Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs

[Island_Lauri]

I know there are varied religious beliefs on this board and was wondering what people feel about this:

"An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.

Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion.

Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall.

Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss the pending legal dispute.

The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school.

"There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian.

Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January.

"This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox."

The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him."


You can read the entire article at:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481

 

[WDWHound]

Of all the ignorant, stupid, moronic decisions I have ever seen come from a judge, this is the worst! I hope they appeal. This is absurd. And since when is Wicca not main stream? Look around you, judge. This is a very common fiath today. And even if it weren't, so what? Why should it matter?

Yes, the conflict in the 2 faiths may be confusing, but the judge has no right to determine which faith is the only one that can be taught. Let the kid learn both and make up his own mind if his parents have different faiths.

 

[chadfromdallas]

The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him."


You can read the entire article at:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481

Good to see the ICLU stepping in here. How the heck can a judge be allowed to do this (ok, I read the explanation, but it sounds ridiculous! )

 

[lyeag]

This is crazy. The parents have him in a religous school and want to be Wiccans. Big deal. Lots of kids of various religions attend religous schools. Why should this be different? Having knowledge of other religions is a good thing....

 

[RealMickeysGirl]

Stomps all over the parent's rights to raise their child in the religion of their choice in my opinion. Especially since there is no dispute over which religion to bring the child up in between the parents - it is just the judges prejudice.

This happens all the time when one parent is Pagan. I know of a couple of people who had child custody problems because they didn't belong to "traditional" religions and their soon to be exes did.

I am sure there are even Athiests who end up sending their children to Catholic schools, if they get a good education it doesn't really matter what kind of religious school it is. Parents educate their children at home in what is acceptable for their family where religion is concerned.

 

[palmtreegirl]

 

[Caradana]

There has to be more to this story. I suspect there's some psychologist's report that says that the kid is seriously confused and troubled, or there's some other input factor that has led to this. Any reasonably bright person knows that this provision would never stand in a court of review otherwise, and outside of extremely rare events, judges don't intentionally add provisions that have no hope of standing in a court of review. Doing that makes a judge look like an idiot. Would you intentionally put yourself in a position to look like an idiot in your own job? Is this a state that elects their judges or one that nominates them from among a pool of standout attorneys?

I truly believe that the average judge is far less conflicted and far brighter than the average member of the legislature. This guy might be an exception, same way I think Joe Biden is an incredibly bright and straightforward exception in Congress, but I would hardly use this case as some example of mass failure/advocacy in the judiciary. If there's no grounds for this, it'll be quickly and easily tossed out in review. It's really barely worth getting upset over, I think.

 

[DawnCt1]

There has to be more to this story. I suspect there's some psychologist's report that says that the kid is seriously confused and troubled, or there's some other input factor that has led to this. Any reasonably bright person knows that this provision would never stand in a court of review otherwise, and outside of extremely rare events, judges don't intentionally add provisions that have no hope of standing in a court of review. Doing that makes a judge look like an idiot. Would you intentionally put yourself in a position to look like an idiot in your own job? Is this a state that elects their judges or one that nominates them from among a pool of standout attorneys?

I truly believe that the average judge is far less conflicted and far brighter than the average member of the legislature. This guy might be an exception, same way I think Joe Biden is an incredibly bright and straightforward exception in Congress, but I would hardly use this case as some example of mass failure/advocacy in the judiciary. If there's no grounds for this, it'll be quickly and easily tossed out in review. It's really barely worth getting upset over, I think.

For once I agree with you. This is a contentious divorce situation with the child in the middle. I am sure the judge has more information that what the press knows and what the parents have shared.

 

[Island_Lauri]

For once I agree with you. This is a contentious divorce situation with the child in the middle. I am sure the judge has more information that what the press knows and what the parents have shared.

I think you need to reread the article. It is NOT a "contentious divorce situation". It states:

"The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth."

As in both parents.

"Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show."

"Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall"

note: "over their fierce objections" "outraged parents"

"This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox."

The article goes on to state:

"Religion comes up most frequently when there are disputes between the parents. There are lots of cases where a mom and dad are of different faiths, and they're having a tug of war over the kids," Falk said. "This is different: Their dispute is with the judge. When the government is attempting to tell people they're not allowed to engage in non-mainstream activities, that raises concerns."

"As Wiccans, the boy's parents believe in nature-based deities and engage in worship rituals that include guided meditation that Jones says improved his son's concentration. Wicca "is an understanding that we're all connected, and respecting that," said Jones, who is a computer Web designer."

"I celebrate life as a duality. There's a male and female force to everything," Jones said. "I feel the Earth is a living creature. I don't believe in Satan or any creature of infinite evil."

 

[alabamaalan]

I think you need to reread the article. It is NOT a "contentious divorce situation".

Perhaps not, but in the original post you did quote:


"There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

This sounds like the point Caradana was making.

"I celebrate life as a duality. There's a male and female force to everything," Jones said. "I feel the Earth is a living creature. I don't believe in Satan or any creature of infinite evil."

Well, I can see how that might lead to a disagreement in a Catholic school.

However, I also believe in the parents' rights in this matter as it appears on the surface. Just because you do not espouse the religion of a parochial or private school does not mean you should not be allowed to attend.

Although I do think it is blatently unfair to a child if you do. (But that depends on how much spirituality/religion plays a part in the day to day teaching of the school)

 

[Blondy876]

While I don't quite understand why Wiccan parents would send their child to Catholic school I have even more trouble understanding why any judge would make such a ruling. Both the parents are upset about this, both the parents want to raise their child this way, what right does the judge have to say no? How many times will you find parents actually agreeing to anything in a custody dispute? Hopefully the judges decision will be overturned on appeal.

 

[Island_Lauri]

Perhaps not, but in the original post you did quote:


"There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

This sounds like the point Caradana was making.

True - but my response was to Dawn's comments and not Caradana. Also the paragraph right after the one you quoted above states:

"But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian."

 

[dcentity2000]

Stomps all over the parent's rights to raise their child in the religion of their choice in my opinion.

Is this not the choice of the child concerned? Most certainly they should be made aware of the rich tapestry of religions out there so that in time they may come to choose a belief system that best suits them



Rich::

 

[Cantw8]

Who is "Ms. Jones" ? I thought the mother's name is Tammie U. Bristol? That, in itself, speaks of the bias of the bureau...yes?

 

[Chuck S]

I'm sorry, this is just wrong. If both of the child's parents are in agreement as to what belief system should be introduced to their child, how can a court over rule it? To enforce this ruling, isn't the court going to have to define just what a "mainstream" religion is...and in effect then be forcing the child to be raised in one of those religions...how can that NOT violate the US constitution?

 

[Laz]

As a teacher in an Indiana Catholic school, I can tell you that he is getting an excellent education at Chatard. It is true that he will be taking a different religion course every semester. The child's religion courses could include: Old Testemant, New Testament, Morality, Apologetics, World Religions (which includes non-traditonal practices), Great Catholic Thinkers, Catholic Church History, and others that are not coming to mind right now.

I will offer another POSSIBILITY as to why the child attends Chartard: They do very well in sports and scholarship opportunities could be more abundant. I am not saying this is the reason, but it is a possiblity

 

[tlgoblue]

Glad to hear a Hoosier chime in on this. Even for Indiana, it is a rather extreme ruling. Maybe the school weighed in on the issue as it may have caused conflict with him and the school, rather than between his "conflicting" beliefs. I do find it interesting that a Hoosier can find some merrit to the Judges position. Not meant to be insulting to Hoosiers, but just illustrating why we have states, and are able to live in places that closely mirror our own views/beliefs.

Despite the father's claim to organising Pagan festivals, Wiccan is most definately not the norm in Indiana. In fact, I can tell you from experience that the majority of Hoosier communities, while "knowing" that Paganism is the "Devil's work", Wiccan may as well be Vegan. I can easily see where there would be problems for this youg man, attending a Christian faith school and trying to adhear to his Pagan beliefs. Still, the judge is wrong.

 

[DawnCt1]

I'm sorry, this is just wrong. If both of the child's parents are in agreement as to what belief system should be introduced to their child, how can a court over rule it? To enforce this ruling, isn't the court going to have to define just what a "mainstream" religion is...and in effect then be forcing the child to be raised in one of those religions...how can that NOT violate the US constitution?

In amicable divorces, the courts rarely get involved. There is a reason the court is involved in this situation. There is obviously more to the story than the parents are sharing.

 

[jgmklmhem]

On the face of it I defiantely don't agree with the ruling. Some of the underlying issues we don't know about could have made this ruling necessary. Maybe the school counselor filed a brief explaining extreme conflict in the child during counseling or something. I would assume the judge has sat down with the child in private for a chat so maybe the child wants to be Christian and his parents are forcing the Wiccan down his throat and the judge stepped in to help the child out in a sticky situation (since his parents are so adament about their beliefs being hard for the child to go against them). Again on the face of it it seems bizarre and wrong to make this type of judgement but I am not sure there isn't something else going on that was not reported.

 

[Laz]

Bishop Chatard is in a tricky situation. Catholic schools in Indiana are open to all students who want (or their parents want) an education based on Catholic values. All students must attend the religion classes, must stand and be respectful during prayer (which more than likely happens at the beginning of every period). and probably has to attend all-school masses. However, they would not push the child to join the Catholic religion. To do so would go against why the school exists.

IMO, I do not think we are seeing the whole story here. Something else is going on that has not been made public