Let's revisit the "new" booking rules

[BroganMc]

I feel your pain.

So next year are you tempted to do what I described in post 39?

If so, when will it end? The current sytem is fine for most nights, but it seems we need a different system for the busy times.
(unless of course they make the points economically correct so supply matches demand)

I might for my early December trip. I'm switching my stay to use BWV and BLT and trying to economize on points a bit. But I'm not bothering with NYE next year. Both the 30th and 31st are on weekend nights. It's just too pricey for me then. Besides, I have Grand Gathering to arrange for Oct '11. I need to conserve points.

Other than that, I'm not a point walker. How can I oppose something on fairness grounds then do it myself? I'd rather lose out on a ressie and not spend any money on Disney. (Although my last trip over NYE, the only thing I paid for was food. I didn't buy one souvenir.)

 

[dismedvc]

I don't have an unlimited supply of points available.
Bobbi

Wow. If someone who indicated on the 1,000 point club thread they have 1,030 points feels this way, what chance do the rest of us have under the current system?

Nice to know it is not just the small point owners that are unhappy with the current system.

 

[tjkraz]

You can spin it anyway you want, but that's what it is --> Spin.

Fact- Under the old booking system every Member had an exactly equal chance of booking any given reservation.
Under the new system you can be locked out of any given reservation before the booking window even opens.

That is not opinion, speculation, or spin. It is a hard fact.

MG

It's not "spin" and I agree with your assessment. The problem is we apparently disagree on which system is fairer.

It's a Fact that there were increasing instances of members having gaps in their trip because they lost the game of day-by-day roulette. If you have 10 Concierge villas available for a given day and 30 people calling to obtain them, someone is going to lose. 20 someones are going to lose.

Under the old system getting a room for one night meant little because you had to spin the proverbial wheel 6 more times.

When you have 30 people wanting to book and only 10 rooms available, there are always going to be losers. How you decide to dole-out the rooms won't change the end result.

Personally I prefer a system that will give 10 people complete satisfaction--all 5 or 6 or 7 nights they are trying to book--rather than giving 30 people partial stays depending upon who happened to get through the phone queue quicker.

If DVC needs to tweak the current system to add cancellation penalties for people who are trying to "walk" reservations, I'm all for it. But I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that we are all better off going back to the days when people felt increasingly obligated to place 7 calls to reserve a 7-night stay, and ran the risk of being blocked out midway through their trip if they were unable to make that daily call at 9am eastern or had the misfortune of getting a DVC rep who just wasn't as quick as others.

 

[BroganMc]

It's not "spin" and I agree with your assessment. The problem is we apparently disagree on which system is fairer.

Personally I prefer a system that will give 10 people complete satisfaction--all 5 or 6 or 7 nights they are trying to book--rather than giving 30 people partial stays depending upon who happened to get through the phone queue quicker.

So in economic terms you're more of a point capitalist whereas Maistre Gracey is more a point socialist.

The few point/stay wealthy can get complete satisfaction vs. everyone can be equally disatisified/satisfied. I don't know which philosophy is more American.

 

[tjkraz]

So in economic terms you're more of a point capitalist whereas Maistre Gracey is more a point socialist.

The few point/stay wealthy get complete satisfaction vs. everyone is equally disatisified/satisfied.

The number of points owned doesn't play any role in my viewpoint. I would welcome any steps DVC wishes to take to eliminate walking. Going back to day-by-day bookings is certainly not the only way, nor is it even the most efficient way, to eliminate walking.

In many ways this reminds me of the old bible story about two women who bring a baby before King Solomon, both claiming to be the baby's mother. With neither woman willing to relent, Solomon orders the baby to be cut in half so each will be satisfied.

Similar to the baby's true mother, I'd rather see one member be able to book his entire 7-night stay--even if I end up on the losing end--rather than splitting the villas among multiple members who managed to get a single-night reservation by calling 11 months out.

 

[BroganMc]

Similar to the baby's true mother, I'd rather see one member be able to book his entire 7-night stay--even if I end up on the losing end--rather than splitting the villas among multiple members who managed to get a single-night reservation by calling 11 months out.

I think I'm more in the "everyone should have an equal shot" camp. while your philosophy works better for those insanely small number of rooms (i.e. AKV concierge and BLT MK view grand villa), it doesn't apply as easily to the smaller but more available categories (standard view & value rooms).

To take your example, it would be like Angelina Jolie always getting first crack at raising the baby because she is known to have the most resources to provide for it. Maybe us lesser folks could fair as well, even if we only get half our time with the child and have to split with another member. If we waitlisted, then maybe we'd ended up getting full time because one preferred weekdays and the other weekends.

I know for me, I prefer to begin my early December weekend with two days at BWV in a standard view studio (Fri & Sat) so I can fly in, enjoy the decorations and go to CP. Then I'd like to hop over to BLT (in lake view or standard for Sun-Wed) and soak up a Christmas Party and Magic Kingdom area decorations. Why should I be forced to play a game just to have the trip I'd prefer? Especially (and here's the point everyone including DVC MS is missing) with a DBD points timeshare system? We are supposed to be able to book single nights as we wish, not a whole week with set check-in days. That's for the other timeshare systems Disney supposedly improves upon.

 

[tjkraz]

I know for me, I prefer to begin my early December weekend with two days at BWV in a standard view studio (Fri & Sat) so I can fly in, enjoy the decorations and go to CP. Then I'd like to hop over to BLT (in lake view or standard for Sun-Wed) and soak up a Christmas Party and Magic Kingdom area decorations. Why should I be forced to play a game just to have the trip I'd prefer? Especially (and here's the point everyone including DVC MS is missing) with a DBD points timeshare system? We are supposed to be able to book single nights as we wish, not a whole week with set check-in days. That's for the other timeshare systems Disney supposedly improves upon.

What "game" are you referring to? I don't see why you would be any less inclined to getting your two nights at BWV or four nights at BLT than any other owner, regardless of the number of points owned.

If you want to arrive on 12/15, you can call on 1/15. It doesn't matter if you are booking a trip of 1 night or 7 consecutive nights starting on 12/15. All owners call the same day.

 

[bobbiwoz]

..
Nice to know it is not just the small point owners that are unhappy with the current system.

As soon as the system was established, I wondered what MS would do about people who would "walk" a reservation. I didn't have a word for it, but we were at a VB Beach House and I told my family to enjoy it, because it could be the last time we would get one because we only had 150 VB points. Now, I have been able to get another BC reservation, so that fear didn't materialized. However, as the weekday BC points increase so very much and the weekend points go down, I suppose walking one of those has become more likely.

I know there are people who disagree, but I do think the present system is not as egalitarian as I would like.

Bobbi

 

[dianeschlicht]

I'm not sure why that would make you laugh, Diane, because the calls really do add up. Consider first that most reservations are not for 14 days and can now be completed in just one phone call.

6 nights = one call
7 nights = one call
8 nights = two calls

Big difference when you add it up.

There are about 4000 DVC rooms now when you count all of the lockoffs separately. If just 5% of members went from booking day-by-day to just making a single call, you're talking tens-of-thousands of calls eliminated per year.

4000 rooms X 52 weeks X 5 phone calls eliminated (assume week booking went from 7 calls to 2 calls) X 5% of members doing DBD = 52,000 calls eliminated

And that's using a pretty modest estimate of 5% of members doing DBD. It also doesn't take into account multiple reservations for the same stay (book Home at 11 months, try to change to non-Home at 7 months.)

It may have been much higher than that. That was the big problem with DBD--it grew out of control. Two years ago forum members were were recommending DBD calls for just about every date and every DVC resort. Even Member Services reps were recommending DBD.

I have no doubt that walking is growing, but it's nowhere near what DBD was a couple years ago. And even without DBD and walking, most people are getting the rooms they want.

DVC will never go back to DBD due to the costs involved. If anything, walking will force them to add more rules like rigid cancellation policies or reservation change fees.



I'm not sure where "time" comes into it. If you had the time for day-by-day bookings, you should have the time for walking.

DBD had its own problems. In addition to having to make those phone calls every single morning, there was always the risk of being beaten out by other members. To over simplify, if there is just one villa available and you and I are both trying to book it for a week, here is what could easily happen with DBD:

You get through first and book Sunday
I get through first the next day and book Monday
You get Tuesday and Wednesday
I get Thursday and Friday

I'm not sure that's an improvement over being guaranteed the entire stay (up to 7 nights) in a single phone call. It's certainly a philosophical debate, but I tend to favor the method which will get people their entire stay in one call rather than first-in, first-out.

For those few periods when DBD bookings were actually useful, it often lead to gaps in the trip such as I outlined above. Then you have members dealing with the uncertainty of the waitlist, playing a game of Chicken with folks holding the nights they need to complete the trip. Or you have people opting for split-stays which increases dues cost to members.



Glad to hear the system is working and you got what you wanted at 11 months. I wouldn't hold out any hope for BLT or BCV at 7 months in early-December. No matter what reservation system is in place, those rooms are almost certainly all taken by owners well before the 7 month window.



The new system was implemented in June 2008. It has been nearly two years now. This is the second round of 11-month holiday bookings under the Arrival + 7 system.

Tim, would it surprise you if I told you I NEVER called day by day? I felt no need to when I knew no one else had the ability to book any earlier than I did for my check out day. Now with booking 7 days from check IN, I know that there are certain ressies I'm going to be shut out of if I don't at least consider "walking". Will I do it....probably not. I'll probably just complain about the fact that I got shut out exactly at my 11 month window instead. It all (calling day by day AND walking) just seems like both too much trouble and outside the "spirit" of the rule.

As for thinking Liferbabe's statement was funny, it did strike me that way. It made me laugh!

 

[dianeschlicht]

What "game" are you referring to? I don't see why you would be any less inclined to getting your two nights at BWV or four nights at BLT than any other owner, regardless of the number of points owned.

If you want to arrive on 12/15, you can call on 1/15. It doesn't matter if you are booking a trip of 1 night or 7 consecutive nights starting on 12/15. All owners call the same day.

Not really....Some might have booked those units all up a week or more ahead of her ability to book it.

 

[BroganMc]

What "game" are you referring to? I don't see why you would be any less inclined to getting your two nights at BWV or four nights at BLT than any other owner, regardless of the number of points owned.

If you want to arrive on 12/15, you can call on 1/15. It doesn't matter if you are booking a trip of 1 night or 7 consecutive nights starting on 12/15. All owners call the same day.

Well if this year is anything to judge by, when I called at exactly 11 mos to book a standard view studio at BW for the first Sunday in December guess what? They were all gone. All 1bedrooms and 2bedroom rooms too. So much for my Home Resort priority. BW view was gone too. But I was able to spend 3 points more for a lovely view of the Clown pool. Lucky me.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

It's a Fact that there were increasing instances of members having gaps in their trip because they lost the game of day-by-day roulette. If you have 10 Concierge villas available for a given day and 30 people calling to obtain them, someone is going to lose. 20 someones are going to lose.

Under the old system getting a room for one night meant little because you had to spin the proverbial wheel 6 more times.

Again, you make it sound as though you were required to call DBD.
Why not simply call at the end and avoid the wheel??

I think it's because some are afraid they will miss out if they don't call DBD.. Pretty much like the new system with walking. The only difference is with the old system if you couldn't book your entire ressie you could at least book part. The new system requires your first day to be available in order to book any part of it, and that's a big negative.. AND requires more calls to MS.

When you have 30 people wanting to book and only 10 rooms available, there are always going to be losers. How you decide to dole-out the rooms won't change the end result.

Ahh.. BUT under the old system all 30 would have the same opportunity to get the 10 rooms. Not always true with the new system.

Personally I prefer a system that will give 10 people complete satisfaction--all 5 or 6 or 7 nights they are trying to book--rather than giving 30 people partial stays depending upon who happened to get through the phone queue quicker.

Once again you're making the assumption that you MUST call DBD.
That argument doesn't hold water if you called at the end.

If DVC needs to tweak the current system to add cancellation penalties for people who are trying to "walk" reservations, I'm all for it. But I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that we are all better off going back to the days when people felt increasingly obligated to place 7 calls to reserve a 7-night stay, and ran the risk of being blocked out midway through their trip if they were unable to make that daily call at 9am eastern or had the misfortune of getting a DVC rep who just wasn't as quick as others.

I think some are feeling increasingly obligated to walk now that they are learning of the major flaws in the new system.

Well.. As you suggested earlier, will will agree to disagree.
MG

 

[dismedvc]

But I'm not bothering with NYE next year. Both the 30th and 31st are on weekend nights. It's just too pricey for me then. ...

I'm not a point walker. How can I oppose something on fairness grounds then do it myself? I'd rather lose out on a ressie

However, with the recent point changes NYE in a BLT LV studio is 38 points for Friday 12/31/10, but will be 32 points for Saturday 12/31/11.

Totally agree with your last point, although I am not sure that doesn't make us both idealistic "suckers"

 

[tjkraz]

Well if this year is anything to judge by, when I called at exactly 11 mos to book a standard view studio at BW for the first Sunday in December guess what? They were all gone. All 1bedrooms and 2bedroom rooms too. So much for my Home Resort priority. BW view was gone too. But I was able to spend 3 points more for a lovely view of the Clown pool. Lucky me.

A few thoughts:

1. If demand was so high that everything was booked before the 11-month window arrived, I'd say the odds of you getting all 4 nights calling day-by-day were also remote.

2. If this thread is to be believed, there are probably people "walking" reservations which include your dates. Addressing that issue would be more effective than returning to the old system.

3. Hopefully in another year or two the reallocations will help balance demand to a greater degree. Even better, DVC should increase the point cost for most of December so that these problems go away. It's almost laughable that we go through these issues every single year--particularly with early December. You don't hear about people getting blocked at 11 months for September bookings. There is a reason September is in Adventure season. Early-December should not be in the same season.

Again, you make it sound as though you were required to call DBD.
Why not simply call at the end and avoid the wheel??

...

Once again you're making the assumption that you MUST call DBD.
That argument doesn't hold water if you called at the end.

If you don't think DBD was necessary, then why is there a problem with the current system?

I don't understand how you can dismiss the notion of calling day-by-day and just say "call at the end" to book the entire trip, while suggesting that the current system is unworkable. They are essentially one in the same.

If, under the old system, you could have called 11 months from check-out and booked the desired reservation, then it should also be available 11 months from arrival date under the current configuration.

 

[tjkraz]

Tim, would it surprise you if I told you I NEVER called day by day?

Yes, it does surprise me a bit. Good for you! I have to admit that I bought into the hype a few times.

I think the current system has demonstrated that for the vast majority of resorts/views/dates, booking in one phone call works just fine regardless of whether the call occurs 11 months from the arrival date or the departure date.

I felt no need to when I knew no one else had the ability to book any earlier than I did for my check out day. Now with booking 7 days from check IN, I know that there are certain ressies I'm going to be shut out of if I don't at least consider "walking".

I don't agree with what you say here.

Let's say you wanted to book December 7-14 under the "old" system. You would call on January 14, which is 11 months from the departure date.

You claim that "no one else had the ability to book any earlier than [you] did", but that's only true for the night of December 13.

Ignoring all day-by-day bookings, people who were departing on December 8th would have called on January 8 to book the night of 12/7. That is one of the days you hope to secure.

People departing on December 9th would have also had access to your trip dates before you called. Same for people leaving on December 10, 11, 12 and 13.

Even if people followed the letter-of-the-law under either system, (no walking, no DBD) there were always other members who beat you to the punch.

The main difference I see for the current booking system is that people are beginning to "walk" dates they have no intention of keeping. If you call on January 7 to book 11 months out from your arrival, a lack of availability COULD be due to members "walking" that night who really have no intention of keeping it.

I would rather see DVC address the walking issue rather than return to a system where people often felt compelled to make 7 calls for a 7-day reservation, and where the daily first-come, first-served reservation process left members with gaps in their trips when booking high-demand units or dates.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

If you don't think DBD was necessary, then why is there a problem with the current system?

I never said it wasn't necessary at times, I simply said it wasn't required from a policy standpoint.
It fact I do think it's necessary for certain times and room categories.

I don't understand how you can dismiss the notion of calling day-by-day and just say "call at the end" to book the entire trip, while suggesting that the current system is unworkable. They are essentially one in the same.

No, they are not the same at all. ..
Under the new system I can be locked out BEFORE MY BOOKING WINDOW EVER OPENS, and possibly because somebody is walking.
That simply couldn't happen under the old system. If I opted to wait until the end and could not get everyday, I could waitlist what I was missing.
It's not so easy under the new system.

If, under the old system, you could have called 11 months from check-out and booked the desired reservation, then it should also be available 11 months from arrival date under the current configuration.

Unless somebody is walking.. That couldn't happen under the old system.

MG

 

[tjkraz]

No, they are not the same at all. ..
Under the new system I can be locked out BEFORE MY BOOKING WINDOW EVER OPENS...

Sure it could. See my response to Diane. If you're calling 11 months from check-out, there certainly exists the potential for members who are departing earlier than you to call and fill up the early part of your trip.

...and possibly because somebody is walking.

Then I'd much rather see DVC address the walking problem.

That simply couldn't happen under the old system. If I opted to wait until the end and could not get everyday, I could waitlist what I was missing.
It's not so easy under the new system.

It may not be "so easy", but let's not pretend that it is completely unworkable.

If the first day of your trip isn't available you can waitlist. If someone is "walking" the waitlist may come through rather quickly.

Yes, you would have to call back the next day and try to book the remainder of the trip. I hope we can agree the sheer volume of these repeat calls is FAR lower than the DBD telephone traffic Member Services was handling.

The problem with DBD calls is that people commit to calling whether they know if their trip will be a problem or not. Going back to my example for Diane, a member convinced they need to call DBD will make separate calls on:

January 8
January 9
January 10
January 11
January 12
January 13
January 14

Throughout the entire process they have no idea if they will have difficulty booking or not. In for a dime, in for a dollar.

They could also just call on January 14 to book the entire stay and waitlist if necessary.

Under the current system you call on January 7th and immediately know where you stand. The vast majority of the time the entire trip is booked in that single call. Waitlisting and multiple calls MAY be necessary, but most people are able to avoid it. And for views/dates where waitlisting/multiple calls are involved under the current system, the member would have experienced similar issues under the old.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Sure it could. See my response to Diane. If you're calling 11 months from check-out, there certainly exists the potential for members who are departing earlier than you to call and fill up the early part of your trip.



Then I'd much rather see DVC address the walking problem.



It may not be "so easy", but let's not pretend that it is completely unworkable.

If the first day of your trip isn't available you can waitlist. If someone is "walking" the waitlist may come through rather quickly.

Yes, you would have to call back the next day and try to book the remainder of the trip. I hope we can agree the sheer volume of these repeat calls is FAR lower than the DBD telephone traffic Member Services was handling.

The problem with DBD calls is that people commit to calling whether they know if their trip will be a problem or not. Going back to my example for Diane, a member convinced they need to call DBD will make separate calls on:

January 8
January 9
January 10
January 11
January 12
January 13
January 14

Throughout the entire process they have no idea if they will have difficulty booking or not. In for a dime, in for a dollar.

They could also just call on January 14 to book the entire stay and waitlist if necessary.

Under the current system you call on January 7th and immediately know where you stand. The vast majority of the time the entire trip is booked in that single call. Waitlisting and multiple calls MAY be necessary, but most people are able to avoid it. And for views/dates where waitlisting/multiple calls are involved under the current system, the member would have experienced similar issues under the old.

I started dissecting this and arguing individual points, but I decided against it.

Again, you can spin, but the truth remains--
AKV concierge checking in on December 28th..

Old System = Day by day booking with a high likelihood of success.

New System = Calling the instant the booking window opens, slim chance of success.

Getting my reservation is the most important part of this equation, not whether or not I have to make several calls.
If I can't get my reservation, what good is the Membership??

MG

 

[tjkraz]

Again, you can spin, but the truth remains--
AKV concierge checking in on December 28th..

Old System = Day by day booking with a high likelihood of success.

New System = Calling the instant the booking window opens, slim chance of success.

Couldn't disagree more.

If demand is so high that you can't get your arrival day under the "New System", you aren't going to be able to string together any substantial number of DBD bookings under the "Old System."

One night? Maybe.
Two nights? Possibly.

Six or seven nights? No way. Not if there is that much competition and it's every man for himself at 9am when the phones open. When you're making 6-7 DBD calls to try and book individual nights, you're bound to get stuck back in the queue, get a slow CM or have telephone issues on some days which leave you without a room.

If there are 10 Concierge villas and 30 people who want them, 20 are going to be disappointed. Period. The only thing that differs is how the rooms are distributed.

If you call 11 months from your check-out date, someone could already have booked the early parts of your trip if they are checking out before you.

If you commit to calling day-by-day, the odds are remote that you're actually going to be one of the lucky 10 every single day.

If you call 11 months from the arrival date, the early part of your trip could already be booked by people arriving before you.

Mathematically there is no way to satisfy 30 people with 10 rooms. Opinions regarding the Old System are probably being influenced by past success, but that won't get you a room when demand exceeds supply by a 3:1 ratio (or whatever the number may be.)

 

[dismedvc]

Mathematically there is no way to satisfy 30 people with 10 rooms. Opinions regarding the Old System are probably being influenced by past success, but that won't get you a room when demand exceeds supply by a 3:1 ratio (or whatever the number may be.)

And the best solution? Hate to keep beating this dead horse, but

It still seems to me all this debate would go away if the points were set correctly. If there are nights that are almost impossible to get at 11 months without playing the "games" that are being discussed here, then the points for those nights are too low, and raising the points would solve the problem.