Jesus wasn't resurrected

[magicmato]

It IS science fiction because the claims are so far fetched and they only have conjecture. It doesnt take a person of faith to see the total lack of credibility of this whole thing. People outside the Christian faith have denounced and disproven this as well. This thread was a discussion of the show so I am presenting my POV. This is an old story that has been proven false before.

SO, if Christians keep silent about it must be true. If Christians speak out against it, it must be true.

So, you feel that unless anything anyone presents as an alternate theory has to be completely provable? So much for the Bible and every other matter of faith then. You cannot prove that either. They are only presenting an alternate view. That is not what makes science fiction, for heaven's sake! If that is your gold standard, then all religion is science fiction as well.

 

[ead79]

I'm waiting until after I see it to say anything else about the documentary itself. It seems unfair to rate it positively or negatively until I'm able to see the whole thing, and I should have resisted the temptation to do so.

The article he posted sounds like something Jon Stewart or Saturday Night Live might do. Take the initial news story and run with it to find something funny. I'm usually snoring by the time those come on, but I'm sure they'll have a lot of fun with the reactions to it.

His editorial comment is just that-his comment. He's entitled to say it and I'm entitled to ignore it. I think I've pounded on him enough for one thread..

That's my take as well. I have the TiVo set to record it. It conflicted with some of my Sunday night shows, but luckily the Discovery Channel is re-airing it at 1 am on Monday morning, so that's when I'm taping it. From what everyone has said, it doesn't sound like there is any way at all to either prove or disprove it, so I'm interested to see Cameron's take on it, despite the fact that I don't believe it is the bones of Christ and his family based on my religious beliefs that Christ is alive. I'm not big into protesting or boycotting movies, shows, products, etc., so I don't know why people are doing that. I didn't see Passion of the Christ because I was concerned it would be too gorey for me (haven't seen Gladiator either).

 

[aquinas]

So, you feel that unless anything anyone presents as an alternate theory has to be completely provable? So much for the Bible and every other matter of faith then. You cannot prove that either. They are only presenting an alternate view. That is not what makes science fiction, for heaven's sake! If that is your gold standard, then all religion is science fiction as well.

Lets talk about the resurrection then. It is the cornerstone of Christianity. Paul says we are to be pitied without the resurrection. Let me ask you these questions about the resurrection

1. Why would a group of men whose leader has just been killed in the most humilating way that Jews would not even use on their own people. Why would this group of men who are fearing for their lives and are in hiding come out and start preaching Christ crucified? What embolden these men to do so?
2. Both the Jewish and Roman leaders were eager to crush this new religion. If Jesus wasnt resurrected then why couldnt the leaders of the day find any trace of the body. How about the Roman guards at the tomb? They would have been killed if they left their post.
3. Eyewitness accounts. 500 of them. Saw Jesus after he died.
4. In 2000 years, despite the claims of this pseudo-mentary, the bones of Jesus have not been found. Why?
4. Why would a Pharisee, Saul, who made it is business to murder Christians convert to Christianity and then preach about the resurrection?
5. If Jesus survived the cross and had a son, where did they go? Why werent the Jewish authorities and Roman authorities after Him?

Now lets compare that to what we have here in this "Lost tomb of Jesus"

1. Conjecture. Dispute about the actual names on the ossuaries. Some experts claim that they are not even using a proper translation.
2. Last year at this time, no coincidence, the Discovery Channel aired a program about the tomb of James which since then has been proven to be a fraud.
3. Using statistics to jump to a claim.
4. The "lost tomb of jesus" was found in 1980. Why 27 years to come forward with this? DNA evidence? that only shows two of the occupants werent related.
5. Leading archealogists are saying that Cameron is "pimping" the Bible and dismissing this all together
6. Why does this stuff about Christianity always appear around lent?

Which case is more credible?

One last question, how do you think Islamics would handle a documentary like the one in question on the claims of the Koran and Mohammed? That outright challenged the core of Islam?

 

[magicmato]

Lets talk about the resurrection then. It is the cornerstone of Christianity. Paul says we are to be pitied without the resurrection. Let me ask you these questions about the resurrection

1. Why would a group of men whose leader has just been killed in the most humilating way that Jews would not even use on their own people. Why would this group of men who are fearing for their lives and are in hiding come out and start preaching Christ crucified? What embolden these men to do so?
2. Both the Jewish and Roman leaders were eager to crush this new religion. If Jesus wasnt resurrected then why couldnt the leaders of the day find any trace of the body. How about the Roman guards at the tomb? They would have been killed if they left their post.
3. Eyewitness accounts. 500 of them. Saw Jesus after he died.
4. In 2000 years, despite the claims of this pseudo-mentary, the bones of Jesus have not been found. Why?
4. Why would a Pharisee, Saul, who made it is business to murder Christians convert to Christianity and then preach about the resurrection?
5. If Jesus survived the cross and had a son, where did they go? Why werent the Jewish authorities and Roman authorities after Him?

Now lets compare that to what we have here in this "Lost tomb of Jesus"

1. Conjecture. Dispute about the actual names on the ossuaries. Some experts claim that they are not even using a proper translation.
2. Last year at this time, no coincidence, the Discovery Channel aired a program about the tomb of James which since then has been proven to be a fraud.
3. Using statistics to jump to a claim.
4. The "lost tomb of jesus" was found in 1980. Why 27 years to come forward with this? DNA evidence? that only shows two of the occupants werent related.
5. Leading archealogists are saying that Cameron is "pimping" the Bible and dismissing this all together
6. Why does this stuff about Christianity always appear around lent?

Which case is more credible?

One last question, how do you think Islamics would handle a documentary like the one in question on the claims of the Koran and Mohammed? That outright challenged the core of Islam?

1.) One would have to accept the Bible as fact in order to use it as part of any argument. 2000 years from now, they may look in awe at the Harry Potter books and wonder how he did what he did. (No, I am not stating the bible is the same as Harry Potter, I am just making an analogy.)

2.) How do you know that the Romans did not find the body? History books are written with an eye to the message that they want people to believe, not based on fact without bias. Do you have any Roman writings that show they looked for the body of a man called Jesus and found it had disappeared?

3.) Link me please to where I can read these 500 accounts? Or do you mean the accounts in the Bible? (Or books removed from the Bible?)

4.) How do you know that the bones of Jesus have not been found? Do you expect there to be a neon sign or some miracle proclaiming them? Also, there is not actual proof Jesus ever existed, so if he did not exist, no really shock that his bones were not found, right?

5.) Bible again. No proof Saul even existed, let alone that he was a murderer who turned to Christianity...

6.) How do you know that the authorities were not after them? Hmm... no one now adays every goes underground because powerful people are after them, I guess, eh?

As for the rest, I can find you a ton of scholars who dispute Creationism, yet people continue to believe it. Why would you say that if it can be disputed by leading people, the theory should not be presented? If that is the case, then I guess Creationism should be considered antiquated now, right?

ETA: Since when is the argument "Other people do it, so why shouldn't we?" a valid argument? I am sure if Muslims protested something, you would say they were being rediculous. No one is stating Christianity is wrong or bad or invalid. The show just provides an alternate theory to Jesus's death.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

The show just provides an alternate theory to Jesus's death.

JUST??

Again, Jesus and His Resurrection is the cornerstone of Christianity.

Cameron's show will be about as revealing as Al Capone's vault with Heraldo.

 

[Fitswimmer]

JUST??

Again, Jesus and His Resurrection is the cornerstone of Christianity.

Cameron's show will be about as revealing as Al Capone's vault with Heraldo.

Why don't you wait until you see it to decide? All we have so far is publicity. Of course, they're putting all the most controversial aspects out there to get people to tune in or Tivo on Sunday night.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Why don't you wait until you see it to decide? All we have so far is publicity. Of course, they're putting all the most controversial aspects out there to get people to tune in or Tivo on Sunday night.

I'm predicting the results based on the experts not associated with the show (and on the history of these sorts of things).

Yes, Cameron & friends have done well with the publicity part.

 

[aquinas]

Why don't you wait until you see it to decide? All we have so far is publicity. Of course, they're putting all the most controversial aspects out there to get people to tune in or Tivo on Sunday night.

We have more than just publicity. The show has already been screened to certain people and there is a book that corresponds with it. Even though i plan to watch the show, you dont need to see it to know what the central claims of it are all about. Cameron and the other person involved have been making rounds in the media. Been on Larry King, Today show, and even held a press conference.

The central claim is that they found the bones of Jesus. What is there to decide about this show? How ridiculous it is?

 

[aquinas]

1.) One would have to accept the Bible as fact in order to use it as part of any argument. 2000 years from now, they may look in awe at the Harry Potter books and wonder how he did what he did. (No, I am not stating the bible is the same as Harry Potter, I am just making an analogy.)

2.) How do you know that the Romans did not find the body? History books are written with an eye to the message that they want people to believe, not based on fact without bias. Do you have any Roman writings that show they looked for the body of a man called Jesus and found it had disappeared?

3.) Link me please to where I can read these 500 accounts? Or do you mean the accounts in the Bible? (Or books removed from the Bible?)

4.) How do you know that the bones of Jesus have not been found? Do you expect there to be a neon sign or some miracle proclaiming them? Also, there is not actual proof Jesus ever existed, so if he did not exist, no really shock that his bones were not found, right?

5.) Bible again. No proof Saul even existed, let alone that he was a murderer who turned to Christianity...

6.) How do you know that the authorities were not after them? Hmm... no one now adays every goes underground because powerful people are after them, I guess, eh?

As for the rest, I can find you a ton of scholars who dispute Creationism, yet people continue to believe it. Why would you say that if it can be disputed by leading people, the theory should not be presented? If that is the case, then I guess Creationism should be considered antiquated now, right?

ETA: Since when is the argument "Other people do it, so why shouldn't we?" a valid argument? I am sure if Muslims protested something, you would say they were being rediculous. No one is stating Christianity is wrong or bad or invalid. The show just provides an alternate theory to Jesus's death.

1. Did you ever think about HOW Christianity was started? Even if you dont believe the Bible as fact, how did Christianity that is based on the humilating death on a cross of their Savior spread? How did that message last until now? Harry Potter? I wont even comment
2. If Romans OR the Jews did find the body, Christainity would have been dead. They would have pointed to the body of Christ as why the apostles were lying when they preached on the resurrection. Remember they wanted to wipe Christianity out.
3. Here again, why did SO many people accept the resurrection and thus Christianity as fact in the early times? Could it be they actually saw Jesus or kknew someone who did?
4. I know the bones have not been found because again, people would be presenting them to end christianity as we know it
5. Can you prove that Saul didnt exist?
6. The authorities were after Jesus when they crucified Him. Jesus knew it was coming. Did he go underground then? why not?

And you will find tons of scholars that dismiss evolution. Intelligent design is gaining more and more ground. Remember evolution is a theory with a lot of holes in it that does not proclude creationism from happening.

I asked a serious question that you sidestepped. How do you think Islamics would respond to a Discovery Channel show that challenged the core of Islam? Do you think they would just dismiss it as folly? Do you think even the moderate Islamic scholars would just keep quiet and not even respond? AND why dont we see these types of programs aimed at questioning the Islamic faith during Islamic holidays like we see produced about Christianity every Easter and Christmas?

 

[Fitswimmer]

We have more than just publicity. The show has already been screened to certain people and there is a book that corresponds with it. Even though i plan to watch the show, you dont need to see it to know what the central claims of it are all about. Cameron and the other person involved have been making rounds in the media. Been on Larry King, Today show, and even held a press conference.

The central claim is that they found the bones of Jesus. What is there to decide about this show? How ridiculous it is?

I still think it's fair to those who have worked on it to view the entire show before making a judgment about what is being presented. Personally, I know I began to judge it based on the Today show piece I saw and that really wasn't fair. The way I see it-I have 2 choices:

1. Watch the show, and base my conclusions on the entire material presented.

2. Don't watch the show, and let the whole matter drop.

 

[aquinas]

I still think it's fair to those who have worked on it to view the entire show before making a judgment about what is being presented. Personally, I know I began to judge it based on the Today show piece I saw and that really wasn't fair. The way I see it-I have 2 choices:

1. Watch the show, and base my conclusions on the entire material presented.

2. Don't watch the show, and let the whole matter drop.

The entire material that is going to be presented is already out there. On Larry King Live the other night they were debating the merits of the claims that are being made. It is not some big mystery on what is going to be on the show. It will just be more dramatic. Trying to connect the dots were you cant draw a straight line. The epitome of conspiracy theory.

 

[Fitswimmer]

The entire material that is going to be presented is already out there. On Larry King Live the other night they were debating the merits of the claims that are being made. It is not some big mystery on what is going to be on the show. It will just be more dramatic. Trying to connect the dots were you cant draw a straight line. The epitome of conspiracy theory.

So why are you going to watch it then? Clearly, you've made up your mind.

I'm trying to be open to it and fair about it. I would a non-Christian to come to anything supporting Christianity with an open mind and not condemn it out of hand before the entire thesis is presented.

 

[cardaway]

I still think it's fair to those who have worked on it to view the entire show before making a judgment about what is being presented. Personally, I know I began to judge it based on the Today show piece I saw and that really wasn't fair. The way I see it-I have 2 choices:

1. Watch the show, and base my conclusions on the entire material presented.

2. Don't watch the show, and let the whole matter drop.

The "experts" they believe have spoken. Who needs to watch the show and think for themselves when there are "experts" to make decisions for them?

 

[Laura]

1. Did you ever think about HOW Christianity was started? Even if you dont believe the Bible as fact, how did Christianity that is based on the humilating death on a cross of their Savior spread? How did that message last until now? Harry Potter? I wont even comment

That means nothing. Do you have any idea of the history of the place you're talking about? Do you know what kind of atmosphere reigned at that time? How many people could have claimed to be the Messiah?

Besides, how has any other religions or sects spread their own versions of the good news? How has Buddhism spread, or Islam? Do you think those religions are true, just because people believed in Buddha's and Muhammad's teachings?

2. If Romans OR the Jews did find the body, Christainity would have been dead. They would have pointed to the body of Christ as why the apostles were lying when they preached on the resurrection. Remember they wanted to wipe Christianity out.

There's no proof that Jesus existed in the first place.

3. Here again, why did SO many people accept the resurrection and thus Christianity as fact in the early times? Could it be they actually saw Jesus or kknew someone who did?

Tall tales abounded in those days; without satellite TV cameras set up outside the tomb, a story can grow and grow until it becomes bigger than the facts themselves.

4. I know the bones have not been found because again, people would be presenting them to end christianity as we know it

Again, Jesus may never have existed. The crucifixion may never have happened as it did in the Bible.

5. Can you prove that Saul didnt exist?

Can you prove he did? Heck, scholars are not sure that Shakespeare wrote all the plays he's credited for, and that's a lot more recent.

6. The authorities were after Jesus when they crucified Him. Jesus knew it was coming. Did he go underground then? why not?

You're talking like the Bible is a history book. It isn't.

And you will find tons of scholars that dismiss evolution. Intelligent design is gaining more and more ground. Remember evolution is a theory with a lot of holes in it that does not proclude creationism from happening.

Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of god or anything similarly supernatural. Evolution is a theory based on observable facts. And a few scholars disbelieve evolution. I wouldn't call them "tons" and "scholars" is shaky too.

I asked a serious question that you sidestepped. How do you think Islamics would respond to a Discovery Channel show that challenged the core of Islam? Do you think they would just dismiss it as folly? Do you think even the moderate Islamic scholars would just keep quiet and not even respond? AND why dont we see these types of programs aimed at questioning the Islamic faith during Islamic holidays like we see produced about Christianity every Easter and Christmas?

Marketing, hype, etc. Stuff about Islam wouldn't get as many viewers in this country, and a lot of people in the USA already think Islam is mallarkey, so some expose wouldn't be too scandalous to them. Simple fact.

 

[aquinas]

So why are you going to watch it then? Clearly, you've made up your mind.

I'm trying to be open to it and fair about it. I would a non-Christian to come to anything supporting Christianity with an open mind and not condemn it out of hand before the entire thesis is presented.

The entire thesis HAS been presented. It is out there. There is nothing going to be on the show that has not already been revealed. You can even read the book now and know what the show is going to be about.

No one is making decisions for me about this. I have reviewed what they have to say, read extensively, and I plan on watching the show. Just because the show hasnt aired doesnt mean that people can not have informed opinions out there. Like I said, there is no mystery on what is going to be presented on the show like you seem to think that some bombshell is going to be dropped that hasnt already been discussed and debated already. In fact, this is nothing new, the BBC ran a special just like this 10 years ago making similar claims. The main difference is now they are producing DNA analysis.

 

[aquinas]

The "experts" they believe have spoken. Who needs to watch the show and think for themselves when there are "experts" to make decisions for them?

Still waiting on those scientific "experts" to show us some irrefutable proof that this is actually Jesus' tomb and bones.

All the information and "evidence" has already been revealed. You can review everything out there for yourself.

You arent being rude are you and suggesting that Christians dont think for themselves are you? I thought rudeness on this thread was just limited to the Christians. Reaching again I see.

 

[magicmato]

1. Did you ever think about HOW Christianity was started? Even if you dont believe the Bible as fact, how did Christianity that is based on the humilating death on a cross of their Savior spread? How did that message last until now? Harry Potter? I wont even comment
2. If Romans OR the Jews did find the body, Christainity would have been dead. They would have pointed to the body of Christ as why the apostles were lying when they preached on the resurrection. Remember they wanted to wipe Christianity out.
3. Here again, why did SO many people accept the resurrection and thus Christianity as fact in the early times? Could it be they actually saw Jesus or kknew someone who did?
4. I know the bones have not been found because again, people would be presenting them to end christianity as we know it
5. Can you prove that Saul didnt exist?
6. The authorities were after Jesus when they crucified Him. Jesus knew it was coming. Did he go underground then? why not?

And you will find tons of scholars that dismiss evolution. Intelligent design is gaining more and more ground. Remember evolution is a theory with a lot of holes in it that does not proclude creationism from happening.

I asked a serious question that you sidestepped. How do you think Islamics would respond to a Discovery Channel show that challenged the core of Islam? Do you think they would just dismiss it as folly? Do you think even the moderate Islamic scholars would just keep quiet and not even respond? AND why dont we see these types of programs aimed at questioning the Islamic faith during Islamic holidays like we see produced about Christianity every Easter and Christmas?

1.) Yes, I have thought about how Christianity started. Same goes for how all the other religions have started and spread. To use that as a basis of fact is silly. Buddhism was started and thrived. But I know you would say that is not a valid religion. So your point is moot.

2.) They may well have, and the followers of Jesus just refused to believe or perhaps they wanted to continue their faith and thought Jesus would have gotten a kick out of the whole thing because they knew he had a sense of humor. Heck, look at modern times. We all know that the Holocaust happened, we have movies and pictures and first hand accounts to prove it too. Yet there are many, right here in this country where information is widely distributed and freely available that do not believe it. Why is it hard to believe that in an era where word-of-mouth was the only news source, information was ignored or suppressed? If you believed Jesus was god and you heard someone was claiming they found his body, chances are you would have scoffed and said it was the Romans just trying to suppress your religion.

3.) Why do so many people believe in ghosts? Could it be they have seen one? Why do so many peole belong to other religions? Could it be they have found truth in them? Really, is it so hard to believe that people could believe in someone or something without concrete proof of a resurrection? Um... have YOU seen a resurrection lately? Yet you still believe...

4.) Your point is rediculous. Jesus could be lying in a museum as an example of an ossuary and you would never know it because... *tada* ... you would not know it was *the* Jesus. Heck, this ossuary could be Jesus, but everyone screams that there is no way, because Jesus would never be in an ossuary... I really doubt that if Jesus lived and died and was placed in an ossuary, that there would be billboards proclaiming who it is within. If anything, the tomb would be more non-descript to keep it from being defiled.

5.) I have no need to prove he did not exist any more than I need to prove that Jesus did or that the Bible is not fact. I am not using them to prove my argument.

6.)I could care less to debate what Jesus did or did not do, considering I am not even convinced the Bible is literal fact. Was there a Jesus? Perhaps. Did everything happen *exactly* as described? I doubt it.

Your comments about Islam/Muslims, etc, are just silly. You and I both know that they would be very angry... but guess what? Most of them come from a very fundamental society where such things are not allowed. Last I checked, we were still allowed freedom of thought and expression in the US. You will just have to deal with that fact. Besides, in this country, Christians are the majority and the majority very often finds themselves held to the light more than other groups. Check out the racial and political divides in this country if you do not believe me. The minorities always talk about the majority. You will just have to accept it and move on.

 

[JoyG]

I didn't see Passion of the Christ because I was concerned it would be too gorey for me (haven't seen Gladiator either).

Me neither!

I heard Mel released a less gruesome version, but unfortunately I never got around to seeing that one either. Maybe one of these days...

 

[ford family]

The entire thesis HAS been presented. It is out there. There is nothing going to be on the show that has not already been revealed. You can even read the book now and know what the show is going to be about.

No one is making decisions for me about this. I have reviewed what they have to say, read extensively, and I plan on watching the show. Just because the show hasnt aired doesnt mean that people can not have informed opinions out there. Like I said, there is no mystery on what is going to be presented on the show like you seem to think that some bombshell is going to be dropped that hasnt already been discussed and debated already. In fact, this is nothing new, the BBC ran a special just like this 10 years ago making similar claims. The main difference is now they are producing DNA analysis.

Have you tried to analyse why you feel so threatened by this?

ford family

 

[The_Horned_King]

Lets talk about the resurrection then. It is the cornerstone of Christianity. Paul says we are to be pitied without the resurrection. Let me ask you these questions about the resurrection

Why is this the cornerstone shouldn't his teaching be the cornerstone?

1. Why would a group of men whose leader has just been killed in the most humilating way that Jews would not even use on their own people. Why would this group of men who are fearing for their lives and are in hiding come out and start preaching Christ crucified? What embolden these men to do so?

First you have believe the was crucified seeing as there is NO proof other then your bible that he was((Not even in the roman records. They kept trak of everyone they crucified))

2. Both the Jewish and Roman leaders were eager to crush this new religion. If Jesus wasnt resurrected then why couldnt the leaders of the day find any trace of the body. How about the Roman guards at the tomb? They would have been killed if they left their post.

First the reason they both wanted to crush it was this.....it was not thier believes asn was nothign more then what we call a cult today. Why did the FBI take out Wako?? Why do the Christians hate the muslams??? You believe in different stuff. The romans believed in many god...to them the thought of a single god was blasphemy! The jews didn't believe he was the messiah. why woulkd you not want to crush a falsehood...just like you are doing with your Crushing of this documentary!

As for them leaving their spot. The Romans would Not have even wasted their time guarding a tomb. If he was dead why alocate resources to do this??? It would be like the us army having us guard a graveyard..no reason!

3. Eyewitness accounts. 500 of them. Saw Jesus after he died.

What 500 people??? Nice of you to contradict the bible that had all of mary seeing him.

4. In 2000 years, despite the claims of this pseudo-mentary, the bones of Jesus have not been found. Why?

How woudl you know??? I probably could find 20 tombs of Jesus in the "holy" land and how could you ever know it was the jesus or not??? It's not like we can say I have a lock of jesus' hair if his bones dna match we got him....

Fact of the matter is IF he didn't die on the cross my guess is he took off from that place and made a life else where.

5. If Jesus survived the cross and had a son, where did they go? Why werent the Jewish authorities and Roman authorities after Him?

In thouse days it would have been so easy to leve under the cover of the night or day and no one would know the better. You could go one town over and practically start a new life. IF Ben Laden can escape the Us army with all it's spys and tech....why wouldn't jesus be able to escape a few soulders with no tech?

My belief is that he went into france.