walked and should be available. I'll also check on HA studio availability at MK. See how that goes.

If it works then I conclude walking doesn't affect me, at least as much as it effects those under 15 rooms in a category.

The one thing that worries me is walking abuse (and use I do find it as an abuse of the system) at the smaller resorts. My BLT test will be interesting.

I don't know if walking was to blame but I called at 11 mos for a standard view studio at BW for early December (Sunday, Dec 5 actually). By the time I called that day (10am?), they had no studios or 1bedrooms left in standard view. I was bumped up to the more expensive Preferred View (Boardwalks were gone too).

 

[dianeschlicht]

Heck, they just need to go back to the old ways so no one gets priority over any one else.

I agree!

 

[dianeschlicht]

I'm waiting until Friday (the start of my 11 mos booking window) to try for two studios at SSR 12/29-1/2/11 (4 days over NYE). One of those studios will be a HA room for me.

It shouldn't need to be walked and should be available. I'll also check on HA studio availability at MK. See how that goes.

If it works then I conclude walking doesn't affect me, at least as much as it effects those under 15 rooms in a category.

The one thing that worries me is walking abuse (and use I do find it as an abuse of the system) at the smaller resorts. My BLT test will be interesting.

I don't know if walking was to blame but I called at 11 mos for a standard view studio at BW for early December (Sunday, Dec 5 actually). By the time I called that day (10am?), they had no studios or 1bedrooms left in standard view. I was bumped up to the more expensive Preferred View (Boardwalks were gone too).

I'm not at all surprised about the standards being gone for that time. We often have seen those be gone by noon WITHOUT walking. Frankly, I'll go you one step further and say I think walking IS abuse of the system to begin with.

 

[bobbiwoz]

Heck, they just need to go back to the old ways so no one gets priority over any one else.

I certainly wish this were the case! I understand that people like booking the whole week, if that's what they want. No one wants the case of having to move in the middle of a stay, but with a day at a time 11 months out, we all are on a level playing field. I don't want the whole week of Christmas to New Years. I sure hope I get something.

Bobbi

 

[DenLo]

I guess I don't really see the difference in walking a reservation now on the new system and the old way of calling each day to get the week at a resort you don't want and then calling at the 7 month for each day to get the days you want at another resort.

Both types of "walking" reserve villas you don't want and keeps other members from reserving those rooms.

And as far as charging for making, changing or canceling reservations to prevent walking. That won't change a thing. If people can afford to stay at WDW during a Premier season some extra fees won't really stop them. It might hurt those that are really budgeting all year to be able to come to WDW on their points. And heaven forbid that they might have to make any changes then that will cost them too.

Also how can you really be sure someone is walking a reservation, maybe they are indecisive, or their family members change the dates they can go, or health problems occur? There could be thousands of reasons that people could appear to be walking a reservation.

I think that making everyone call each day to make a reservation seems a bit inconvenient to me. I think it is much easier to call once and be able to a make a reservation for 7 days. I can't wait until the new online reservation system is up and running and we'll be able to make our reservations that way. And then only call MS when I have a complicated situation or a special need.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

I guess I don't really see the difference in walking a reservation now on the new system and the old way of calling each day to get the week you want and then calling at the 7 month for each day to get the days you want at another resort.

Both types of "walking" reserve villas you don't want and keeps other members from reserving those rooms.

No, with the old day by day method you only had to book the days you actually were going to use.
If you wanted to switch at 7 months, you can opt to walk that ressie also. (There was an earlier discussion on the merits of walking at 7 months.)

Also how can you really be sure someone is walking a reservation, maybe they are indecisive, or their family members change the dates they can go, or health problems occur? There could be thousands of reasons that people could appear to be walking a reservation.

Yup.. Another reason the new system is awful.

I think that making everyone call each day to make a reservation seems a bit inconvenient to me. I think it is much easier to call once and be able to a make a reservation for 7 days.

This is a commonly believed myth. Nobody ever had to call everyday for a reservation. Under the old method you could just call 11 months from check-out, and book your entire reservation.. No matter how many days you were booking.

MG

 

[tjkraz]

The difference was 7 days of calling everyday instead of 14

I'm not sure why that would make you laugh, Diane, because the calls really do add up. Consider first that most reservations are not for 14 days and can now be completed in just one phone call.

6 nights = one call
7 nights = one call
8 nights = two calls

Big difference when you add it up.

There are about 4000 DVC rooms now when you count all of the lockoffs separately. If just 5% of members went from booking day-by-day to just making a single call, you're talking tens-of-thousands of calls eliminated per year.

4000 rooms X 52 weeks X 5 phone calls eliminated (assume week booking went from 7 calls to 2 calls) X 5% of members doing DBD = 52,000 calls eliminated

And that's using a pretty modest estimate of 5% of members doing DBD. It also doesn't take into account multiple reservations for the same stay (book Home at 11 months, try to change to non-Home at 7 months.)

It may have been much higher than that. That was the big problem with DBD--it grew out of control. Two years ago forum members were were recommending DBD calls for just about every date and every DVC resort. Even Member Services reps were recommending DBD.

I have no doubt that walking is growing, but it's nowhere near what DBD was a couple years ago. And even without DBD and walking, most people are getting the rooms they want.

DVC will never go back to DBD due to the costs involved. If anything, walking will force them to add more rules like rigid cancellation policies or reservation change fees.

I too dislike the new system. Under the old system, everyone had an equally fair chance to book the villa of their choice. This new system allows for the circumventing of rules by those with enough points and time to walk a reservation.

I'm not sure where "time" comes into it. If you had the time for day-by-day bookings, you should have the time for walking.

DBD had its own problems. In addition to having to make those phone calls every single morning, there was always the risk of being beaten out by other members. To over simplify, if there is just one villa available and you and I are both trying to book it for a week, here is what could easily happen with DBD:

You get through first and book Sunday
I get through first the next day and book Monday
You get Tuesday and Wednesday
I get Thursday and Friday

I'm not sure that's an improvement over being guaranteed the entire stay (up to 7 nights) in a single phone call. It's certainly a philosophical debate, but I tend to favor the method which will get people their entire stay in one call rather than first-in, first-out.

For those few periods when DBD bookings were actually useful, it often lead to gaps in the trip such as I outlined above. Then you have members dealing with the uncertainty of the waitlist, playing a game of Chicken with folks holding the nights they need to complete the trip. Or you have people opting for split-stays which increases dues cost to members.

Using my DVC membership should not be this complicated, but since we typically visit in early December, it seems that I'm stuck dealing with the perils of the new system. Right now we were able to secure what we needed (9 nights in a savannah view studio at Kidani), but we hope to change to BLT or BCV at the 7 month mark. I hope that works out for us!

Glad to hear the system is working and you got what you wanted at 11 months. I wouldn't hold out any hope for BLT or BCV at 7 months in early-December. No matter what reservation system is in place, those rooms are almost certainly all taken by owners well before the 7 month window.

Remind me, when did this booking change go into effect? Was it before or after NYE bookings last year? If after, maybe we (and MS) are seeing the flaw in the scheme.

The new system was implemented in June 2008. It has been nearly two years now. This is the second round of 11-month holiday bookings under the Arrival + 7 system.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

I'm not sure why that would make you laugh, Diane, because the calls really do add up. Consider first that most reservations are not for 14 days and can now be completed in just one phone call.

6 nights = one call
7 nights = one call
8 nights = two calls

Big difference when you add it up.

Tim, I know you know better..
They always could be completed in one call.. Even if the ressie was for 14 days.

Foe anyone else who may not know.. You were never required to call day by day. That was only a personal choice.

MG

 

[tjkraz]

Tim, I know you know better..
They always could be completed in one call.. Even if the ressie was for 14 days.

Foe anyone else who may not know.. You were never required to call day by day. That was only a personal choice.

MG

And today you can wait until 11 months minus one week and book an entire 14-day stay at once. In that sense there really is no difference and I don't know why you're pretending that DBD was better in that regard.

Either approach puts you at a competitive disadvantage to people who either were willing to call DBD or people who are "walking". But I still favor the system which does more to guarantee consecutive days for longer trips, and reduces the overall volume of phone traffic.

DBD bookings had become so widespread that the costs were spiraling out of control. Used to be that the entire month of January had MS wait times of 90+ minutes during the early morning hours. So far I have yet to see any reports of long wait times at MS this year. I don't think it's a coincidence that these intense walking debates tend to happen 11/7 months from a high-demand period like December/New Years, or that they specifically address low volume units like AKV Concierge. For most other dates and units, the current system works just fine.

By comparison, two years ago people were being advised to call Day by Day to book BCV for May at 11 months. What we've since discovered is that members just don't book 280+ villas within a few days' time year-round.

Walking is not nearly as commonplace today as DBD was then. But every time I see one of these threads, and assume that even more people are going to start walking due to that fear, uncertainty and doubt, I wonder how long it will be before DVC adds more restrictions to cancellations and changes. That will certainly happen long before DVC gives any consideration to returning to a high-cost FIFO system.

 

[dismedvc]

It still seems to me all this debate would go away if the points were set correctly. If there are nights that are almost impossible to get at 11 months without playing the "games" that are being discussed here, then the points for those nights are too low, and raising the points would solve the problem.

 

[schwenksvillemouse]

Walking is not nearly as commonplace today as DBD was then. But every time I see one of these threads, and assume that even more people are going to start walking due to that fear, uncertainty and doubt, I wonder how long it will be before DVC adds more restrictions to cancellations and changes. That will certainly happen long before DVC gives any consideration to returning to a high-cost FIFO system.

I totally agree with this. I remember first reading about DBD calling and thinking boy I better start doing this even though we tend to travel at off peak times. I had never even thought about "walking" a reservation, but again I'm thinking maybe I should try this for our trip to HHI in the summer of 2011.

I mentioned it before, and I'll say it again. Start charging for reservation changes and the behavior will change. I'd bet good money that outside of high peak time windows (NYE, etc) the need to walk or call DBD isn't needed.

 

[tjkraz]

It still seems to me all this debate would go away if the points were set correctly. If there are nights that are almost impossible to get at 11 months without playing the "games" that are being discussed here, then the points for those nights are too low, and raising the points would solve the problem.

For the most part, I agree.

However some of the low-volume units are likely to be a problem unless DVC chooses to really blow the roof off of the point charts. AKV Concierge, Vero beach houses and OKW Grand Villas come immediately to mind since there are so few. SSR Treehouses, BLT MK and Standard views, and AKV Value are also candidates.

I know AKV Concierge had an across-the-board increase in the 2011 numbers. Didn't look at the others listed here.

Early-December will also be a sore point until it has seasonal adjustments.

I guess it just depends on how far DVC wishes to take the adjustments. It's difficult to predict how members will react to any given change. Some (myself included) have already speculated that DVC over did it on the weekend decreases. How far up can they take early-December before members start shunning it in favor of some other reduced period?

You would think they need at least 3 years worth of data after every change to adjust further. I don't think any of us wants to see the charts change every single year, even if that means living with some inequalities for a few years between adjustments.

 

[LIFERBABE]

It still seems to me all this debate would go away if the points were set correctly. If there are nights that are almost impossible to get at 11 months without playing the "games" that are being discussed here, then the points for those nights are too low, and raising the points would solve the problem.

That's punitive to small point owners. You are suggesting they be priced out of the market for NYE. That would create a new debate and much more heated than anything you have seen here.

There are rooms that will be impossible to get no matter what booking system is at work as TJ said. There are 6 MK View GV and 10 Concierge units at AKV and 60 THV (all not declared yet). You can price those rooms at 200 points per night and there would still be competition for them among the most elite group of members with points to spare. I'll take my chances with the walkers rather than pay some enormous amount of points for peak times to avoid it.

I also agree that the discussion about walking is a self fulfilling prophecy. The more we discuss it and explain it, the more angst it causes and the more people that will use it the next time and for times they dont really need to use. The same thing happened with DBD. DBD became so widespread that the phones were jammed for hours for weeks at a time.

Just like the new 2011 charts. We as members complain about the system and demand DVD do something about it. Then when they do, we dont like it and feel injured. If we ask DVD to fix the walking issue, be prepared for alot more rigidity and fees placed upon all members, not just the walkers.
We all pay more for the flexibility of DVC and then we try to force it to be more rigid when we dont get what we want.

We are not always going to get what we want and that is the bottom line.

 

[dismedvc]

That's punitive to small point owners. You are suggesting they be priced out of the market for NYE. That would create a new debate and much more heated than anything you have seen here.

Good point, changing the rules now would really cause an uproar. However, I am also priced out of a ticket to the Super Bowl because there are a limited number of seats, and I am not willing to pay the market price. I think Disney should operate the same way. Personally, I would rather see a market price and then decide if I want to pay it, as opposed to a lower price that I can rarely get because it is almost always sold out. JMO

There are rooms that will be impossible to get no matter what booking system is at work as TJ said. There are 6 MK View GV and 10 Concierge units at AKV and 60 THV (all not declared yet). You can price those rooms at 200 points per night and there would still be competition for them among the most elite group of members with points to spare. I'll take my chances with the walkers rather than pay some enormous amount of points for peak times to avoid it.

But it is your decision not to pay those points. Personally, I would love to see those who are willing pay 200 points for those nights do it, and even pay more if there is still "competition". The points on other nights would then have to be reduced for the rest of us in order to keep the total points the same.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

And today you can wait until 11 months minus one week and book an entire 14-day stay at once. In that sense there really is no difference and I don't know why you're pretending that DBD was better in that regard.

Either approach puts you at a competitive disadvantage to people who either were willing to call DBD or people who are "walking". But I still favor the system which does more to guarantee consecutive days for longer trips, and reduces the overall volume of phone traffic.

DBD bookings had become so widespread that the costs were spiraling out of control. Used to be that the entire month of January had MS wait times of 90+ minutes during the early morning hours. So far I have yet to see any reports of long wait times at MS this year. I don't think it's a coincidence that these intense walking debates tend to happen 11/7 months from a high-demand period like December/New Years, or that they specifically address low volume units like AKV Concierge. For most other dates and units, the current system works just fine.

By comparison, two years ago people were being advised to call Day by Day to book BCV for May at 11 months. What we've since discovered is that members just don't book 280+ villas within a few days' time year-round.

Walking is not nearly as commonplace today as DBD was then. But every time I see one of these threads, and assume that even more people are going to start walking due to that fear, uncertainty and doubt, I wonder how long it will be before DVC adds more restrictions to cancellations and changes. That will certainly happen long before DVC gives any consideration to returning to a high-cost FIFO system.

You can spin it anyway you want, but that's what it is --> Spin.

Fact- Under the old booking system every Member had an exactly equal chance of booking any given reservation.
Under the new system you can be locked out of any given reservation before the booking window even opens.

That is not opinion, speculation, or spin. It is a hard fact.

MG

 

[BroganMc]

You can spin it anyway you want, but that's what it is --> Spin.

Fact- Under the old booking system every Member had an exactly equal chance of booking any given reservation.
Under the new system you can be locked out of any given reservation before the booking window even opens.

That is not opinion, speculation, or spin. It is a hard fact.

MG

Quoted for truth.

Anyone who wanted just a short stay (like me wanting 4 days over NYE) is unfairly blocked by someone wanting 7 days. They, in effect, have a 3 day headstart on me the current method.

I'm guessing it doesn't bug someone until they encounter it firsthand.

As of now, not only are BLT MK View Grand Villas gone but so are Standard view BLT rooms. That's for all days up to 1/2/11. I don't even begin to make my ressie for two more days.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

I mentioned it before, and I'll say it again. Start charging for reservation changes and the behavior will change.

And that would be fair to those who are changing reservations for legit reasons?

I'd bet good money that outside of high peak time windows (NYE, etc) the need to walk or call DBD isn't needed.

What about the VB cottages, AKV concierge, VGC grand villas etc...??

MG

 

[dismedvc]

Quoted for truth.

Anyone who wanted just a short stay (like me wanting 4 days over NYE) is unfairly blocked by someone wanting 7 days. They, in effect, have a 3 day headstart on me the current method.

I'm guessing it doesn't bug someone until they encounter it firsthand.

As of now, not only are BLT MK View Grand Villas gone but so are Standard view BLT rooms. That's for all days up to 1/2/11. I don't even begin to make my ressie for two more days.

I feel your pain.

So next year are you tempted to do what I described in post 39?

If so, when will it end? The current sytem is fine for most nights, but it seems we need a different system for the busy times.
(unless of course they make the points economically correct so supply matches demand)

 

[bobbiwoz]

I have called and written Member Satisfaction team about this many times, and I will continue to do so. I think that the official postion is that "walking is not a problem."If you think it is, especially if you have called on the first day of your stay first thing in the AM and you've been blocked out of what you need, then please call and tell them.

I wrote in early December, explaining again that I was concerned about the reservation that I wanted over the New Years eve period. I don't have an unlimited supply of points available. I don't think a certain subset of members should be automatically removed from the pool of possible NYE night room occupants because some people are walking their reservation.

Bobbi