Kids behavior reflecting on parents - questions

[mjkacmom]

I've learned that some kids are born meaner than others. My first 4 children have a great deal of empathy and compassion. Ds7 - not so much. He is very athletic and competative, and tends to be negative to his team mates during games, if they make mistakes (and at 7, there are many). My DH has not only benched him at soccer games (he is the coach), but has had his other coaches bench him. He also gets punished at home.

Ds12 had a group of friends since he was 4. I had a falling out with one of the moms a few years ago, and since then, has been bullied by her sons. Another mom of one of the kids bullies my ds, and yet I'm friends with the mom - she is one of the nicest people I've ever met, as is her DH. It's hard to separate the relationships, but I try.

Dd13 is in middle school, and if it wasn't for the fact that her bff tells her mother everything, and I'm close friends with her bff's mother, I wouldn't have a clue of the dynamics with her friends. The group "outed" a girl recently, but I've been able to discuss it with her, and I did notice the girl with them yesterday. If it wasn't for her bff's mom, I'd never know anything.

Before I had kids, I used to blame the parents, but now know it's not always the case.

 

[OceanAnnie]

I've learned that some kids are born meaner than others. My first 4 children have a great deal of empathy and compassion. Ds7 - not so much. He is very athletic and competative, and tends to be negative to his team mates during games, if they make mistakes (and at 7, there are many). My DH has not only benched him at soccer games (he is the coach), but has had his other coaches bench him. He also gets punished at home.

Ds12 had a group of friends since he was 4. I had a falling out with one of the moms a few years ago, and since then, has been bullied by her sons. Another mom of one of the kids bullies my ds, and yet I'm friends with the mom - she is one of the nicest people I've ever met, as is her DH. It's hard to separate the relationships, but I try.

Dd13 is in middle school, and if it wasn't for the fact that her bff tells her mother everything, and I'm close friends with her bff's mother, I wouldn't have a clue of the dynamics with her friends. The group "outed" a girl recently, but I've been able to discuss it with her, and I did notice the girl with them yesterday. If it wasn't for her bff's mom, I'd never know anything.

Before I had kids, I used to blame the parents, but now know it's not always the case.

How do you handle that?

It sounds difficult. I know you stated you keep the relationships separate, but I would have a hard time with that. I'd want the kibosh on bullying no matter what.

 

[luvsJack]

At different times in a child's development different people are the most influential to them. For the first few years it is their parents and this is the time that it is most effective to teach your beliefs and values to them. At a point it will become their teacher and at another point their peers (where the trouble usually starts!). When it becomes their peers, one big factor in their behavior is the behavior of their friends. IF their friend or the peer they are trying to impress is a mean girl, they may become one too.

But, I think for those that have been taught that this wrong and that continues to be stressed, they will swing back the other way. For some it will be sooner than others.

Dd is dealing with this a little bit now. The person who has been her bf for awhile now has decided she wants to be a part of another group (referred to by themselves as "the populars") In doing so she has completely dropped dd and their group. Dd refuses to be a part of this group because they are mean to other kids and one girl tends to try to control the other girls. I am proud of dd for not following the crowd but I know this has been hard on her. Her former friend has suddenly become a "mean girl" when at school so that she can be a part of this group.

Another factor may be their own social skills. For a child that doesn't have any friends or that has a hard time making friends, acting out is usually the norm.

So, IMHO, it is ultimately somewhat reflective of the parents but there other factors too.

 

[SunshineOR]

I disagree completely with this based on my experiences as a parent. First of all, I agree with those about personality. I'm raising all 5 of my kids the same way, but some are just more intense by nature, and even a little mean by nature. Two of mine are really difficult children and you would assume I was horrible as a parent if you saw them at their worst, but then how do you account for my other three who are pretty sweet and well-behaved? Secondly, I don't like the idea of people judging parents based on seeing their child for just a snippet of time. Kids have bad days just like adults do. My three-year-old is a wonderful, happy, easy-going girl, but if she's not feeling well or overly exhausted, she may throw a tantrum and I would hate to think you would think she or we were awful just because she was having a moment.

Finally, I'm perpetually offended by those on the DIS and other places who automatically assume bullies learn that behavior from their parents and that the parents don't care. I have two kids who have been bullies in situations at school. Both of them have NOT learned that behavior at home and don't act like that at home where they know we would never allow it and there would be consequences. They learned it at school on the playground from other kids and they're insecure and trying to impress people or fit in, and unfortunately they go to a lax school where bullying is not punished and generally acceptable. My husband and I deal swiftly and severely when we find out about an incident, but for six hours a day, they are not with us and learning their behaviors and habits from peers and the school mindset. They are not horrible people with horrible parents, they are just a little weak and don't have good problem-solving skills and got caught up in a social "moment" group dynamic at recess(not saying bullying is okay or justifying it, just explaining that it can be the result of other factors than parenting).

In my opinion, okay, judge parents if you really see them parenting and feel they really are the source of problems. However, please do not take one incident and assume the parents are awful without knowing how they react to the child's issue. It is very hard for parents of difficult children without the added burden of knowing that everyone is judging them.

 

[JerseyJanice]

Whether it's wrong or right, people do make judgments about other people's parenting skills when they see poorly behaved children.

However, I have known many people who went down the wrong path in life who had excellent parents. For example, one of my BFF's had a brother who became a heroin addicted thief and died from complications of AIDS. My BFF and her sister are two of the loveliest people you could ever meet. Their parents are awesome people and did a fine job raising their family, but one kid went completely off the track.

Good parents do turn out bad children sometimes. It's just human nature.

And I hate to say it, but adolescent bullying is partially human nature too. It's nothing new, it's just being reported and talked about lately. It certainly existed when I was growing up. I think that many kids engage in it as they're finding their way around social and peer pressure. It's not necessarily a reflection on parents.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

That said, parents have a limited window to influence their children. If they have not already developed the right relationship with their child before their teen years, they have almost no chance of turning that around when they are teens. Parents who work on behavior from a young age have already built the expectation that the child will have to answer for behavioral issues. Parents who only see snowflakes when they are young and are "shocked" to see a bully (or worse) later on in their lives have lost the chance to step in. Try as they might, their children have already learned to listen to other stimuli when judging their own behavior - the parents are all but locked out.

As adults, we see behavior in other children that we simply do not notice in our own. I am not sure why this is true, but it is. It is helpful to keep an open mind as a parent, and to listen very carefully when someone has a criticism of our children.

Parents are responsible for the care of their children. That means something different to everyone on this board. Good behavior or bad - I suspect that the parent has a lot less to do with the outcome than many think. Parents of good kids take credit, and parents of scoundrels shake their head in wonder.

Huh. That first statement makes a lot of sense with the youth pastor's daughter. Like I said, I've not met her, but a LOT of the bullying has to do with the fact that friend's daughter doesn't have everything in the world that is cool, and apparently this little girl gets whatever she wants immediately.(Which surprised me. On a youth minister's salary? I had a couple of friends in school who were youth minister's daughters. . .there was NEVER enough money for everything. We used to garage sale in secret together so they could get nice things.) It may well be the parents reaping what they've sowed and now are at a loss to figure out what to do about it at this late date.

The second paragraph is why I brought up my friend with the bullying daughter. She knows she's got to work hard with this child (she's only in the 2nd grade) and is reading up and studying and using every technique she can find. She's working with the fact that her daughter is a blunt, in your face, smarta** and trying to channel it into positive things. They're play acting and reading books written from the perspective of a bullied kid and setting rewards and punishments and encouraging her to make friends with differently abled kids and kids from all places in the economic spectrum. In the end though, she knows her daughter will, eventually, make her own choices. Still. . .I think I'm going to watch this friend's daughter grow up and see what happens.

Thanks for the insight!

 

[golfgal]

I have to make a point, it is impossible to raise kids in the "same way". Your oldest is the oldest, spent how many years being an only, 1, 3, 8?? Your other children have never known a time when they were the "only". This is just ONE example of how you really are not raising your kids in the same way. Your opinions of things change over time and you are not raising your children in the "same way".

 

[merryweather20]

I would only blame the parent for putting the child in a bad situation. I'd give a pass to bad behaviour at school and necessary family events, likewise I consider swimming lessone to be a safety issue so that would get a pass from me as well. If the parent constantly foisted their child upon every Karate, and dance school,and signed them up for tee-ball, scouts, and every course at the library that is not okay.

There was one little girl that was just everywhere when I was growing up. For years she was in my dance class and she would sit in the corner and scream for the entire lesson. I don't blame her mother for her behaviour, but I blame her mother for signing her up year after year when she knew the kid was an absolute blight on the dance studio.

Every one of the guidance counsellors at our school was knowledgeable capeable and hard-working. Every one of their kids cut class and did drugs.

And I also knew kids that had a tough life in foster care, and those whose parents were dedicated hippies and all of them grew up kind, sweet and caring.

I think parents do have influence, but I would never judge them for the end result.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I have to make a point, it is impossible to raise kids in the "same way". Your oldest is the oldest, spent how many years being an only, 1, 3, 8?? Your other children have never known a time when they were the "only". This is just ONE example of how you really are not raising your kids in the same way. Your opinions of things change over time and you are not raising your children in the "same way".

I agree. I only have two boys, and they are only 3 years apart, but their experiences in the same family have been very different. Either as a younger or older sibling, a child with different strengths/weaknesses, or a person with a different personality, they see every single event differently. So, even though they live in the same house, their lives are very different from their perspective. Even if everything else were a constant (our maturity as parents, our financial situation, our living conditions, our family, our social circumstances, our outlook, our country's political situation, etc), they experience different things. And, since almost none of the things above have remained the same, they have those differences which have changed their perspective.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

I disagree completely with this based on my experiences as a parent. First of all, I agree with those about personality. I'm raising all 5 of my kids the same way, but some are just more intense by nature, and even a little mean by nature. Two of mine are really difficult children and you would assume I was horrible as a parent if you saw them at their worst, but then how do you account for my other three who are pretty sweet and well-behaved? Secondly, I don't like the idea of people judging parents based on seeing their child for just a snippet of time. Kids have bad days just like adults do. My three-year-old is a wonderful, happy, easy-going girl, but if she's not feeling well or overly exhausted, she may throw a tantrum and I would hate to think you would think she or we were awful just because she was having a moment.

Finally, I'm perpetually offended by those on the DIS and other places who automatically assume bullies learn that behavior from their parents and that the parents don't care. I have two kids who have been bullies in situations at school. Both of them have NOT learned that behavior at home and don't act like that at home where they know we would never allow it and there would be consequences. They learned it at school on the playground from other kids and they're insecure and trying to impress people or fit in, and unfortunately they go to a lax school where bullying is not punished and generally acceptable. My husband and I deal swiftly and severely when we find out about an incident, but for six hours a day, they are not with us and learning their behaviors and habits from peers and the school mindset. They are not horrible people with horrible parents, they are just a little weak and don't have good problem-solving skills and got caught up in a social "moment" group dynamic at recess(not saying bullying is okay or justifying it, just explaining that it can be the result of other factors than parenting).

In my opinion, okay, judge parents if you really see them parenting and feel they really are the source of problems. However, please do not take one incident and assume the parents are awful without knowing how they react to the child's issue. It is very hard for parents of difficult children without the added burden of knowing that everyone is judging them.

Okay, this is true. The friend's daughter is at some sort of school thing today and I'm going to meet her and take her and her BFF to dinner at the end of the evening. (I have good ton, apparently, as I'm "exotic" and "worldly-wise". ME? ) Maybe I'll meet at least one mean girl and see for myself what's up.

 

[iwrbnd]

I think a child is born with a basic temperament and you can make it better or worse. After having four kids myself, I rarely judge a parent by their child's behavior. There are to many extenuating circumstances.

I was behind a lady in the checkout line who was having difficulty getting her child to stay by her. When she left the cashier said some negative things about her parenting and then complimented me for my child's behavior. I said "Thank you but I have one just like that other child, too." It didn't make me a better parent that I had my calm child with me. It just looked like it on the outside. We need to be careful when judging. Now, if that parent is being physically or emotionaly abusive, then judge away!

 

[luvsJack]

I have to make a point, it is impossible to raise kids in the "same way". Your oldest is the oldest, spent how many years being an only, 1, 3, 8?? Your other children have never known a time when they were the "only". This is just ONE example of how you really are not raising your kids in the same way. Your opinions of things change over time and you are not raising your children in the "same way".

ITA. Take my kids for example, ds28 was the only for 2 and a half years. Then ds25 was the youngest for 14 years and then along came dd. I had two children for 14 years and now dd is almost like an only. Of course they are being raised a bit differently.

For one thing, I can be a bit more lenient with dd as there is just one of her instead of her and a sibling. But, I am fairly certain that leniency will go the other way when she becomes a teen, starts dating, etc.

The other part of course is temperament. Oldest ds only needed talking to firmly and he complied easily--he hated to think he was in trouble at all and couldn't stand to be fussed at. Younger ds questions EVERYTHING. It was fairly necessary to make sure you explained to him WHY he was to act a certain way and then he would comply. DD is a combination of the two and since its just me and her usually, we can talk things out constantly.

 

[mjkacmom]

I have to make a point, it is impossible to raise kids in the "same way". Your oldest is the oldest, spent how many years being an only, 1, 3, 8?? Your other children have never known a time when they were the "only". This is just ONE example of how you really are not raising your kids in the same way. Your opinions of things change over time and you are not raising your children in the "same way".

This is a strange perspective coming from a mom of twins. My twins' behavior is like night and day. Dd7 is a people-pleaser, and very sensitive. If I ask her to do something, she says "yes mommy!" She tells me, several times a day, what a great mom I am, and how much she loves me. Ds7 is totally different. It takes an argument to get him to do anything. He's insensitive. He has little self control. I'm a SAHM, and they've done pretty much everything together.

 

[mjkacmom]

How do you handle that?

It sounds difficult. I know you stated you keep the relationships separate, but I would have a hard time with that. I'd want the kibosh on bullying no matter what.

It's hard. She only has one child, and admits he's a bit spoiled. He's also a follower, and just going along with the other boys. She is really one of the best people I know, and would do anything for everyone. I know she hates the situation.

 

[OceanAnnie]

It's hard. She only has one child, and admits he's a bit spoiled. He's also a follower, and just going along with the other boys. She is really one of the best people I know, and would do anything for everyone. I know she hates the situation.

Do you think she does enough?

ETA- The reason I ask is it seems to be ongoing. I had to let a friendship go because of an ongoing, unresolved issue.

 

[Kelrykengab]

I now cringe at the things I used to say and think about parenting before I had children. Do any of you remember saying "I will never let my kids have/do/get away with that when I am a parent?" prior to having your own kids?
Parenting is a very wonderful, inspirational, but very difficult blessing. As an educator/clinician and as a parent I have seen amazing kids come from not such amazing parents and I have seen very troubled kids come from great parents. I am not saying parents don't play a very important role in who their kids are, but it certainly is not the only factor.
My oldest is a button pushing, question asking, intelligent, tough, head strong, stubborn as a bull kid and has been from day one. He also has moments that make me feel like the luckiest Mom in the world. But he has moments (luckily never at school and seldom with friends) that I really have to shake my head at wondering what I have done wrong. He is a lot like my father who was a great man despite the same personality so I try to remind myself to hang in there. My 2 daughters (one of which is still very young I know) however, are sweet, kind, thoughtful and while very smart and can be stubborn pretty much never cause any problems. Raised by the same parents, given similiar /equal opportunities although dealt with a little differently based on their unique needs. I guess what I am trying to say is that I think we are all more than just who our parents made us and certainly all kids have their moments good and bad.

 

[Disney Doll]

Kids are going to do stupid stuff.

I think the issue is more the parents' response.

Some parenst respond appropriately, with guidance, punishment, discussion, whatever is necessary to get the child to understand that their behavior is unacceptable.

And some parents ignore it. We hear "he's only 4"...yes I know he's only 4 and I don't expect him to know the proper behavior for every situation but I do expect you to correct him at the grocery store when he's pulling all the apples off the counter and throwing them on the floor. And yes, I did witness this happen and that was Mommy's response.

I recall the parents of the Columbine killers interviewed after that horrible day and they said "Yes, the boys were very busy buidling something in the garage all weekend but we didn't want to invade their privacy so we didn't ask". These same 15 year old boys had the parts of a semi-automatic weapon on the bureau in their bedroom...these same boys who dressed totally in black and wore lipstick and nail polish...15 and 16 year old boys and their parents didn't want to invade their privacy?????????? Yes, I do blame their parents. They missed a lot, obviously, both while those boys were growing up and during that fateful time right before that massacre.

So yeah...there is some nature but there is also some nurture.

 

[NotUrsula]

Well, here's one: who is at fault for George Huguely?

I saw his mother, and it is obvious she is heartbroken and ashamed, though she says that she loves her son. I've been thinking about that family just lately: what could it be like to have one of your children do something like that?

 

[Mickey's Minion]

Okay, so I don't have kids, but I like kids, as they're the ones who will be here when I'm gone. I consider, over all, that small kids are a reflection on their parents. If the parents are kind and insist upon kindness and consideration for others from their kids, I hold those parents in high regard. But now I'm beginning to wonder how much older kids' behavior should be judged as a reflection of the parents.

I've had discussions with some parents recently. A friend's daughter bullied another girl earlier in the school year. This friend reacted in absolute horror and has been doing everything in her power to keep her daughter from being a mean girl as she gets older, and it seems to be working.

Another friend's daughter is being bullied in middle school by the youth pastor's daughter and the principal's daughter. They've said some truly nasty things and made fun of the friend's daughter incessantly for being overweight, poor and super smart and have really made her life miserable for about a year. The youth pastor and the principal have only paid their daughters' behavior lip service and the girls are still being mean girls.

As a result, I've lost all respect for the youth pastor and the principal. If they can't handle their own daughters, why in the world would anyone trust them with other people's kids? I haven't met this youth pastor, but honestly, I hope I don't. I don't know what I'd say to him except for a snide comment about barefoot shoemaker's children. . .

I'm a minister's daughter myself, and when I was growing up, my parents and my fellow PK's parents all endorsed the idea that we were our own people and our actions shouldn't be used as a judgement of our parents, but they all raised us with the lights of their beliefs.

What this mean was that a little wildness was acceptable (My mother used to actually suggest wild clothing choices to me, and I never had a curfew!) Acting cruelly or meanly would not have been, and not because of their public position, but because they'd publically declared their beliefs and they raised their children by their beliefs. (If I'd ever bullied another girl, my parents would've eaten me for breakfast, lunch and dinner; and I've been lucky if I was allowed out of my room for my 30th birthday!) We were never expected to be perfect, but we were expected to be the products of our parents' teaching about the truly important things, like having respect for others and showing empathy for others.

But then people who are parents tell me that at a certain point, kids have be responsible for themselves and that it may not be all chalked up to what parents "allow" or don't allow.

Just curious - at what age are parents not entirely responsible for their kids' actions, morally? And at what age do you think it's impossible to stop a girl from being a "mean girl"? Also, a completely separate question, but what responsibilities should there be for the kids of people whose profession requires them to be community leaders of high ethical/moral/religious standards? (I don't agree with a lot that the Duggars do, but I think they're handling that line very well, actually!)

Experts have yet to pin down what is nature vs. what is nurture. So if the experts can't figure it out if Freud is correct or Genetics, I don't think we can make definitive judgments on children's behavior vs. parenting.

I have seen great kids come from horrible parents and horrible kids come from great parents.

I would take each situation individually and get to know everybody before making pat judgments.

 

[MushyMushy]

I have to make a point, it is impossible to raise kids in the "same way". Your oldest is the oldest, spent how many years being an only, 1, 3, 8?? Your other children have never known a time when they were the "only". This is just ONE example of how you really are not raising your kids in the same way. Your opinions of things change over time and you are not raising your children in the "same way".

I think you're being a little nitpicky. When I say I've raised my kids the same way, I mean that I have had consistent values and rules throughout their lives. While they are two different kids, I'm the same parent to both of them. I'm smart enough to know that one kid might need harsher consequences than the other. One may need just a strong reminding, and the other might need privileges taken away. I have done nothing right in my parenting to warrant praise for having such a lovely daughter and nothing wrong to be blamed for my son's bad temperament when he was younger. I'm still the same mom.