Le Cellier? Worth it?

[havoc315]

I think you're really overanalyzing the mushroom risotto. Crème brûlée isn't a dish associated with Canada. Neither is risotto. Or chocolate cake. Or hamburgers. But they have to serve something, so they put Canadian twists on a variety of dishes that might be eaten in Canada but aren't necessarily 'Canadian cuisine'. I'm not going to criticize them for that. What would you suggest they serve with their filet instead of risotto? Should they be limited to poutine (fries with cheese curds and gravy)

I don't think the truffle butter has an off-putting flavor. I really like it. I guess since I care less about the 'flavors' of the beef (as long as it has the flavor of a filet), I'm fine with a nice sauce accompanying it. And apparently the other signature restaurants feel the same way (California Grill has a smoky teriyaki barbecue sauce, Jiko has a South African cabernet reduction, Flying Fish's strip steak is served with a creamy sauce foyot, etc).

No, I wouldn't say mushrooms are a popular food in the US. They're something that picky eaters especially dislike. And given the wide number of picky eaters that frequent WDW, it impresses me that a dish with heavy mushroom flavor is so popular. On the other hand, my info search about Canadian cuisine indicates that mushrooms are very popular in Canada, which makes sense as they're strongly associated with the Pacific Northwest.

I'm not criticizing Le Cellier for serving risotto. More of just wondering out loud, whether it is a very common and popular dish in Canada. You'd find it odd if Le Cellier started serving pizza, sushi, and jambalaya.
Crete brûlée, is not surprising. Just as baguettes are not surprising in Hanoi. If you have been to Montreal, the dining is much like being in Paris (where Creme brûlée is even more prevalent than apple pie in the US)

And yes, I also dislike the Teriyaki filet at California Grill, and wouldn't order it. As I said, it's pretty rare I order a "steak" in a restaurant. If I do order a red meat dish, it's more likely to have a very light sauce, such as a gastrique, maybe a simple red wine reduction.
But soaking a piece of meat in a heavy butter or thick sweet BBQ sauce, is not a way to enhance complimentary flavors.

I had an amazing meal for my anniversary a couple weeks ago. Pricey -- about $200 per person. The best dish was a tiny slice of chicken breast served with carrots. No sauce at all. But the chicken, free range, farm fresh, was the most tender, most moist, most flavorful I ever had in my life. The carrots tasted nothing like any other carrot I've ever eaten.

 

[saskdw]

So what I'm getting from this thread is that we all have different tastes and preferences, very surprising.

I don't think anybody is going to Le Cellier expecting fine dining prepared by the Queen of France's top chef. All prices for food are inflated at Disney, so the prices are somewhat irrelevant. I hoping for a good quality steak with a very cold Canadian beer!

For those in the know, is Le Cellier not buying top quality meat?

 

[matt and beth]

Not worth it. Especially after it was changed to two credits. The steaks were extremely salty from the tenderizer used. Service was very slow and like other posters have stated they tend to bring out all the food at once. We found the Turf Club at SSR had the best steak we have had at WDW. All together we have had much better steaks outside of WDW. If one was going to consider using two credits it would be better to go to the California grill on top of the contemporary and watch the fireworks from the roof deck.

 

[melmlantz]

I've always enjoyed Le Cellier, but I've not been there since they changed where they get their beef.

I missed this - they changed where they get their beef? When?

 

[DonaldDoleWhip]

I'm not criticizing Le Cellier for serving risotto. More of just wondering out loud, whether it is a very common and popular dish in Canada. You'd find it odd if Le Cellier started serving pizza, sushi, and jambalaya.

Your original point about the risotto ("How is mushroom risotto Canadian??) sounded a bit hostile. And in fact, even this post kind of demonstrates that you think something is wrong with Le Cellier serving risotto (as if it were pizza, sushi, etc).

For one thing, I don't see risotto as purely Italian anymore. Yes, it's Italian in origin, but many American restaurants that focus on 'seasonal, American' cuisine serve risotto now. I've also seen it in French restaurants. Even California Grill (which focuses on California cuisine and incorporates some Asian flavors) had a lobster risotto on its menu a few years ago as an appetizer, and I don't blame them too much. Jiko also had a corn risotto on its menu alongside the filet. And even as a South African, I have no problem with it, because corn is something that people do grow and consume in South Africa, but it's being repurposed as part of an upscale accompaniment. Risotto isn't Canadian, but they've added a Canadian influence with the strong mushroom flavor. I don't have any other answer. That said, I think the comparison to pizza or jambalaya is too bold. Pizza, although it might be ubiquitous in America, is strongly associated with Italian identity and culture, whereas risotto (while still Italian) is venturing into "fine dining" territory and is appearing on a wider variety of menus (pizza is still largely found at Italian-run pizzerias).

Also, Le Cellier did have a sushi appetizer over the summer: raw marinated tuna with Asian flavors. It was delicious. It might not be strictly "Canadian," but it tasted like something that you might find in modern Canada, maybe in Vancouver where seafood and Asian flavors are excellent. Since no Disney restaurant excels at being completely authentic, I don't fault them for serving things that aren't strict examples of their cuisine. Instead, I look to see if the inspiration is adequate and if the flavors live up to what I want. Le Cellier is definitely one of the best one-credit restaurants from that standpoint, IMO. I often have criticized Sanaa for not being completely authentic, but the real problem was the negligible use of heat or spice in the food. The food just didn't match what it was supposed to be. That's recently changed with the addition of spicier curries on the menu. I think when I step back and interpret every Disney restaurant as "(insert cuisine here) inspired," whether it be Jiko, Sanaa, Citricos, etc, I actually enjoy the food more, because I recognize that Disney won't serve a perfectly authentic replica of any region's food. In some cases, that's not enough (such as Marrakesh, which I used to love but no longer appreciate), but in many cases (Jiko, Citricos, Sanaa, etc) it solves my main issue.

Not worth it. Especially after it was changed to two credits. The steaks were extremely salty from the tenderizer used. Service was very slow and like other posters have stated they tend to bring out all the food at once. We found the Turf Club at SSR had the best steak we have had at WDW. All together we have had much better steaks outside of WDW. If one was going to consider using two credits it would be better to go to the California grill on top of the contemporary and watch the fireworks from the roof deck.

That's never happened to me, and I've had quite a few meals there. I agree that dinner might not be worth 2 credits. Lunch, however, is a good deal on the dining plan IMO.

 

[havoc315]

Your original point about the risotto ("How is mushroom risotto Canadian??) sounded a bit hostile. And in fact, even this post kind of demonstrates that you think something is wrong with Le Cellier serving risotto (as if it were pizza, sushi, etc).

For one thing, I don't see risotto as purely Italian anymore. Yes, it's Italian in origin, but many American restaurants that focus on 'seasonal, American' cuisine serve risotto now. I've also seen it in French restaurants. Even California Grill (which focuses on California cuisine and incorporates some Asian flavors) had a lobster risotto on its menu a few years ago as an appetizer, and I don't blame them too much. Jiko also had a corn risotto on its menu alongside the filet. And even as a South African, I have no problem with it, because corn is something that people do grow and consume in South Africa, but it's being repurposed as part of an upscale accompaniment. Risotto isn't Canadian, but they've added a Canadian influence with the strong mushroom flavor. I don't have any other answer. That said, I think the comparison to pizza or jambalaya is too bold. Pizza, although it might be ubiquitous in America, is strongly associated with Italian identity and culture, whereas risotto (while still Italian) is venturing into "fine dining" territory and is appearing on a wider variety of menus (pizza is still largely found at Italian-run pizzerias).

Also, Le Cellier did have a sushi appetizer over the summer: raw marinated tuna with Asian flavors. It was delicious. It might not be strictly "Canadian," but it tasted like something that you might find in modern Canada, maybe in Vancouver where seafood and Asian flavors are excellent. Since no Disney restaurant excels at being completely authentic, I don't fault them for serving things that aren't strict examples of their cuisine. Instead, I look to see if the inspiration is adequate and if the flavors live up to what I want. Le Cellier is definitely one of the best one-credit restaurants from that standpoint, IMO. I often have criticized Sanaa for not being completely authentic, but the real problem was the negligible use of heat or spice in the food. The food just didn't match what it was supposed to be. That's recently changed with the addition of spicier curries on the menu. I think when I step back and interpret every Disney restaurant as "(insert cuisine here) inspired," whether it be Jiko, Sanaa, Citricos, etc, I actually enjoy the food more, because I recognize that Disney won't serve a perfectly authentic replica of any region's food. In some cases, that's not enough (such as Marrakesh, which I used to love but no longer appreciate), but in many cases (Jiko, Citricos, Sanaa, etc) it solves my main issue.


That's never happened to me, and I've had quite a few meals there. I agree that dinner might not be worth 2 credits. Lunch, however, is a good deal on the dining plan IMO.

California cuisine is a style of cooking which is considered to have been invented about 30 years ago by chefs Wolfgang Puck and Alice Waters (and others). It is synonymous with "fusion cooking." By definition, it involves fusing ethnic styles with seasonal local ingredients. Thus, Puck is known for his creative pizza combinations (the flatbreads at California Grill are also fusion pizzas). From Japanese cooking, California fusion adopted the basic concept of Maki, but wrapped the seaweed around crazy combinations instead of a single piece of raw fish. (thus the California Roll was invented). And thus, risotto fits perfectly at California Grill. Take any traditional ethnic dish, and fuse it with seasonal local American ingredients, and you have California cooking. So lobster risotto would be a perfect example of California Cuisine.

Now, French fries are clearly a European invention (can debate whether actually a French innovation), but they have become thoroughly Americanized, so I'd expect to see them at most generic American restaurants.
Risotto has not become so Americanized -- I expect to see it in Italian restaurants, and some fine dining establishments. But I'm pretty sure you won't find it at your typical Applebee's.

Creme Brûlée, I would expect to find practically everywhere in some Canadian cities. Is risotto as common in Canada, as French fries in the USA? I don't know the answer, but I doubt it.
The theory of the World Showcase restaurants, is cuisine from around the world.

You were very critical of Marakesh for watering down Morrocan food, and making it more Americanized. But isn't Le Cellier doing the exact same thing?

I really don't think it's a big deal. I haven't been hostile to risotto at Le Cellier. My initial comment was not a major point, it was a footnote thought, thrown into a bigger discussion. As I said, I actually liked the mushroom risotto. Risotto is a very difficult dish to make right, and they actually presented a fair version. (a lot of places totally mess it up. A great risotto is hard to find. It takes a cooking style and dedication that is difficult in a restaurant kitchen).

I simply found it to be an odd accompaniment to a Canadian restaurant.

 

[RMulieri]

I think the reason it is so popular is that it is relatively BENIGN,COMFORTABLE,FAMILIAR food in World Showcase of Epcot.I am not saying this to be harsh in anyway, but how many posts do we see on these boards about picky eaters? and not just picky children.Le cellier is simple food that everyone can enjoy in a park that has many restaurants that picky eaters may not like.It is the same reason Garden Grill is popular and even Coral Reef to an extent.None of them are phenomenal food, but they are familiar foods and that is what keeps them popular.

 

[havoc315]

I think the reason it is so popular is that it is relatively BENIGN,COMFORTABLE,FAMILIAR food in World Showcase of Epcot.I am not saying this to be harsh in anyway, but how many posts do we see on these boards about picky eaters? and not just picky children.Le cellier is simple food that everyone can enjoy in a park that has many restaurants that picky eaters may not like.It is the same reason Garden Grill is popular and even Coral Reef to an extent.None of them are phenomenal food, but they are familiar foods and that is what keeps them popular.

I think there is a lot of truth to this post.

 

[BEASLYBOO]

I missed this - they changed where they get their beef? When?

Oh my! You've missed another huge on-going, much debated thread! Apparently, LC's beef prior to the 2 TS credit change in June(?) change came from the US and Australia of all places, I can neither confirm or deny this but apparently many posters were in the "Know". Now the menu is a bit more upscale, requires 2TS credits and we are assured that the beef comes from Canada!

I, truthfully don't care where it comes from as lonf as it's tasty!

 

[DonaldDoleWhip]

California cuisine is a style of cooking which is considered to have been invented about 30 years ago by chefs Wolfgang Puck and Alice Waters (and others). It is synonymous with "fusion cooking." By definition, it involves fusing ethnic styles with seasonal local ingredients. Thus, Puck is known for his creative pizza combinations (the flatbreads at California Grill are also fusion pizzas). From Japanese cooking, California fusion adopted the basic concept of Maki, but wrapped the seaweed around crazy combinations instead of a single piece of raw fish. (thus the California Roll was invented). And thus, risotto fits perfectly at California Grill. Take any traditional ethnic dish, and fuse it with seasonal local American ingredients, and you have California cooking. So lobster risotto would be a perfect example of California Cuisine.

Now, French fries are clearly a European invention (can debate whether actually a French innovation), but they have become thoroughly Americanized, so I'd expect to see them at most generic American restaurants.
Risotto has not become so Americanized -- I expect to see it in Italian restaurants, and some fine dining establishments. But I'm pretty sure you won't find it at your typical Applebee's.

Creme Brûlée, I would expect to find practically everywhere in some Canadian cities. Is risotto as common in Canada, as French fries in the USA? I don't know the answer, but I doubt it.
The theory of the World Showcase restaurants, is cuisine from around the world.

You were very critical of Marakesh for watering down Morrocan food, and making it more Americanized. But isn't Le Cellier doing the exact same thing?

I really don't think it's a big deal. I haven't been hostile to risotto at Le Cellier. My initial comment was not a major point, it was a footnote thought, thrown into a bigger discussion. As I said, I actually liked the mushroom risotto. Risotto is a very difficult dish to make right, and they actually presented a fair version. (a lot of places totally mess it up. A great risotto is hard to find. It takes a cooking style and dedication that is difficult in a restaurant kitchen).

I simply found it to be an odd accompaniment to a Canadian restaurant.

Okay, so you tell me - what should a Canadian steakhouse serve as a starch? Why is risotto off limits and unacceptable? Why is crème brûlée (French) acceptable at almost every Disney restaurant regardless of cuisine?

With the Marrakesh vs. Le Cellier comment, Moroccan cuisine has a clear identity. There are some flavors and spices that very clearly represent Morocco - lemon, olives, saffron, cumin, etc. Cooking with tagines. Using fresh mint and parsley. I love those flavors, but our most recent meal at Marrakesh was disappointingly bland (basically cous cous with a generic tomato sauce and some protein). The flavors weren't living up to what they were supposed to be, and thus it's obvious that the food is watered down.

With Le Cellier, I personally think Canadian cuisine has less of a precise identity. There are some signature dishes (which Le Cellier has, like poutine) and some key ingredients (mushrooms, salmon, mussels, maple, etc). (For the record, Le Cellier's lunch poutine is disgusting IMO, but their dinner poutine is upscale and also close to authentic.) Still, I applaud them for doing what they can with Canadian inspiration. I'd say several World Showcase restaurants miss the mark of what they're supposed to be, but in those cases (Nine Dragons, Les Chefs, Marrakesh, Tutto Italia, Akershus, etc) I'm more punitive because the respective cuisine has some clear benchmarks that should be met. With Canadian cuisine, I'm not sure of a comprehensive direction they could go in, and frankly, I don't think you have a clear answer either. I also appreciate Jiko (you didn't even reply to my Jiko point about corn risotto). I'm very familiar with South African cuisine, I've been there a lot, I have some favorite dishes, and so on. From my perspective, Jiko actually does a great job of infusing African flavors and spices into a dish, even if the dish is prepared in a more upscale way that's not indigenous to Africa. And because South African cuisine has such little presence in the US, I appreciate how much they've actually gotten right in trying to incorporate certain flavors, instead of criticizing them for what they can't do because of the broad audience they have to serve.

And if you look back at my post, I said risotto is becoming pretty common in upscale locations, even if they're not Italian. I never said it's everywhere in the United States like at an Applebee's. Since Le Cellier is themed to be slightly more upscale than the typical 1-credit eatery (and since dinner is actually a signature meal), I think risotto is appropriate, and the mushroom influence is what's supposed to be a Canadian touch. Again, if you can create a comprehensive menu of Canadian food that's cohesive and makes sense for a steakhouse-themed restaurant to serve, then fine.

 

[havoc315]

Okay, so you tell me - what should a Canadian steakhouse serve as a starch? Why is risotto off limits and unacceptable? Why is crème brûlée (French) acceptable at almost every Disney restaurant regardless of cuisine?

With the Marrakesh vs. Le Cellier comment, Moroccan cuisine has a clear identity. There are some flavors and spices that very clearly represent Morocco - lemon, olives, saffron, cumin, etc. Cooking with tagines. Using fresh mint and parsley. I love those flavors, but our most recent meal at Marrakesh was disappointingly bland (basically cous cous with a generic tomato sauce and some protein). The flavors weren't living up to what they were supposed to be, and thus it's obvious that the food is watered down.

With Le Cellier, I personally think Canadian cuisine has less of a precise identity. There are some signature dishes (which Le Cellier has, like poutine) and some key ingredients (mushrooms, salmon, mussels, maple, etc). (For the record, Le Cellier's lunch poutine is disgusting IMO, but their dinner poutine is upscale and also close to authentic.) Still, I applaud them for doing what they can with Canadian inspiration. I'd say several World Showcase restaurants miss the mark of what they're supposed to be, but in those cases (Nine Dragons, Les Chefs, Marrakesh, Tutto Italia, Akershus, etc) I'm more punitive because the respective cuisine has some clear benchmarks that should be met. With Canadian cuisine, I'm not sure of a comprehensive direction they could go in, and frankly, I don't think you have a clear answer either. I also appreciate Jiko (you didn't even reply to my Jiko point about corn risotto). I'm very familiar with South African cuisine, I've been there a lot, I have some favorite dishes, and so on. From my perspective, Jiko actually does a great job of infusing African flavors and spices into a dish, even if the dish is prepared in a more upscale way that's not indigenous to Africa. And because South African cuisine has such little presence in the US, I appreciate how much they've actually gotten right in trying to incorporate certain flavors, instead of criticizing them for what they can't do because of the broad audience they have to serve.

And if you look back at my post, I said risotto is becoming pretty common in upscale locations, even if they're not Italian. I never said it's everywhere in the United States like at an Applebee's. Since Le Cellier is themed to be slightly more upscale than the typical 1-credit eatery (and since dinner is actually a signature meal), I think risotto is appropriate, and the mushroom influence is what's supposed to be a Canadian touch. Again, if you can create a comprehensive menu of Canadian food that's cohesive and makes sense for a steakhouse-themed restaurant to serve, then fine.

Creme Brulee wouldn't be acceptable at any restaurant, per se. It would be very odd if Restaurant Marakesh, or Nine Dragons, or Tokyo Dining, started to serve Creme Brulee.

But I bet if you walked into any steak house in Canada, you would find Creme Brulee on the menu.

So you asked, what should a Canadian steak house serve as a side? I have never been to a Canadian steak house. So my answer is simple -- I'd expect it to serve items you would find in a Canadian steak house!

My initial post was a legitimate curiosity. If it turns out that Risotto is commonly found in Canadian steakhouses, then it is entirely appropriate.
If it is something that you would almost never find in a Canadian steak house, then it is entirely misplaced.

I took the liberty of looking up a couple Canadian steakhouse menus online. For example, http://www.harboursixty.com/ and http://www.barberians.com/menu.php and http://www.jacobssteakhouse.com/.

I see creme brulee on every menu, but I don't see risotto on any of the menus.

You're right that I don't have a clear sense of a Canadian direction. I also know very little about Morrocan food. But would my ignorance about Morrocan food, make it ok for Marakesh to serve me a Big Mac and Apple Pie? Being ignorant about Morrocan food, I wouldn't know whether a Big Mac and Apple pie was appropriate or not. I'd suspect it was inappropriate, just as I suspect that risotto is not consistent with a Canadian steak house. (And my 5 minutes of research appears to back this up).

 

[BEASLYBOO]

(For the record, Le Cellier's lunch poutine is disgusting IMO,

For the record anyone who's fallen in love with authentic Canadian Poutine is going to be disapointed with Le Cellier's. Canadian, road side poutine is made with un-pasturized cheese curds, the sauce is also quite different!

All of Disney's and many American ethnic eateries are Americanzied. Most American's would not eat tradional Chinese food anymore than Mac & Cheese would be served with a Filet Mignon in Africa (Jiko) Disney dining is designed to feed and fit the tastes of the masses, not the few! Real, authentic ethnic food would never sell at Disney, example: They seldomly use white meat chicken in Chinese food in China and Americans demand it so now the Chinese restaurants in the US advertise it on their menues! Morrocco's food is intensely spiced, more so than the typical American family could stand, Disney just tones it down to be palatable! Canadian creme brulee, just add a splash of maple syrup to a typical French custard!

Every culture has a form of "rice" on their table, so Canada borrowed Rissotto, big deal! They serve potatoes too, they shouldn't because they did not invent the potato? None of it is anymore authentic than hamburgers and apple pie, the typical American meal and what's more Amrican than that!

Ethnic Canadian and American fare for that matter would consist of squirrel, beaver, caribou, wild onions, cod, fiddlehead ferns..... until the French, the Scots, the Italians, The British etc. brought with them their input!

You want a side of fiddleheads with those beaver nuggets

 

[DonaldDoleWhip]

Creme Brulee wouldn't be acceptable at any restaurant, per se. It would be very odd if Restaurant Marakesh, or Nine Dragons, or Tokyo Dining, started to serve Creme Brulee.

But I bet if you walked into any steak house in Canada, you would find Creme Brulee on the menu.

So you asked, what should a Canadian steak house serve as a side? I have never been to a Canadian steak house. So my answer is simple -- I'd expect it to serve items you would find in a Canadian steak house!

My initial post was a legitimate curiosity. If it turns out that Risotto is commonly found in Canadian steakhouses, then it is entirely appropriate.
If it is something that you would almost never find in a Canadian steak house, then it is entirely misplaced.

I took the liberty of looking up a couple Canadian steakhouse menus online. For example, http://www.harboursixty.com/ and http://www.barberians.com/menu.php and http://www.jacobssteakhouse.com/.

I see creme brulee on every menu, but I don't see risotto on any of the menus.

You're right that I don't have a clear sense of a Canadian direction. I also know very little about Morrocan food. But would my ignorance about Morrocan food, make it ok for Marakesh to serve me a Big Mac and Apple Pie? Being ignorant about Morrocan food, I wouldn't know whether a Big Mac and Apple pie was appropriate or not. I'd suspect it was inappropriate, just as I suspect that risotto is not consistent with a Canadian steak house. (And my 5 minutes of research appears to back this up).

Good argument. I took a different approach and googled "Canada risotto", and while there's nothing that indicates risotto is ubiquitous in Canada (which it's probably not), I found a website about Canadian mushrooms which includes a risotto recipe. If you google "Canada mushroom risotto," lots of recipes come up. As far as I'm concerned, that makes risotto a fair use of mushrooms. Again, it's Canadian-inspired, not 100% Canadian (just like Jiko is African-inspired, Citricos is Mediterranean-inspired, etc). That makes the difference. At least they're trying to use the right flavor profiles, IMO.

I try to be worldly and aware of different cultures and cuisine. As far as I'm aware, Canada has some signature dishes and ingredients, but its cuisine is largely influenced by the US, France, UK, etc. South Africa's cuisine also has some signature dishes, but is also influenced by Portugal, UK, India, Malaysia, etc. Since their cuisines are kind of a fusion in themselves, then I expect a restaurant to feature a fusion of different cuisines anyway (kind of kind how the first steakhouse you linked to has some dishes that are clearly Italian-based).

Again, Le Cellier isn't an outstanding restaurant to me, but I think it's one of WS's better offerings, and I think it does an adequate job of utilizing Canadian inspiration on the menu.

 

[havoc315]

Good argument. I took a different approach and googled "Canada risotto", and while there's nothing that indicates risotto is ubiquitous in Canada (which it's probably not), I found a website about Canadian mushrooms which includes a risotto recipe. If you google "Canada mushroom risotto," lots of recipes come up. As far as I'm concerned, that makes risotto a fair use of mushrooms. Again, it's Canadian-inspired, not 100% Canadian (just like Jiko is African-inspired, Citricos is Mediterranean-inspired, etc). That makes the difference. At least they're trying to use the right flavor profiles, IMO.

I try to be worldly and aware of different cultures and cuisine. As far as I'm aware, Canada has some signature dishes and ingredients, but its cuisine is largely influenced by the US, France, UK, etc. South Africa's cuisine also has some signature dishes, but is also influenced by Portugal, UK, India, Malaysia, etc. Since their cuisines are kind of a fusion in themselves, then I expect a restaurant to feature a fusion of different cuisines anyway (kind of kind how the first steakhouse you linked to has some dishes that are clearly Italian-based).

Again, Le Cellier isn't an outstanding restaurant to me, but I think it's one of WS's better offerings, and I think it does an adequate job of utilizing Canadian inspiration on the menu.

If you google "Canada falafel", you get falafel recipes... so that's not a very good test.

Again, this isn't a major point. I liked the mushroom risotto at Le Cellier, it if came with another dish besides the awful filet, I might get it again.

I'm just saying its a bit misplaced at a Canadian steakhouse. And it's presence at Le Cellier is akin to the watering down of ethnic flavors at other restaurants around the World Showcase.

 

[havoc315]

Every culture has a form of "rice" on their table, so Canada borrowed Rissotto, big deal! They serve potatoes too, they shouldn't because they did not invent the potato? None of it is anymore authentic than hamburgers and apple pie, the typical American meal and what's more Amrican than that!
You want a side of fiddleheads with those beaver nuggets

Actually, that's a common mistake about risotto. Risotto isn't a type of rice. Risotto can be made with several different types of rice-- it's a method of cooking it.
Using your potato example -- different cultures do different things with potatoes. Doesn't matter who invested the potato, it matters how it is used.

Italians didn't invent pasta or tomatoes, but they definitely innovated their use.

Same with rice -- Mixed it into a jambalaya, you have New Orleans cooking. Or you can fry it up in an Asian style. If you slow cook the individual grains to break up the starch chemical bonds, then you have the Italian risotto style.

 

[DonaldDoleWhip]

If you google "Canada falafel", you get falafel recipes... so that's not a very good test.

Again, this isn't a major point. I liked the mushroom risotto at Le Cellier, it if came with another dish besides the awful filet, I might get it again.

I'm just saying its a bit misplaced at a Canadian steakhouse. And it's presence at Le Cellier is akin to the watering down of ethnic flavors at other restaurants around the World Showcase.

I don't know why you started this discussion then (and your tone in that original question was rather harsh). We know that risotto originated in Italy. That's fine. Good for you. If you're not willing to accept any possible justification as to why Le Cellier might choose to serve it (it's a way to feature a popular Canadian ingredient, it's a relatively upscale accompaniment that's appearing in more and more non-Italian restaurants, etc), then there's no discussion going on here.

Risotto =/= big mac. Risotto =/= pizza. Those things are cheap eats and are strongly associated with national identity. Risotto is an Italian dish, but it's certainly featured in many non-Italian restaurants these days. And again, if one of the steakhouses you linked to can serve gnocchi (also Italian in origin), risotto is just as far of a stretch. You're just being too literal.

I think I found a different way to describe how I analyze a restaurant. Some cuisines have a very clear identity that can be described with a few key spices, ingredients, etc. Moroccan is an example, as is Italian and Japanese. Of course, cuisine varies from region to region, but there is definitely a way to categorize something as Moroccan, Italian, Japanese, etc. With Canadian cuisine, as I said in my last post, it's more of a fusion of different influences. So while there are some signature dishes and ingredients, the rest can really be from anywhere (and this rule becomes even more accurate as everywhere begins to globalize). When you have these fusion cuisines, I think it's almost impossible to create a menu that 100% represents the indigenous dishes of that nation. That's why the "inspired" label helps. Jiko does well at being an African-inspired restaurant, because it's not trying to be completely authentic. Citricos is also a very good Mediterranean-inspired restaurant, but it's not 100% Mediterranean. Artist Point is inspired by the Pacific Northwest. Le Cellier is inspired by Canadian ingredients and flavors. And so on. These restaurants don't claim to serve completely authentic versions of the real thing, but they definitely nail some of the key flavor profiles. In comparison, if Marrakesh is trying to serve real Moroccan food, it doesn't succeed at that IMO. On the other side of things, Sanaa serves some interesting Indian-inspired food because it's not trying to be completely authentic, and I enjoy Sanaa more whenever I stop comparing it to the most authentic Indian food I've ever had.

Just looking at Le Cellier's menus, I see a bunch of things that make me think of Canada or match your logic of being on the actual steakhouse menus: maple, berries on the dessert menu (as well as saskatoon berry tea - saskatoon berries are native to Canada), Canadian cheeses, Canadian alcohol, Canadian mussels, duck, salmon, mushrooms, salmon, crêpes (I know it's French, but by your France logic, that's acceptable), gnocchi (I know it's Italian, but by your "let's compare it to a steakhouse menu and see if it's there" logic, that's acceptable), pretzel bread (in reference to the Oktoberfest celebrations in Ontario), poutine, mashed potatoes (again, by your logic, it's on the Canadian steakhouse menus, so it's acceptable), steak frites (French), halibut, etc. Again, since I believe Le Cellier bills itself as being Canadian-inspired (and not a replica of the real thing), I'm impressed with how many things on the menu are actually associated with Canada.

If you want clarification, go to the Disney World website and look at Le Cellier. Disney says Le Cellier's food is "based on recipes from the provinces of Canada." That's true. No, it's not exactly what you'd find at any single Canadian restaurant, but from the links you posted, Canadian restaurants don't look too different from US restaurants, in which case, I'm glad that Le Cellier does what it does.

And this is all coming from an adventurous eater - I'd gladly eat a unique cuisine every night (Moroccan is one of my favorites, as are Ethiopian, Vietnamese, and definitely South African), but in the World Showcase duel, I think Le Cellier achieves its purpose better than many World Showcase restaurants.

 

[sPaRkLeSpAz]

I liked it, but I do think it's kind of overrated. My daddy can cook better steaks then that xD

 

[Ramsfan28]

I think it is worth it. While it isn't a "must do" for me each trip to the World, I enjoy it enough to try to secure a reservation (usually for lunch).

I don't have the same expectations as some do regarding Le Cellier and for me there are better places like Shula's and Citricos to get a steak at WDW but I do enjoy the overall meal there.

Not over-hyped IMHO. 'Ohana takes that award - that place is just AWFUL.

 

[havoc315]

I don't know why you started this discussion then (and your tone in that original question was rather harsh). We know that risotto originated in Italy. That's fine. Good for you. If you're not willing to accept any possible justification as to why Le Cellier might choose to serve it (it's a way to feature a popular Canadian ingredient, it's a relatively upscale accompaniment that's appearing in more and more non-Italian restaurants, etc), then there's no discussion going on here.

Risotto =/= big mac. Risotto =/= pizza. Those things are cheap eats and are strongly associated with national identity. Risotto is an Italian dish, but it's certainly featured in many non-Italian restaurants these days. And again, if one of the steakhouses you linked to can serve gnocchi (also Italian in origin), risotto is just as far of a stretch. You're just being too literal.

I think I found a different way to describe how I analyze a restaurant. Some cuisines have a very clear identity that can be described with a few key spices, ingredients, etc. Moroccan is an example, as is Italian and Japanese. Of course, cuisine varies from region to region, but there is definitely a way to categorize something as Moroccan, Italian, Japanese, etc. With Canadian cuisine, as I said in my last post, it's more of a fusion of different influences. So while there are some signature dishes and ingredients, the rest can really be from anywhere (and this rule becomes even more accurate as everywhere begins to globalize). When you have these fusion cuisines, I think it's almost impossible to create a menu that 100% represents the indigenous dishes of that nation. That's why the "inspired" label helps. Jiko does well at being an African-inspired restaurant, because it's not trying to be completely authentic. Citricos is also a very good Mediterranean-inspired restaurant, but it's not 100% Mediterranean. Artist Point is inspired by the Pacific Northwest. Le Cellier is inspired by Canadian ingredients and flavors. And so on. These restaurants don't claim to serve completely authentic versions of the real thing, but they definitely nail some of the key flavor profiles. In comparison, if Marrakesh is trying to serve real Moroccan food, it doesn't succeed at that IMO. On the other side of things, Sanaa serves some interesting Indian-inspired food because it's not trying to be completely authentic, and I enjoy Sanaa more whenever I stop comparing it to the most authentic Indian food I've ever had.

Just looking at Le Cellier's menus, I see a bunch of things that make me think of Canada or match your logic of being on the actual steakhouse menus: maple, berries on the dessert menu (as well as saskatoon berry tea - saskatoon berries are native to Canada), Canadian cheeses, Canadian alcohol, Canadian mussels, duck, salmon, mushrooms, salmon, crêpes (I know it's French, but by your France logic, that's acceptable), gnocchi (I know it's Italian, but by your "let's compare it to a steakhouse menu and see if it's there" logic, that's acceptable), pretzel bread (in reference to the Oktoberfest celebrations in Ontario), poutine, mashed potatoes (again, by your logic, it's on the Canadian steakhouse menus, so it's acceptable), steak frites (French), halibut, etc. Again, since I believe Le Cellier bills itself as being Canadian-inspired (and not a replica of the real thing), I'm impressed with how many things on the menu are actually associated with Canada.

If you want clarification, go to the Disney World website and look at Le Cellier. Disney says Le Cellier's food is "based on recipes from the provinces of Canada." That's true. No, it's not exactly what you'd find at any single Canadian restaurant, but from the links you posted, Canadian restaurants don't look too different from US restaurants, in which case, I'm glad that Le Cellier does what it does.

And this is all coming from an adventurous eater - I'd gladly eat a unique cuisine every night (Moroccan is one of my favorites, as are Ethiopian, Vietnamese, and definitely South African), but in the World Showcase duel, I think Le Cellier achieves its purpose better than many World Showcase restaurants.

I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive. And your logic is getting a bit twisted. Every nation's cuisine is a fusion of influences. Italy imported pasta and tomatoes. Vietnam is a cross of Chinese, Thai, and French influences. Etc, etc.
And pizza is not more associated with Italy, than Risotto. It's very rare I see risotto served at a generic non-Italian restaurant. But you find pizza at non-Italian restaurants all over the place.

A layperson doesn't always understand all the correlations, but a bit of cuisine education, and you know when things belong, and when they don't. If a Vietnamese restaurant served BBQ pork on a French baguette, a lay person may be bewildered. But someone educated in Vietnamese cuisine would know that such a dish would be right at home in Hanoi.

I'm not crucifying Le Cellier for serving risotto. It's actually the best part of their filet dish.
But whether good or not, I'm simply stating the fact, that it doesn't really belong. Just like most of the dishes served at Ohana are not very true to Hawaiian cuisine. Just like the food at Marakesh may not really deliver true Moroccan flavors. Risotto at Le Cellier is a similar misrepresentation of the cuisine of a true Canadian steak house.
You can easily say "who cares." You can easily say it makes no difference to you. You can say you're not expecting an authentic experience. And the same can be said of non-Hawaiian food at Ohana, or watered down Morrican food at Marakesh.
Whether the lack of authenticity lessens the dining experience is a purely subjective question. But the lack of authenticity seems to be a pretty objective fact.

 

[DonaldDoleWhip]

I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive. And your logic is getting a bit twisted. Every nation's cuisine is a fusion of influences. Italy imported pasta and tomatoes. Vietnam is a cross of Chinese, Thai, and French influences. Etc, etc.
And pizza is not more associated with Italy, than Risotto. It's very rare I see risotto served at a generic non-Italian restaurant. But you find pizza at non-Italian restaurants all over the place.

A layperson doesn't always understand all the correlations, but a bit of cuisine education, and you know when things belong, and when they don't. If a Vietnamese restaurant served BBQ pork on a French baguette, a lay person may be bewildered. But someone educated in Vietnamese cuisine would know that such a dish would be right at home in Hanoi.

I'm not crucifying Le Cellier for serving risotto. It's actually the best part of their filet dish.
But whether good or not, I'm simply stating the fact, that it doesn't really belong. Just like most of the dishes served at Ohana are not very true to Hawaiian cuisine. Just like the food at Marakesh may not really deliver true Moroccan flavors. Risotto at Le Cellier is a similar misrepresentation of the cuisine of a true Canadian steak house.
You can easily say "who cares." You can easily say it makes no difference to you. You can say you're not expecting an authentic experience. And the same can be said of non-Hawaiian food at Ohana, or watered down Morrican food at Marakesh.
Whether the lack of authenticity lessens the dining experience is a purely subjective question. But the lack of authenticity seems to be a pretty objective fact.

First of all, I don't care where the ingredient originated. That's irrelevant these days. "Tomato" doesn't necessarily mean Italian, but the things that Italian cuisine have done with it are why it can be associated with Italian cuisine, and thus it's an ingredient that I expect to see on an Italian menu. If I had to answer the question "What are some key spices and flavors of Italian cuisine?" I could answer that question with a list of common ingredients (even though there are regional differences, as some regions have a strong French influence while others have an almost Greek/Mediterranean influence). I couldn't answer that question for Canada. As you showed, a Canadian steakhouse doesn't really have a describable cultural identity. It serves things that an American steakhouse would serve. Also, you neglected one of my big points - according to you, it's okay for one of the steakhouses you posted to serve gnocchi with mushrooms (since that's an actual Canadian restaurant, so that's the standard Le Cellier should match). By that logic, since risotto is just as Italian as gnocchi, it's an acceptable starch.

Again, the answer depends on your interpretation of what Le Cellier claims to be. Since I don't expect a restaurant to 100% be able to emulate Canadian cuisine, and Le Cellier never pitches itself as a perfectly authentic experience, I give Le Cellier some slack (they could serve the exact menu as the first steakhouse you linked to, and people would criticize it for seeming too American). Whereas Moroccan food has some clear benchmarks that Marrakesh doesn't meet, even though its apparent goal is to serve authentic food.

And the reason I've gotten so defensive is the original line in your post: :"I think it's popularity is mostly due to the large amounts of Americans who iconicize steak and potatoes. To people who consider steak and potatoes to be the definition of an ideal meal, they naturally will like this restaurant.” That started this whole thing if you remember. I happen to think Le Cellier is one of Epcot's best options (that's not saying much). At the same time, I'm a foodie who rarely eats (or especially enjoys) steak and potatoes. Your generalization described Le Cellier's audience as having picky, conservative tastes, and thus, it felt like an insult to my standards and experience. I believe a sweeping negative generalization about the people who like an establishment is uncalled for. I never said Le Cellier was an amazing restaurant. Rather, I'm defending my right to believe Le Cellier is better than Marrakesh/other WS restaurants, even though in the real world I'd rather go to a good Moroccan restaurant than a steakhouse. There are restaurants at WDW that I like much more than Le Cellier, such as Artist Point, Jiko, Citricos, Yachtsman, Brown Derby, etc. But Le Cellier is the one that polarizes people and brings out comments such as 'people like it because they're ignorant and picky Americans and don't like interesting food.' That bugs me so much, and that's why I singled you out when I felt the need to respond.