Kerry and Bush supporters. A question for y'all.

Posted By Kendra17.....

John Kerry went before Congress and ADMITTED that he had committed war crime atrocities

An admission by an Officer of the United States military of the Commission of war crimes while wearing the uniform of the United States is a far more serious matter than the absence--apparently with permission--of a fighter pilot from his duty station in the continental United States.

Another tough choice...

Point out exactly where in the testimony Kerry said he had committed war crime atrocities or admit you were wrong.




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Originally posted by Saffron
First, what should Bush have said? How about something diplomatic. Being diplomatic doesn't mean "we have to back down".


You can't use diplomacy on a rabid dog.
 
Originally posted by peachgirl

Point out exactly where in the testimony Kerry said he had committed war crime atrocities or admit you were wrong.




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Something isn't right here.

I've heard the actual audio several times and I'm pretty sure I heard him say that he did participate in certain war crime activites like razing villages.
 
Originally posted by Elwood Blues
Something isn't right here.

I've heard the actual audio several times and I'm pretty sure I heard him say that he did participate in certain war crime activites like razing villages.

Sorry, the entire transcript has been posted and it's not there.

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Part of the transcripts:

Kerry on the June 30, 1971 broadcast of "The Dick Cavett Show”:

Now, on the question of war crimes, it's really only with the utmost consideration that we post this question. I don't think that any man comes back to this country to say that he raped or to say that he burned a village or to say that he wantonly destroyed crops or something for pleasure. I think that he does it at the risk of certain kinds of punishment, at the risks of injuring his own character which he has to live with, at the risks of the loss of his family and friends as a result of it, and he does it because he believes intensely that people have got to be educated about the devastation of this war.
...
I personally didn't see personal atrocities in the sense that I saw somebody cut a head off or something like that. However, I did take part in free fire zones and I did take part in harassment interdiction fire. I did take part in search-and-destroy missions in which the houses of noncombatants were burned to the ground. And all of these, I find out later on, these acts are contrary to the Hague and Geneva Conventions and to the laws of warfare. So in that sense, anybody who took part in those, if you carry out the applications of the Nuremberg principles, is in fact guilty.
...
Now, when we talk about something like war crimes, we're not throwing this term out lightly. The Hague Convention, the Geneva Conventions, history has laid down certain laws of warfare. Hague Convention, I believe, Article Four, states that you are not allowed to bombard uninhabited villages or villages that are not occupied by defendants. We have done that constantly in Vietnam.

Kerry on the April 18, 1971 broadcast of “Meet the Press”:

There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free-fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.
Kerry's April 23, 1971 testimony before the U.S. Senate:

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. …
We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum.

We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.

Take it for what its worth.
 
Originally posted by Laz
Part of the transcripts:

Kerry on the June 30, 1971 broadcast of "The Dick Cavett Show”:

Now, on the question of war crimes, it's really only with the utmost consideration that we post this question. I don't think that any man comes back to this country to say that he raped or to say that he burned a village or to say that he wantonly destroyed crops or something for pleasure. I think that he does it at the risk of certain kinds of punishment, at the risks of injuring his own character which he has to live with, at the risks of the loss of his family and friends as a result of it, and he does it because he believes intensely that people have got to be educated about the devastation of this war.
...
I personally didn't see personal atrocities in the sense that I saw somebody cut a head off or something like that. However, I did take part in free fire zones and I did take part in harassment interdiction fire. I did take part in search-and-destroy missions in which the houses of noncombatants were burned to the ground. And all of these, I find out later on, these acts are contrary to the Hague and Geneva Conventions and to the laws of warfare. So in that sense, anybody who took part in those, if you carry out the applications of the Nuremberg principles, is in fact guilty.
...
Now, when we talk about something like war crimes, we're not throwing this term out lightly. The Hague Convention, the Geneva Conventions, history has laid down certain laws of warfare. Hague Convention, I believe, Article Four, states that you are not allowed to bombard uninhabited villages or villages that are not occupied by defendants. We have done that constantly in Vietnam.

Kerry on the April 18, 1971 broadcast of “Meet the Press”:

There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free-fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.
Kerry's April 23, 1971 testimony before the U.S. Senate:

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. …
We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum.

We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.

Take it for what its worth.

Thanks, Laz!
 
Elwood ... Bush would have to know diplomacy to be diplomatic.

Are you saying something's not right, in that those aren't the actual Congressional Records that I posted? That I or my source manipulated them? :eek: I'm shocked!

Nope, that's the testimony, word for word. The only manipulation I did was take out some of the headlines to the testimony so I could fit the testimony onto one post here, but you can read the headlines for yourself. You'll see I didn't alter one single word of anyone's testimony. I've watched and listened to Kerry several times now (C-Span plays the testimony pretty often), and those are his words exactly. There's nothing "wrong" or fishy. I don't play those kinds of games.

Butttttttt! :teeth: Just because I was wondering if someone would question the actual record/transcipt I posted, I want you to know, I downloaded this particular copy of the transcipt from ... are you ready for this ...


FREEPNET! Linked there by Swiftboat Veterans for Truth! ROTFLOL! :eek: :teeth: :hyper: Here you go! LOL! :tongue:

You can find the testimony anywhere on the Internet, I wish I knew how to download the actual 40 page document, but I can only find it in PDF form and I don't know how to do that, and I don't know how to link to Acrobat Reader or I'd do that too. :)
 
Originally posted by Kendra17
Thanks, Laz!

For what? That's not the transcript. Interviews on television are not transcripts and even in those interviews he did not say what you claim...So....

One more time.....


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kerry went before Congress and ADMITTED that he had committed war crime atrocities
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An admission by an Officer of the United States military of the Commission of war crimes while wearing the uniform of the United States is a far more serious matter than the absence--apparently with permission--of a fighter pilot from his duty station in the continental United States.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Another tough choice...

Point out exactly where in the testimony Kerry said he had committed war crime atrocities or admit you were wrong.
 
Originally posted by Kendra17
Thanks, Laz!
Thanks for what ? Proving you wrong ? I wasn't aware that talk shows qualified as testimony before congress :rotfl:

(edited to add: drat, peachgirl beat me to it :teeth: GMTA ::yes:: )
 
By the way Laz...want to post a link to your sources?

And which is it..

Part of the transcripts or portions of interview on Meet the Press and Dick Cavett????

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Originally posted by BedKnobbery2
Actually, Kendra, I believe you can turn your own words on yourself.....it is NOT intellectually dishonest to disagree with an opinion. And although you STILL will not admit it, what you presented was exactly that--an opinion. And you posted opinions to back you up.

I find it intellectually dishonest to be unable to admit that there can be different views on the same facts; I agree, it is intellectually dishonest to isolate an arguement from it's historical context--which is EXACTLY what you were doing in regards to Carter's actions in Haiti. You were looking back on it, and making assumptions about the states of mind of the people who were involved. You were, in essence, writing your own history--because you were billing those assumptions as facts, when clearly they were not.

People said they did not know (as you claimed to know) that Clinton hated Carter. That doesn't mean they did not know the facts about what happened in Haiti; it means they didn't make the same assumptions you did regarding it. To assume--and assert--that they therefore had no idea what happened in Haiti is asinine, at best. No one was taking issue with what happened in Haiti--we were taking issue with the FACT that anyone who dared challenge your assertion that Clinton hated Carter were then told by you that they were stupid and ignorant.

At least we can agree on one point--I found that extraordinarily distasteful. And still do.

I have never said that there couldn't be different views on teh same events, but that's not what happened. When I asked you if you knew what events I was referring to, you obviously did NOT. When I summarized Carter's actions in Haiti, his comments in Bosnia, and his secretive letter-writing to the UN regarding the first invasion of Iraq, you challenged me to provide links to those stories--NOT to my regrettable assertion that Carter hated Clinton. WHen I stated that Carter hated Clinton, that was clearly an opinion. . .based on the information I summarized immediately after.

I never ONCE accused you or anyone else of stupidity and/or ignorance. . .ever.

That Carter undermined Clinton is actually a complete fact. That Clinton was upset regarding this fact is something I cannot prove.

Furthermore, you remove all arguments from their historical context. You can do that if you prefer, but when one DOES do that, he or she simplifies the issues in a way that ignores the bigger picture. The fact that no other President BUT Carter EVER behaved as he did--undermining Presidents Bush 1, Clinton (and Reagan and Bush 2, though I did not make a case in that thread for that) -- IS an important part of what I attempted to discuss. If you choose to ignore that, that's absolutely your prerogative--your OPINION to choose to do so, but the end result is the other party is forced into excluding points that, in fact, are relevant.

Let's agree I can't prove the statement that Clinton hated, or even strongly disliked Carter. For everything else we can agree to disagree.
 
Originally posted by peachgirl
By the way Laz...want to post a link to your sources?

And which is it..

Part of the transcripts or portions of interview on Meet the Press and Dick Cavett????

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Try this source:

Kerry's testimony before congress
 
The Dick Cavett Show and Meet the Press interviews that you quoted Laz are not part of the Congressional testimony that Kerry gave.

I do see though where he said, on the Dick Cavett Show

I personally didn't see personal atrocities in the sense that I saw somebody cut a head off or something like that. However, I did take part in free fire zones and I did take part in harassment interdiction fire. I did take part in search-and-destroy missions in which the houses of noncombatants were burned to the ground. And all of these, I find out later on, these acts are contrary to the Hague and Geneva Conventions and to the laws of warfare. So in that sense, anybody who took part in those, if you carry out the applications of the Nuremberg principles, is in fact guilty.

I think that backs up what I said earlier, that he did what he thought was the right thing to do at the time, only to be "enlightened" later on and then feel that he had committed atrocities, and he was trying to stop any more from happening.

And again, from Meet the Press:


There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down.

I have a hard time making myself clear, but I *think* you might be able to understand what I'm trying to say. In other words, just because our government doesn't call what he did an atrocity, they call and sanctioned his and all the other mens' actions as actions of war, for him it is a personal atrocity because of what our government ordered. It was after his service, that he learned about the policies in Vietnam, became angry and tried to stop anymore atrocities from taking place by speaking out against the war.
 
Originally posted by peachgirl
For what? That's not the transcript. Interviews on television are not transcripts and even in those interviews he did not say what you claim...So....

One more time.....


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kerry went before Congress and ADMITTED that he had committed war crime atrocities
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An admission by an Officer of the United States military of the Commission of war crimes while wearing the uniform of the United States is a far more serious matter than the absence--apparently with permission--of a fighter pilot from his duty station in the continental United States.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Another tough choice...

Point out exactly where in the testimony Kerry said he had committed war crime atrocities or admit you were wrong.

Mea Culpa, Peachgirl, thank goodness you are able to point out my error! Thank you very very much!

Kerry testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee:
They told their stories. At times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

He did not, as far as I know admit to his OWN war crimes to the committee. No, he only accused his fellow soldiers of this that day. You are correct, he admitted to participation of war crimes on Meet the Press and the Dick Cavett show.

I am INCORRECT. You ARE CORRECT. I WAS WRONG. YOU ARE RIGHT. Thank you for pointing that out.

So, if he admitted that he participated in these crimes on these nationally broadcast television programs, can we admit, then, that he is an admitted war criminal--according to his own statements?
 
Originally posted by Laz
Try this source:

Kerry's testimony before congress

Since when is Meet the Press or the Dick Cavett show congressional testimony?

I'd like the links to those transcripts from those shows. I've alread read the entire congressional transcript. That's how I know that anyone who says Kerry testified to witnessing or participating in war crimes is an out and out liar.

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No, he only accused his fellow soldiers of this that day.

Post that portion and prove it. He didn't accuse anyone, he related stories from soldiers that admitted to the things he testified to.



You are correct, he admitted to participation of war crimes on Meet the Press and the Dick Cavett show.

No, Kendra, he didn't. It was his opinon that the things sanctioned and considered legal warfare by our military were indeed war atrocities. But Kendra, they weren't, even if Kerry thought they should be.

So, you're still wrong and it's a reflection on your credibility when you can't admit it in an adult manner.

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This "war criminal" stuff is taken out of context and being spun a pretty good one on the CB today!


He was a criminal in a sense that his commanders told him to do what he was doing, and those commanders had commanders telling them, and on and on up the chain and he carried out his orders. He did nothing but follow commands. In the talk show interviews he said he did NOT commit nor see any personal atrocities. In the Congressional testimony he spoke in generalities.

It was after he returned from Vietnam that he found out what he was ordered to do was against the Geneva Convention. Are you willing to say that all the men who carried out the same sorts of missions that he did were war criminals, or just Kerry because he feels angry about it and wanted it to stop? In my opinion (my opinion, not Kerry's words), Kerry thinks the entire war was a crime and that each American man there was used in the worst possible way by our government/military.


Kendra ... Kerry didn't accuse anybody of anything. He repeated testimony given to him by about 150 soldiers so that he could give that testimony to Congress. If you bothered to read the sentences before your quoted entry where you accused him of doing that, you would have read that for yourself.
 
Originally posted by Kendra17
Mea Culpa, Peachgirl, thank goodness you are able to point out my error! Thank you very very much!

Kerry testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee:

He did not, as far as I know admit to his OWN war crimes to the committee. No, he only accused his fellow soldiers of this that day. You are correct, he admitted to participation of war crimes on Meet the Press and the Dick Cavett show.

I am INCORRECT. You ARE CORRECT. I WAS WRONG. YOU ARE RIGHT. Thank you for pointing that out.

So, if he admitted that he participated in these crimes on these nationally broadcast television programs, can we admit, then, that he is an admitted war criminal--according to his own statements?
Kendra, this is truly disgusting...His ACTUAL WORDS are right in front of you, why not try reading them. He said that those soldiers admitted to committing those acts, he didn't "accuse" them of doing anything at all.

Why can't you just admit that you're either wrong, or flat out lying ? Personally, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and think that you've just been duped by too much Sean Hannity :rotfl: But you are just plain WRONG in virtually everything you say. READ THE ACTUAL QUOTES, don't try to spin it...READ IT.
 
I think we disagree on an important fundamental issue.

That I made the mistake of saying Congress, does not change the fact that he did admit to participating in and committing atrocities and war crimes. And, he accuses others of this as well, stating this definitively. He does state that his own crimes weren't the sort of crimes that included cutting people's heads off, but he does state that other soldiers did commit even worse atrocities than his own admitted atrocities.

Yet, he also stated he was unaware of the laws against doing what he stated he did. So, does this mean that even though he states he did this, he's not really at fault because he was ignorant of the rules of warfare?

Here's a thought based on the above: Maybe this is why, later, the SBV are mostly united in standing against him? Maybe, and obviously this is conjecture and opinion, his lack of knowledge regarding what constitute war crimes and such while commanding, caused the Officers in Charge to state that he isn't fit for the Presidential office?
 















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